Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?

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squirt:
(1) Not all people worship the same god(s);
(2) There are specific basic characteristics attributed to God in Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are non-contradictory. There is disagreement on the specific ‘actions’ taken by God. And in addition, there are, anthropomorphically speaking, differences in perceptions of His ‘personality’ , but not in terms of His ‘basic’ nature.
(3) No 2 Catholics have the same image of God … they agree in terms of basic characteristics, but His exact nature is unknowable and we all have different ‘pictures’ of who He really is.
That is all correct. But your argument #3 leads to agnosticism, doesn’t it? Is that “weak” agnosticism? 🙂
Now, how do you distinguish God (Abraham’s that is) from Zeus, Odin, and a bazillion other dieties? They all have common attributes as well (like being a diety). Do you think, *all *religions worship the same god? Then what about Satanists? Or, now it gets really complicated, Catharians?
 
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AnAtheist:
That is all correct. But your argument #3 leads to agnosticism, doesn’t it? Is that “weak” agnosticism? 🙂
Now, how do you distinguish God (Abraham’s that is) from Zeus, Odin, and a bazillion other dieties? They all have common attributes as well (like being a diety). Do you think, *all *religions worship the same god? Then what about Satanists? Or, now it gets really complicated, Catharians?
I won’t be around a computer for the rest of the day, but:

as for all worshipping the same god (see 1)

agnosticism - not if there is a belief in a god

Zeus, etc — characteristics much different from God … they lack perfection, for one … many other rudimentary differences

Satanism: NO — Satan is an angel, not a god

Cathares — ‘heretical’ Christians — same God

I’ll get back to you tomorrow

Take care!
🙂
 
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squirt:
Cathares — ‘heretical’ Christians — same God
Uh oh, you do know that the Catheres believed that the Demiurg, who may be identified as Satan as he is the supreme evil being, created this world and all on it? And that the good God (I don’t remember his name right now) doesn’t give sh*t about earth, but awaits the souls of the good guys in paradise?

How can that be the same god, if he is not the creator of life? :ehh:
 
First one point of clarification. Contrasting “Allah” with “God” already begins from the assumption that the two are distinct and does so in a very faulty manner. Saying “Allah is not the same God” is like saying “Dios is not the same God” or “Gott is not the same God.” Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. Arabic Christians and Arabic Jews pray to Allah when they pray in the Arabic language. And they were doing so before Muhammed wrote down the Koran.

Logically, the object of Muslim devotion and that of Christians must be identical. Both worship the being who by definition is the only member of a single element class. That is why it makes grammatical–but not logical–sense to say “Allah is not the same God.” “God” is used in this sense as a class. But it is a class that contains only one element: God Himself. If the Muslim Allah is not identical with the Judeao-Christian God, then Allah is not even in the God class. It would then no more make sense to say “Allah is not the same God that we worship” than it would be to say “My custard is not the same planet as Earth.”

Muslims believe falsities about God, the one God, the only God there is. When they say Jesus is not the Son of God, they are wrong–precisely because they have made a false statement about God.

In another sense it has to be the same God. They believe the object of their worship to be the God who made Adam, who spoke to Abraham, who gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments, the God who made a virgin with child, the God who raised Jesus to Heaven and will send him back to earth on the Last Day as divine Judge. (Yes, Muslims believe that.) If you think that God is not the “same” as your God, then you have to believe these statements must mean a different Abraham, a different Adam, a different Jesus. But, no, Muslim says. He is referring to the same ones you are. Who are you to tell him that he does not mean what he says he means?
 
The CCC says yes. What do Muslims say? About a year ago I asked someone who was Muslim. I posed the question in this way: “Do you worship the same God as the Jews, known as Elohim (YHVH)?” Her reply was: “There is only one God, Allah, no other Gods exist. So then the Jews must worship Allah, since he is the only God, so… yes.” As Catholics, we worship the only God, Elohim, the God of the Jews. Some say Allah is a translation of the word God, while others say Allah was an ancient moon god. If I want straight answers, I think I’ll stick to the Catechism. The catechism says yes. But I must admit, the whole issue is confusing :hmmm:.
 
It is my understanding that every time God appeared and spoke throughout the Old Testament, is that it was the second person of the Trinity, the pre-incarnate Christ.

Now if Moslems reject Christ as being God, then they are in effect rejecting the very One who they claim to worship.

I’m really not sure where that puts them.

John.
 
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AnAtheist:
Uh oh, you do know that the Catheres believed that the Demiurg, who may be identified as Satan as he is the supreme evil being, created this world and all on it? And that the good God (I don’t remember his name right now) doesn’t give sh*t about earth, but awaits the souls of the good guys in paradise?

How can that be the same god, if he is not the creator of life? :ehh:
Good point.

Some ‘Cathares’ where strong dualists, espousing an equality between a ‘good’ god and an ‘evil’ god. For the strong dualists, you’re right. Definitely can’t be considered monotheists, and can’t be the same god.

Others were weak dualists, where the ‘evil one’ was a creature made by God, and the ‘evil one’ then created material things. So, I guess my original answer is a bit of a stretch, but we have a monotheistic God as first cause. And they also took stock in the teachings of Christ. (I don’t know whether or not they believed in the prophetic aspects of the ‘standard’ Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition.)

For the weak and strong dualists, all spiritual elements were created by God. Cathares, like those in the J-D-I tradition believed that man has a spiritual aspect, and in that sense, God is the creator of spiritual life.

For weak dualists, God is the ‘first cause’ of all life.
 
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A.Pelliccio:
They pray to a pagan sun “god” . . . last time i checked thats not the Lord thats more like Apollo.
They claim to pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The word “Allah” though used to refer to a specific god of the Sun, but now is used exclusively as the general term for “God”
 
None of you muslim apoligists have ever actually read the hateful screed of the Qua’ran have you.

Islam is the mirror image of Christianity, for one simple reason - it was inspired by Lucifer. Lucifer wanted to be like God remember? Well now he has about a billion worshippers.

Lucifer found a illiterate, Pagan man with low moral character and appeared to him as an Angel of Light.

The doctrine that came out of that authorize murder, incest, polygamy, piratry and pretty much every other crime man has ever thought of.

The ‘mirror’ effect:

There is no free will in Islam. Works, faith are irrelevant. Allah condemns or exalts souls on a whim, and he doesn’t care.

**Bukhari:V6B60N473 “Every created soul has his place written for him either in Paradise or in the Hell Fire. His happy or miserable fate is predetermined for him.”
**Bukhari:V6B60N473 “While we were in a funeral procession, Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Every created soul has his place written for him either in Paradise or in Hell. They have a happy or miserable fate predestined for them.’ A man said, ‘Apostle! Shall we depend upon what is written and give up doing deeds? For whoever is destined to be fortunate, will join the fortunate and whoever is destined to be miserable will go to Hell.’”
Tabari I:306 “The Messenger said, “Allah created Adam and then rubbed Adam’s back with his right hand and brought forth his progeny. Then He said, ‘I have created these as the inhabitants of Paradise.’ Then he rubbed his back with His left hand and said, ‘I have created those for the Fire, and they will act as the inhabitants of the Fire.’ A man asked, ‘O Messenger, how is that?’ Muhammad replied, ‘When Allah creates a human being for Paradise, He employs him to act as the inhabitants of Paradise, and he will enter Paradise. And when Allah creates a human being for the Fire, He will employ him to act as the inhabitants of the Fire, and will thus make him enter the Fire.’”
*Tabari I:305 *“Then Allah rubbed Adam’s back and brought forth his progeny. And every living being to be created by Allah to the Day of Resurrection came forth. He scattered them in front of him like tiny ants. He took two handfuls and said to those on the right, ‘Enter Paradise! And He said to the others, ‘Enter the Fire! I do not care.’”

Did you catch this? :“How many are the people of the Fire?” Allah will say, “Out of every thousand take out nine-hundred and ninety-nine persons.
Allah damns 999 out of every 1000 people, no wonder the Muslims are lined up to guarantee their place.
 
**Qur’an 72:15 “But the Qasitun (disbelievers) are the firewood of hell.”
Qur’an 7:41 “They shall have a bed on the floor of Hell and coverings of fire; this is how We reward them.”
Qur’an 104:4 “He will be sure to be thrown into that which breaks him into pieces, flung to the Consuming One. And what will explain to you that which Breaks him into Pieces, Consuming and Crushing? It is the fire kindled by Allah which leaps up over them penetrating the hearts of men.” [Allah is in hell, kindling the fire.]
Qur’an 79:1 “I swear by those who violently tear out (the souls), and drag them to destruction.”
Qur’an 87:12 “They will be flung in to burn in the great Fire (and be made to taste its burning, in which they will then neither die nor live?”
*Qur’an 88:1 *“Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”
Qur’an 88:6 “They shall have no food but a poisonous plant with bitter thorns, which will neither nourish nor satisfy hunger.”
Qur’an 90:19 “But those who reject Our Signs, Proofs, and Verses, they are the unhappy Companions of the Left Hand. Fire will be their awning, vaulting over them.”
Qur’an 66:6 “Believers! Save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are angels stern (and) severe as wardens, who flinch not (from executing) the commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded.”
Qur’an 47:15 “Those who shall dwell forever in the Fire are given to drink boiling water that tears their bowels to pieces, and cutting their intestines to shreds.”
Bukhari:V8B76N548 “The Prophet said, ‘Protect yourself from the Fire.’ He turned his face aside as if he were looking at it and said, ‘Protect yourself from the Fire,’ and turned his face aside as if he were looking at it, and he said for the third time till we thought he was actually looking at it: ‘Protect yourselves from the Fire.’”
Bukhari:V8B76N547 “The Prophet said, ‘All of you will be questioned by Allah on the Day of Doom. There will be no interpreter between you and Allah. And the Hell Fire will confront you. So, whoever among you can, save yourself from the Fire.’”
*Qur’an 21:98 *“Verily you (disbelieving Infidels), and the gods that you worship besides Allah, are the fuel for Hell, faggots for the fire! Certainly you will enter it! Had their (idols) been (real) alihah (gods), they would have kept them out of Hell. Therein, sobbing will be your lot. Breathing with deep sighs, roaring. You will hear nothing but wailing and groaning.”
Qur’an 18:108 “And We shall present Hell that day for disbelievers to see, all spread out in plain view…. Verily We have prepared Hell for the hospitality of the Infidels; Hell is for the disbeliever’s entertainment.”
**
 
**Qur’an 77:29 “It will be said: Depart to the doom those who used to deny! Depart to a shadow of smoke (from the Hell Fire) ascending in three columns, which yields no relief or shelter and is of no use against the fierce blaze. Verily, (Hell) throws off sparks huge as castles as if they were yellow camels.”
*Qur’an 78:21 *“Truly Hell is as a place of ambush, a resort for the rebellious. A dwelling place for the disbelievers. They will abide there forever. Therein they taste neither coolness nor any drink save a boiling water and a fluid, dark, murky, intensely cold, paralyzing, a dirty wound discharge. It is a fitting reward for them.”
*Qur’an 84:10 *“Soon will He cry for perdition, invoking destruction, throwing them into the scorching fire. They shall enter the fire and be forced to taste its burning.”
Qur’an 85:1 “I swear by the Zodiacal Signs, woe to the makers of the pit of fire. Cursed were the people.” Qur’an 85:5 “The Fire is supplied abundantly with fuel.”
Qur’an 101:8 “He whose balance is light will abide in a bottomless Pit. And what will make you know what it is? It is a fire blazing fiercely!”
*Qur’an 56:92 *“But if he (the dying person), be of the denying (on the Day of Doom), erring (away from Islam), then for him is the entertainment with boiling water and roasting in hell fire. Verily. this is the absolute truth with certainty, so celebrate (Muhammad).”
*Qur’an 52:14 *“‘This,’ it will be said, ‘is the Fire, which you used to deny! Is this a magic fake? Burn therein, endure the heat; taste it. It’s the same whether you bear it patiently, or not. This is My retaliation for what you did.’”
Qur’an 55:41 “The sinners will be seized by their forelock and feet. This is the Hell the sinners called a lie. They will go round and round between its fierce fires and boiling water. Which of the favors of your Lord will you then deny?”
Qur’an 40:18 “Warn them of the Day of (Doom) that is drawing near, when hearts will jump up and choke their throats, filling them with anguish. And they can neither return their hearts to their chests nor throw them out. No friend nor intercessor will the disbelievers have. (Allah) knows of (the tricks) that deceive with treachery, and all that the bosoms conceal.”
Qur’an 40:46 “In front of the Fire will they be brought and exposed morning and evening: And (the sentence will be): ‘Cast the People of Pharaoh into the severest torment, the most awful doom!’ Behold, they will argue noisily with each other while they wrangle in the Fire! The weak ones (who followed) will say to those who had been arrogant, ‘We but followed you. Can you then take (on yourselves) from us some share of the Fire? The arrogant will say: ‘We are all in this (Fire)! Truly, Allah has judged between slaves!’”
Qur’an 40:9 “Those in the Fire will say to the guards and keepers of Hell: ‘Pray to your Lord to lighten the torment for a day!’ They will say: ‘Did there not come to you your Messengers with Clear Signs?’ They will say, ‘Yes.’ ‘Then pray (as you like)! But the prayer of the disbelievers is futile (and will go unanswered)!’ They will present their excuses, but they will (only) have the curse and the home of misery.”
Qur’an 13:5 “Those who deny will wear collars and chains, yokes (of servitude) tying their hands to their necks; they will be the inmates of Hell.… They will witness Our (many) exemplary punishments! Verily, your Lord is severe in retribution.”
Qur’an 21:37 “I will show you My Signs; then you will not ask Me to hasten them! They say: ‘When will this (come to pass) if you are telling the truth?’ If only the unbelievers knew (when) they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor from their backs! Nay, it will come to them all of a sudden and stupefy them, and they will be unable to repel it or avert it.”
Qur’an 4:55 “Sufficient for them is Hell and the Flaming Fire! Those [Jews] who disbelieve Our Revelations shall be cast into Hell. When their skin is burnt up and singed, We shall give them a new coat that they may go on tasting the agony of punishment.” **
 
In Christianity Heaven is place of knowledge, peace, love etc…
In Islam, Heaven is a brothel:

prophetofdoom.net/quotes4.html#paradise
**
And remember since 999 out of 1000 souls are damned, about the only way to get there is to kill for Allah

prophetofdoom.net/quotes1.html#martyrs**

Oh an incidentally you see from these passages Allah exalts those with wealth, more precisely he rewards his followers that kill and pillage with wealth - a long way from “it is as hard for a rich man to enter heaven”

prophetofdoom.net/quotes4.html#money

Digest all that - there is plenty more where that came from.

Christianity teaches the value of Chastity, Islam condones fornication, adultery, pedofilia and incest:

prophetofdoom.net/quotes4.html#lust

Worship the same God? I don’t think so, but the next time you hear America referred to as the “Great Satan” remember than the word Satan means adversary - a word that goes both ways. God is Lucifer’s adversary just as Lucifer is God’s.
 
If we suppose there is only one god, and he is the god worshipped by Christians…

If Muslims do not worship the god Christians worship, then they do not worship god.

So why are Christians talking about more than one god? Is there a Christian god and a Muslim god?
 
They may have a perverted view of what “Allah” (it’s just the Arabic for God, not the word for a pagan God) or God is or what He does, doesn’t mean that this God is not the same God we worship.

God is not bound to do or to be what His worshipers believe He is or does.

The Cathecism itself says that Muslim and Jews worship the One Supreme Creator, the God “Who Is”, the same God we worship. So that’s that.

“When Rome speaks, the matter is settled.” – St. Augustine.
 
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Ken:
If we suppose there is only one god, and he is the god worshipped by Christians…

If Muslims do not worship the god Christians worship, then they do not worship god.

So why are Christians talking about more than one god? Is there a Christian god and a Muslim god?
There is God and there are gods.One true, the others false. Just because someone calls something a god, doesn’t make it God.
Allah was a pagan moon god in Arabia long before he got elevated to being God.
Actually early suras in the Qua’ran refer to the name of God as Ar-Rahman.

prophetofdoom.net/quotes3.html#arrahman

Then it changes and becomes Allah, doesn’t sound like monotheism to me

prophetofdoom.net/quotes3.html#allah

Be aware that nothing in Islam was written down for about 300 years after Mohammad’s death. A far cry from the Gospels and letters we have written by witnesses to the events themselves.
Returning to Smith’s debate paper, we find: “Obviously, the first question which we must ask is why these Traditions were written so late, 150 to 300 years after the fact? We simply do not have any account from the Islamic community during the initial 150 years or so. Not a single document has been found that can be traced to the period between the first Arab conquests of the early seventh century and the appearance of the Sira-Ta’rikh-Hadith collections of Ishaq, Tabari, and Bukhari towards the late eighth and ninth century. ‘As historians and scholars, we would expect to find, in those intervening two centuries, at least remnants of evidence for the development of Islam; yet we find nothing,’ say Nevo, Crone, and Wansbrough. And that means the totality of the Islamic conquests from Spain to India were complete before the first verse of Islamic scripture was written or retained.
“A few Muslims disagree, maintaining that there is evidence of an earlier Tradition called the Muwatta by Malik ibn Anas. He died in 795 A.D. Yet even a cursory review shows this collection was comprised of ‘schooled texts,’ transmitted and developed over several generations. More incriminating still, they follow ‘Shafi’i’s law’ which demands that all Hadith be traced to Muhammad by way of isnad. Yet the law and its observance did not come into effect until after 820 A.D.”
 
I would like to thank everyone for their replies. From what I have read the following seems to be true. Let me know if this is not the case.
  1. According to Church teaching, Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.
  2. Muslims and Christians have different understandings of God. The Muslims revelation of God is inferior to the fullness of truth that the Catholic revelation of God possesses. (There must be a distinction made between believing in a specific God and believing a particular revelation from God about his nature (3 persons).)
  3. Muslims have a different understanding of the exact nature of God, but they firmly believe that there can only be one Eternal Creator and thus Christians and Muslims must be worshiping that same Creator (the God of Abraham).
  4. Muslim beliefs and the Koran are filled with numerous errors regarding the nature and acts of God and about what Christianity really is.
  5. Pellman made a very good point. “Logically, the object of Muslim devotion and that of Christians must be identical. Both worship the being who by definition is the only member of a single element class. That is why it makes grammatical–but not logical–sense to say “Allah is not the same God.” “God” is used in this sense as a class. But it is a class that contains only one element: God Himself. If the Muslim Allah is not identical with the Judeo-Christian God, then Allah is not even in the God class. It would then no more make sense to say “Allah is not the same God that we worship” than it would be to say “My custard is not the same planet as Earth.””
  6. Lastly, any errors in the Koran (especially comments against Christians) show that the Muslim understanding of God has falsities about God and how he acts, but it is still true that they believe in the one and only God, the Eternal Creator, just like us.
I am sure that in trying to summarize so many posts I may have left out some important details. If anyone want to reinforce an earlier point, add something new, or correct something I said, please do so.

Thanks for helping me grasp this topic.
 
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A.Pelliccio:
They pray to a pagan sun “god” . . . last time i checked thats not the Lord thats more like Apollo.
Actually, Allah was derived by Mohammed, he took him from one of the Arabic pagan moon gods that was commonly worshipped in his day.
 
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Pellman:
First one point of clarification. Contrasting “Allah” with “God” already begins from the assumption that the two are distinct and does so in a very faulty manner. Saying “Allah is not the same God” is like saying “Dios is not the same God” or “Gott is not the same God.” Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. Arabic Christians and Arabic Jews pray to Allah when they pray in the Arabic language. And they were doing so before Muhammed wrote down the Koran.

Logically, the object of Muslim devotion and that of Christians must be identical. Both worship the being who by definition is the only member of a single element class. That is why it makes grammatical–but not logical–sense to say “Allah is not the same God.” “God” is used in this sense as a class. But it is a class that contains only one element: God Himself. If the Muslim Allah is not identical with the Judeao-Christian God, then Allah is not even in the God class. It would then no more make sense to say “Allah is not the same God that we worship” than it would be to say “My custard is not the same planet as Earth.”

Muslims believe falsities about God, the one God, the only God there is. When they say Jesus is not the Son of God, they are wrong–precisely because they have made a false statement about God.

In another sense it has to be the same God. They believe the object of their worship to be the God who made Adam, who spoke to Abraham, who gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments, the God who made a virgin with child, the God who raised Jesus to Heaven and will send him back to earth on the Last Day as divine Judge. (Yes, Muslims believe that.) If you think that God is not the “same” as your God, then you have to believe these statements must mean a different Abraham, a different Adam, a different Jesus. But, no, Muslim says. He is referring to the same ones you are. Who are you to tell him that he does not mean what he says he means?
Wel, if you want to go the path of etymology, “Allah” is his name, not what he is. “Al-ilah” or “Ilah” means god in Arabic, not Allah.
 
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kjvail:
There is God and there are gods.One true, the others false. Just because someone calls something a god, doesn’t make it God.
Allah was a pagan moon god in Arabia long before he got elevated to being God.
Actually early suras in the Qua’ran refer to the name of God as Ar-Rahman.

prophetofdoom.net/quotes3.html#arrahman

Then it changes and becomes Allah, doesn’t sound like monotheism to me

prophetofdoom.net/quotes3.html#allah

Be aware that nothing in Islam was written down for about 300 years after Mohammad’s death. A far cry from the Gospels and letters we have written by witnesses to the events themselves.
Well, Catholics there from countries that speak Arabic / other languages that are rooted from Arabic or the like are stuffed then… I know for a fact that Indonesian Catholics certainly address God as “Allah” – in prayers or at Mass.
 
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Ken:
So why are Christians talking about more than one god? Is there a Christian god and a Muslim god?
(1) Because we need a ‘word’ to talk about the questions reqarding the object of worship when comparing religions (and in discussing polytheism).

(2) No. But we can’t ask the question without finding words to ask the question.
 
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