Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter St_Stephen
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think there is a Case III that fits better…

Case III would state that a group believes that John is the leader, while another group only believes John to be a spokesman for the leader and not a great one at that, that a later person, Yoko, is the last and greatest spokesperson for the leader…

I think this fits the Catholic/Muslim thing better. In that we Catholics know that Jesus is God, while Muslims say that Jesus was just a man and a prophet of God and that Mohammad is the last and greatest prophet of God.
 
40.png
justme:
I think there is a Case III that fits better…

Case III would state that a group believes that John is the leader, while another group only believes John to be a spokesman for the leader and not a great one at that, that a later person, Yoko, is the last and greatest spokesperson for the leader…

I think this fits the Catholic/Muslim thing better. In that we Catholics know that Jesus is God, while Muslims say that Jesus was just a man and a prophet of God and that Mohammad is the last and greatest prophet of God.
Click to expand...
Yes, I suppose there are people who are so lost to the truth as to believe that Yoko is the last and greatest spokesperson…! 😃

God bless,

Gryphon
 
40.png
theMutant:
In regard to the Muslims, the important point is to not go beyond what the Catechism actually says; which is what I’ve found most people do. The catechism lists three points where Muslims share faith with Catholics. The believe in only one God, the God of Abraham. So do we. They believe that God is merciful. So do we. They believe that God will judge us on the last day. So do we. The catechism says nothing beyond that. To say that we believe in the same God (the God of Abraham) does not mean that what we believe about that God is the same or equally true. The Catechism makes that clear in paragraph 844, i`In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them.

Among the other non-Christian religions, the Muslims have a closer bond than the rest because they are monotheistic (as opposed to polytheistic or pantheistic), the believe that they follow the God of Abraham (although their understanding on this point is flawed), and they believe that God is merciful and will judge us on the last day. We also believe this. Other than that, we do not believe the same things about God.

In conclusion, I think that it is justifiable to say that we do not believe in the same God. It is also justifiable to say that we do, but only in the sense that the Catechism does and not beyond that.
Click to expand...
Mutant,

I think you concede too much to the Islam haters here. How is it justifiable to say that we do not believe in the same God (the God of Abraham), as the Catechism explicitly says we do? That’s not to say we believe in all aspects identically, or that we share the same faith, or that we believe the same things about God. Here, you are correct. We don’t. But I see no grounds in the Catechism, read “broadly” or in part, that would justify saying that Catholics and Muslims “do not believe in the same God.” Sometimes, too much willingness to compromise, or to see partisans in a debate as “both right, both wrong” is an error. I think it is here, too.
 
It’s obvious that Muslims believe Christians made a big boo-boo from at least the time of Jesus onward. Are they straight with Judaism up to the time of Jesus?

Is the suicide terrorists’ battle cry “there is only one god, it is Allah” meant to fan the flames against those who believe in the Trinity?
 
mark a:
It’s obvious that Muslims believe Christians made a big boo-boo from at least the time of Jesus onward. Are they straight with Judaism up to the time of Jesus?

Is the suicide terrorists’ battle cry “there is only one god, it is Allah” meant to fan the flames against those who believe in the Trinity?
Click to expand...
The mistake here is to leap from a theological question (legitimate) about the chronological break of Islam from the Judeo-Christian traditions to contemporary terrorists.

It starts to dawn on me, slowly I admit, that so much of this recent posting of virulent anti-Islamic stuff is spurred on by the fear and intimidation of recent acts of terrorism. Yes, we are witnessing a rash of terrorism that cloaks itself in Islamic rhetoric. But to take these terrorists at face value, to equate their political rhetoric with Islam itself is unfair to Islam–and to the many, many holy people who practice this approach to God. What percentage of Moslems engage in suicidal terrorism or “beheadings”? What percentage of 19th century Christians invoked “God” in their wrath against native Americans and others? Should we judge Christianity by the obscene words uttered by such “Christians” that native Americans could be killed with (name removed by moderator)unity, since this was “God’s will”? Did that mean that the Christian God, and Christianity itself, was invested by their very nature in murder and mayhem? Certainly not.

I urge my fellow Catholics to listen, really listen, to the Holy Father on Islam. He, guided by the Holy Spirit, can help us avoid Satan’s seductions, which are not limited to the actions of fanatical Islamo-fascist terrorists, but often work, ironically, through the reactions of those who, filled with insecurity and anger, give in to hatred and potentially, to violence. Let us love all mankind, respect all who seek God, and only repudiate the actions of those who invoke hatred and violence against others. What good comes from smearing a religion that provides comfort and a holy life to so many? Are the anti-Islam voices here really saying that Islam has not made life better for many in the parts of the world where it is predominant? Surely we can concede that truth without having to say that Christianity might not enrich people’s lives even more. Anyway, that’s what I think.
 
mark a:
It’s obvious that Muslims believe Christians made a big boo-boo from at least the time of Jesus onward. Are they straight with Judaism up to the time of Jesus?

Is the suicide terrorists’ battle cry “there is only one god, it is Allah” meant to fan the flames against those who believe in the Trinity?
Click to expand...
In my copy of the Qu’ran (King Fahd version), the Jewish Old Testament stories and their Islamic counterparts differ. I’m not sure if they believe that the Old Testament has been preserved, or if it’s been corrupted. I suspect the latter though.
 
40.png
AnAtheist:
I guess the problem with Islam today is not, that Muslims do or do not worship the same god, or realise or realise that not respectively.
The real problem is, many Muslims are willing to kill and to die for their belief. That has many reasons, incl. economical ones. Islam today is at a stage where christianity was 400-900 years ago, it is aggressively expanding.
Islam IMHO is the biggest threat to individual freedom there is right now.
Click to expand...
Actually,* Islam* is back at the stage where it was 400-900 years ago. Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 7th century. For about 300 years, they allowed Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land to continue. In fact, the Mohammedans acknowledged the Frankish protectorate of the local Christians in the Holy Land. In AD 1009, the local caliph (of Fatimite persuasion) started killing the Christian pilgrims - a practice that caught on, and in fact the Turks started conquering formerly Christian nations, and forcibly converting them to Islam. In 1099, the Pope called for the first Crusade to re-take the Holy Land.

In the interest of historical accuracy, it is important to understand the Crusades as the response to Islamic persecution… not as an unprovoked attack upon the local populace - which at the time the Crusades began consisted of Christians as well as non-Christians.
 
on a side note, Allah means God. Nothing more. We worship Allah. Christians in the Mid-East refer to God as Allah. The Muslim conception of Allah may be flawed, but so is the Jewish. The term Allah is not false, our Western perception of it being strictly a Muslim term is. Allah is the Arabic translation of God, Islam doesn’t have a sole claim to its use.
 
Kevin,

Just so you know, Hagia Sophia is not a mosque, but a museum now. And the “Catholic” crussaders defiled Hagia Sophia far worse than the Muslims did during the sack of Constantinople. Just an FYI.

As for why the Vatican makes statements regarding Islam, you have to consider what is at stake. There are literally millions of Christians living in Muslim countries. Unlike the US, the Vatican has their fate to worry about. So, when it says Islam and Christianity come from the same traditions of the God of Abraham, you have to read between the lines.
 
40.png
squirt:
According to the CCC, the answer is Yes.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Muslims have a different understanding about the exact nature of God, but worship the same God as do Christians and Jews.
Click to expand...
It is Ironic though that paradise for a Muslim is more like a bordello. Their heavenly rewards are rewards of the flesh. It doesn’t seem like something God ever promised Jews or Christians.
 
40.png
Pellman:
If we compare the infinite God with something else infinite like the decimal expansion of pi, then the Christian value might look something like

3.14159265358979323846

and Muslim 3.1434583
Click to expand...
or possibly 666.
 
Some of these arguments are funny and others are just ridiculous. Is it the same God? Yes and no. On one hand it is the same because of comprable dogma…one creator, paradise after life, and even holy vengence if you profess any belief in the old testament. And at the same time they are different because of the taint of man. Pride inflicts personal connotations to God, such as the frequent use of the word “he” by male dominated societies. This denotes a sexual orientaion to a one of a kind, and therefore asexual being. Just as catholics would like to believe God has revealed “his” true nature to them, his choosen people, muslims and jews also believe that they and only they are the lambs of god. This causes other cultural influences to become intergrated into the mythos. The words and opinions of God were not written down in some cases for hundreds of years, and in that time many factors of the stories could have changed. Not to mention peoples tendancy to hear what they want to hear when it comes to religious matters. A perfect example is this discussion, in the new testament we all hear the part about worshiping no other God, (therefore the muslims are “wrong”), but the themes of love thy neighbor and the good sumeritan are muted. Religion shouldn’t seperate you from anyone, it should bring you together…to use it as an excuse to hate someone is contemptable at best. Is everyone so certain of their righteousness?
 
40.png
Wormwood:
Some of these arguments are funny and others are just ridiculous. Is it the same God? Yes and no.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think the only way we will know for sure the answer of this question will be on judgement day. But since you brought up the subject of Jesus in Islam, I’ll share a few points: of course Muslims beleive Jesus was a prophet of God. They acknowledge He performed miracles and will judge the living and dead on the last day. And the Qur’an consistently calls Jesus the Messiah. But they still refer to Mohammed as the greatest of all prophets. Why? Because the whole Jesus-as-prophet thing was merely a concession to the Arab Christians Mohammed was trying to encorporate into the fold.

Further to this, although the Qur’an clearly tells Muslims to defer to Christians on the subject of the gospels, the never do… They like to grab a few quotes which to them justify their positions on Islam. But they reject the rest of the message outright, specifically about forgiving your enemies, loving your neighbour, the eucharist etc as Christian innovation.
 
40.png
Salvo:
Kevin,

Just so you know, Hagia Sophia is not a mosque, but a museum now. And the “Catholic” crussaders defiled Hagia Sophia far worse than the Muslims did during the sack of Constantinople. Just an FYI.

As for why the Vatican makes statements regarding Islam, you have to consider what is at stake. There are literally millions of Christians living in Muslim countries. Unlike the US, the Vatican has their fate to worry about. So, when it says Islam and Christianity come from the same traditions of the God of Abraham, you have to read between the lines.
Click to expand...
What does it say between the lines? Should the Vatican statement be considered a lie designed to safeguard Christians in Muslim lands?
 
40.png
Ken:
What does it say between the lines? Should the Vatican statement be considered a lie designed to safeguard Christians in Muslim lands?
Click to expand...
Not a lie. A ubiquitous commonality which aside from making Muslims “warm and fuzzy” also hopefully gets them thinking and remembering that they come from a mutual tradition. And yes, the design is to safeguard Christians in Muslim lands. You really have no idea of how bad it is for them in some cases. I suggest you read Amnesty International’s yearly report. You can find it online at ai.org Read about Pakistan, Bengladesh, Sudan etc. Not easy reading, but it may just give you a bit of insight on the tight-rope act the church has had to carry-out on this subject.
 
40.png
Salvo:
Not a lie. A ubiquitous commonality which aside from making Muslims “warm and fuzzy” also hopefully gets them thinking and remembering that they come from a mutual tradition. And yes, the design is to safeguard Christians in Muslim lands. You really have no idea of how bad it is for them in some cases. I suggest you read Amnesty International’s yearly report. You can find it online at ai.org Read about Pakistan, Bengladesh, Sudan etc. Not easy reading, but it may just give you a bit of insight on the tight-rope act the church has had to carry-out on this subject.
Click to expand...
If it is not a lie, is it truth?
 
I think we worship the same God. We just have different views on what he commands.
 
Salvo, not only did I NOT bring up Jesus in Islam, but the word “Jesus” never even appeared in my post. You are practicing hearing what you want to hear. I guess it is most fitting that you responded, since you are exactly the kind of self righteous eurocentric person I was refering to. Not only do you defend not loving your neighbor, you actuall condemn someone else for not doing it…"
They like to grab a few quotes which to them justify their positions on Islam. But they reject the rest of the message outright, specifically about forgiving your enemies, loving your neighbour, the eucharist etc as Christian innovation.
Click to expand...
I can see why you are so self righteous, you have really mastered the message of Jesus. Love thy neighbor…unless he differs from you in any culturally signifigant way. Why wait for judgement day, you are passing judgement right now. If you keep using your religion as a means of seperation, you might not find judgement day to be as cheery as you think.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top