Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?

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Leaders in Rome sit in comfort and declare Islam and Christianity to be morally equivalent. Here is an interview with a Bishop that lives with the results of the doctrines of Lucifer every day

213.92.16.98/ESW_articolo/0,2393,42160,00.html

Perhaps when the Mohammadians turn St. Peter’s into a mosque, as they did Solomon’s temple and St. Sophia’s, the Vatican, wherever it is moved to, will re-evaluate their position.
 
I guess the problem with Islam today is not, that Muslims do or do not worship the same god, or realise or realise that not respectively.
The real problem is, many Muslims are willing to kill and to die for their belief. That has many reasons, incl. economical ones. Islam today is at a stage where christianity was 400-900 years ago, it is aggressively expanding.
Islam IMHO is the biggest threat to individual freedom there is right now.
 
Christians and Muslims both worship the only God there is. Each has a different description of him.

I highly doubt that the Christian description of God is complete. There is an infinity of things the Christians don’t know about God. Their ignorance is infinite, their knowledge puny.

Same with the Muslims. Their knowledge is puny, and their ignorance infinite.

So we have two groups, each standing on their puny knowledge casting stones at the other.

This is silly.
 
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Ken:
Christians and Muslims both worship the only God there is. Each has a different description of him.

I highly doubt that the Christian description of God is complete. There is an infinity of things the Christians don’t know about God. Their ignorance is infinite, their knowledge puny.

Same with the Muslims. Their knowledge is puny, and their ignorance infinite.

So we have two groups, each standing on their puny knowledge casting stones at the other.

This is silly.
That finite knowledge of infinite God is puny is not self evident. If there is any knowledge, at all, then ignorance is not infinite. Infinite means without limit and ignorance is limited by the fact that knowledge is not ignorance. In addition, to measure anything finite against the infinite Godhead is to reduce it to insignificance. But that does not seem to be God’s way. He measures the significance of His creation by love and truth, not against himself. “For God so loved the world…” Our knowledge of God is finite, granted. The reality of God is infinite, granted. But our knowledge is greater that absolute ignorance. And that is something, indeed. Add to that that our knowledge of God is obtained mostly through His self-revelation and it must be said that to call our knowledge puny verges on the blasphemous.

The second issue is not whether Christianity or Islam teaches any truth but whether either teaches error. You cannot take it as axiomatic that truth is relative or that objective truth cannot be known because we, quite simply, declare these ideas to be false. Axioms stand on their own as self-evident. We hold it as objectively revealed truth that God is Triune and that the Divine Second Person truly became man, suffered, died, and rose from the dead. Muslims do not believe that. We believe that they are really truly and objectively wrong. On the other hand, we believe that the Catholic Church has not and cannot teach error on matters of faith.

If you disagree, so be it. But don’t try to bamboozle us with your modernist epistemology.

Justin
 
It isn’t that there are ‘a few errors’ in Islamic dogma or that a ‘rag-tag band’ of people have misinterpted it. It is the dogma itself that is corrupt.

Have you even read the tract on this very site called “Endless Jihad”?
Muslim apologists also rushed forward to assure the public that Islam was a peaceful religion. They disingenuously declared that the word Islam means “peace.” And they tried to portray the terrorists as a fringe group outside the mainstream of Islam.
These were lies.
The usual meaning of Islam in Arabic is not “peace” but “submission.” And if the terrorists were so far outside the mainstream, why did Muslims all over the world burst into joyful, spontaneous celebrations when the hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? Why are Islamic governments afraid to show “too much” public support for the war against terrorism? Further, why are all the governments that covertly support terrorism centered in the Muslim world?
The truth is that Islam is not a religion of peace. This is not to say that every Muslim is violent at heart. Many are not. Muslims have the same aspirations for living peaceful lives that people have the world over. But they also have the same potential for violence as others, and Islam as a religion and an ideology seeks to exploit that potential.
Though there are millions of Muslims who want peaceful relations with the West, millions who aspire to live in free societies like America, there nevertheless remains a deep and powerful strain of violence within Islam, and it is important that Americans understand it.
Christianity, by contrast, is a universal religion, meant for all peoples in all countries. It has much greater breadth, and much lower intrinsic potential for violence. Its founder—Christ—was a martyr, who refused to fight to save his life. Though the New Testament acknowledges that the Old Testament revelation is from God, it does not contain new commands to use violence, as Christianity was not to be allied from its birth to a state in the way Judaism was.
The fact that in Christianity church and state are distinct means that as a religion Christianity has less potential for violence since it is not called upon to use force in the way a state is. This, coupled with Jesus’ own example and his “love thy enemy” teachings (e.g., Matt. 5:44), gives Christianity less innate potential for violence.
In contrast, Islam’s founder was a warlord who rose from nowhere and who by his death was the undisputed master of Arabia Peninsula. The holy book he produced is filled with commands to use violence in the service of its religion and nation. This potential for violence is similar to that possessed by Judaism except it is immensely augmented by the fact that Islam views itself, like Christianity, as a universal religion meant for all peoples in all countries. It also makes no distinction between church and state and is thus a political as well as religious ideology.
As a result, Islam has been willing to employ violence on a massive scale, as illustrated by the first century of its existence, when the Islamic Empire exploded outward and conquered much of the known world.
The attitude of Islam toward using violence against non-Muslims is clear. Regarding pagans, the Quran says, “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful” (Surah 9:5). This amounts to giving pagans a convert-or-die choice.
Regarding violence against Jews and Christians, the Quran says, “Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the last day, who do not forbid what God and his messenger have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued” (Surah 9:29). In other words, violence is to be used against Jews and Christians unless they are willing to pay a special tax and live in subjection to Muslims as second-class citizens. For them the choice is convert, die, or live in subjection.
 
The Quran also has stern words for Muslims who would be slow and reluctant to attack unbelievers: “Believers, why is it that when you are told: ‘March in the cause of God,’ you linger slothfully in the land? Are you content with this life in preference to the life to come? . . . If you do not go to war, he [God] will punish you sternly, and will replace you by other men” (Surah 9:38-39).

And, of course, there is the promise of reward in the afterlife for waging jihad in this one: “Believers! Shall I point out to you a profitable course that will save you from a woeful scourge? Have faith in God and his messenger, and fight for God’s cause with your wealth and with your persons. . . . He will forgive you your sins and admit you to gardens watered by running streams; he will lodge you in pleasant mansions in the gardens of Eden. This is the supreme triumph” (Surah 61:10-12).

Because of very poor instruction in History, people often compare the expansion of Christianity with the expansion of Islam. There is no valid comparision, the Apostles did not sack cities, displace whole groups of people or murder those that would not accept Jesus. Not only did the followers of Mohammad do these things, they were ordered to do so by Mohammad himself. Can anyone here imagine Jesus Christ saying “One third of all the booty you gain should be given to Me?” Or can you imagine Jesus Christ sharing his bed with a 6 year old child? The very thought is repulsive and heretical but in Islam is a fact.

I think we want to convince ourselves that there are just a few nuts that have perverted the teachings of Mohammad, in fact I’ve heard everyone from the President to Gene Simmons say that very thing, sadly it’s not true. The terrorists are following the doctrines of Mohammad and Allah, the so-called “moderates” are not. In Christianity, those that have justified violence and hate such as the Klu Klux Klan and others are heretics. In Islam, the those that argue against the violence and hate are the heretics.
There are, indeed, many Muslims who desire peace, but, their views often do not count for much in Muslim society. Author Serge Trifkovic notes: “Some critics may object that this account of Islam in the modern world does not pay much attention to Islamic moderation, to the everyday wish of everyday Muslims for a quiet life. This is not because such moderates are rare, but because they are rarely important. Religions, like political ideologies, are pushed along by money, power, and tiny vocal minorities. Within Islam, the money and the power are all pushing the wrong way. So are the most active minorities. The urgent need is to recognize this. Our problem is not prejudice about Islam, but folly in the face of its violence and cruelty. And in any case, the willingness of moderates to be what are objectively bad Muslims, because they reject key teachings of historical Islam, may be laudable in human terms but does nothing to modify Islam as a doctrine.”
(emphasis mine)
 
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UnworthySoul:
Wel, if you want to go the path of etymology, “Allah” is his name, not what he is. “Al-ilah” or “Ilah” means god in Arabic, not Allah.
Is it not true that Arabic Christians pray to Allah? Is it not true that Allah is the word for God in the Arabic Bible?
 
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Pellman:
Is it not true that Arabic Christians pray to Allah? Is it not true that Allah is the word for God in the Arabic Bible?
And in Maronite rite Catholic liturgies …
 
NO NO NO NO

I studied Islam. Muslims follow Allah, the MOON God. It is NOT our God. They also follow Mohommad, the son of satan, who was married to a child, age 6. He was a killer and a terrorist.
St Stephen:
I was wondering if the Catholic Church considers that Muslims follow the same God as we do. I understand that they do not believe in the Trinity (and are thus non-Christians), but neither do the Jews and the Church does have a special relationship with them. I know that different religions have various amounts of truth in them and by that token Islam is more like Christianity than Buddhism. I was also wondering if a Muslim would agree or disagree that he worships the same God. I’m not an expert on this so I was hoping someone could help me out.

Thanks!
 
Allah = Moon God
Bunk!

Muhammed may have pulled the Koran out of his own head instead of Gabriel’s but he explicitly drew on Jewish and Christian teaching to do so. If Allah is a pagan moon god and Allah made Adam and sent the Flood and called Abraham and chose Mary to be the virgin Mother of Jesus as the Koran says that he did, then are you saying that a pagan moon god did all these things?

The Muslim conception of God may be wrong in many ways, but it is just that: a conception of God. The Christian conception of God differs from that of the Muslims, yes, perhaps greatly. But both cases are just ideas. Do not confuse your limited and finite idea of God with the real, infinite, living God. The Muslim concept may miss the mark but we know what they are aiming at since they have explicitly told us so: the God of Abraham.

If we compare the infinite God with something else infinite like the decimal expansion of pi, then the Christian value might look something like

3.14159265358979323846

and Muslim 3.1434583

The Christian one may be correct in every single digit, that is, in every single statement that it makes about God. The Muslim may be correct in a few digits (God is one, eternal, creator of universe) and wrong in other. But both are in fact approximations of the truth. And both are missing an INFINITE number of digits! Both the Christian conception and the Muslim conception of God are approximations. Of course one is closer and more correct than the other.
 
Pellman,

You have a point. But, they pray to a God who turned heaven into a sex palace and promoted terrorist.

Allah…the name comes from Moon God. It is not our same God. Mohommad had some help writing the Koran from a demon.
 
Allah = Moon God
Bunk!
Every archaelogist that has studied it has come to the same conclusion. Allah was one of many pagan gods worshipped in Mecca, in fact Mohammad family was involved in the idol worshipping business and some have speculated that in greed lies the origins of Islam
While Arabs were principally pagan, thus polytheistic, there was no religious prejudice or persecution in the land, and monotheism was spreading rapidly. A large concentration of Jews, a remnant of the Babylonian captivity twelve centuries prior, lived unmolested in a town they had helped build, the thriving agricultural community of Yathrib, today’s Medina. Their number was thought to be around thirty thousand—a tremendous concentration of people considering the nature of the land they occupied.
Two hundred miles south of Yathrib lay Mecca. It was nestled in a narrow, dry, and stony valley a quarter of a mile wide and a mile and a half long. The mountains on either side were rugged and devoid of vegetation, naked. Unlike Yathrib, Mecca was sterile. There was too little water for agriculture. There were no trees and far too little grass for productive grazing. The village was comprised of mud huts. Neither hewn stones nor bricks, even hand-formed and sun-dried, were to be found anywhere. In this regard, Mecca lagged behind the developed world by three millennia.
There were no roofs in Mecca, as there was no timber. With no timber, there were no carpenters. Blistering winds and encroaching sands were the lot of rich and poor. No one escaped the elements. Every hut was open to the scorching heat of the day and chill of the desert night. And exposure was not without pain. There are few places as unappealing. If Jerusalem and Israel are the world’s heart and aorta, Mecca and Arabia are the dust between her toes. I do not say this to be disparaging, but to provide a point of reference, a necessary contrast, between the places and the claims made about them.
The stateliest “structure” in Mecca was the Ka’aba, a shrine of sorts that Allah, the moon god, shared with idols like Hubal. Their “House” consisted of four walls. It was an open, crude, and roofless cube in the sixth century, having nearly succumbed to gravity and flash floods. Constructed of local rock, totally un-hewn and un-mortared, it was as ignoble as the idols it housed—mostly stones. Hubal was the only graven image. Lord only knows how they distinguished between the gods and the “building.”
Glubb tells us, “It is interesting that most Arabian idols do not seem to have been modeled after human beings, as were those of Greece and Rome… Idolaters in all ages have denied that they worshipped an image made by hands, but have claimed that they prayed to the spirit which dwelt in it. The Arabic language has a word for a stone believed to be the abode of a deity. Many Arabs believed that a blessing could be obtained by kissing or rubbing such a stone.” As we shall discover, kissing and fondling Allah’s Black Stone was something Muhammad did with reverence and regularity.
Apart from the Ka’aba, Mecca was nothing. Isolated, the little burg of perhaps five thousand inhabitants made nothing, grew nothing. It was a long, hard ride to the civilizations of the Mediterranean. Ships passed to the west, caravans to the east. Mecca was controlled by a conniving lot, a tribe called the Quraysh, the clan of Muhammad. What we know about them is derived exclusively from Islamic Traditions, Muslim oral reports.
The Quraysh history, as best we can piece it together from the Islamic scripture, goes something like this: The Khuza’a tribe from the south ousted the Jurhum clan from a tent encampment called Mecca around 400 A.D. Tabari explains:** “The Jurhum acted badly, stealing sacrifices that had been presented to the Ka’aba.”** They were “oppressive.” Ishaq agrees: “The Jurhum were heavy-handed, guilty of taboos, and treated the Ka’aba gifts as their own. A battle ensued and the Khuza’a expelled the Jurhum from Mecca.” The Jurhum’s legacy was: “the two gazelles of the Ka’aba and the cornerstone which they buried in the well of Zamzam. They retreated to Yemen bitterly grieved at losing control of the Ka’aba.”
Why would losing control of a dilapidated rock shrine dedicated to rock gods grieve the dearly departed? The answer has far-reaching implications, implications that would ultimately topple a pair of towers on the other side of the world. The plot, as they say, is about to thicken.
 
The rest of the history of paganism and it’s connection to Mohammad and Islam you can read here:
prophetofdoom.net/chapter5.html
Muhammed may have pulled the Koran out of his own head instead of Gabriel’s but he explicitly drew on Jewish and Christian teaching to do so. If Allah is a pagan moon god and Allah made Adam and sent the Flood and called Abraham and chose Mary to be the virgin Mother of Jesus as the Koran says that he did, then are you saying that a pagan moon god did all these things?
I encourage you to *read * the stories Mohammad plagarized from the Hebrew bible, they are distorted and self-serving at best.

You can browse this chapter if you don’t have the time to pick up a Quan’ran and read it yourself.

prophetofdoom.net/chapter3.html

We need to stop fooling ourselves - Islam has nothing to do with Christianity except it was inspired by the eternal foe of God. It is not a different face of God, it is a mirror image of Him.
 
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1962Missal:
That finite knowledge of infinite God is puny is not self evident. If there is any knowledge, at all, then ignorance is not infinite. Infinite means without limit and ignorance is limited by the fact that knowledge is not ignorance. In addition, to measure anything finite against the infinite Godhead is to reduce it to insignificance. But that does not seem to be God’s way. He measures the significance of His creation by love and truth, not against himself. “For God so loved the world…” Our knowledge of God is finite, granted. The reality of God is infinite, granted. But our knowledge is greater that absolute ignorance. And that is something, indeed. Add to that that our knowledge of God is obtained mostly through His self-revelation and it must be said that to call our knowledge puny verges on the blasphemous.

The second issue is not whether Christianity or Islam teaches any truth but whether either teaches error. You cannot take it as axiomatic that truth is relative or that objective truth cannot be known because we, quite simply, declare these ideas to be false. Axioms stand on their own as self-evident. We hold it as objectively revealed truth that God is Triune and that the Divine Second Person truly became man, suffered, died, and rose from the dead. Muslims do not believe that. We believe that they are really truly and objectively wrong. On the other hand, we believe that the Catholic Church has not and cannot teach error on matters of faith.

If you disagree, so be it. But don’t try to bamboozle us with your modernist epistemology.

Justin
If God exists, and God is infinite, then knowledge is infinite. Man’s knowledge is finite.

Infinite - finite = infinite.

Man’s knowledge is finite. Man’s ignorance is infinite regardless of how much it grows. Therefore man’s knowledge is puny.
 
As you enter the Al-Aksa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem, the Muslims hand you a brochure that states – “This was never King Solomon’s Temple. The Jews lied. It has always been a Muslim site.” Archaeology be hanged… I agree – it is a pagan, made-up religion, with parts taken from Judaism and Christianity. And they call Christianity ‘polytheistic’ because of the Trinity. And cut off heads for their ‘god.’
 
I realize that I’m jumping in kind of late here but here goes…

Paragraphs 839-845 of the Catechism explains the relationship between the Church (the People of God) and non-Christian religions. One principle that must be remembered when reading the Catechism is that none of the paragraphs can be considered in total isolation of the others. The Catechism is a progressive explanation of the Faith and any part must be taken in the context of the whole. It is a failure to realize and do this that leads many into error when trying to interpret its teachings.

In terms of the relationship between Catholicism and Judaism, the relationship is strong because Judaism is the birthplace of Catholicism. Christ did not abolish the covenant with the Jews, He fulfilled it, re-established it, and expanded it to include the Gentiles. I highly recommend the book, “Salvation is from the Jews” which goes into this topic at great length. In every comment I have heard or read by converts to Judaism, they do not consider themselves to have converted “from Judaism” but rather to have discovered the fulfillment of Judaism. One said that the most Jewish thing that she ever did was to become Catholic.

In regard to the Muslims, the important point is to not go beyond what the Catechism actually says; which is what I’ve found most people do. The catechism lists three points where Muslims share faith with Catholics. The believe in only one God, the God of Abraham. So do we. They believe that God is merciful. So do we. They believe that God will judge us on the last day. So do we. The catechism says nothing beyond that. To say that we believe in the same God (the God of Abraham) does not mean that what we believe about that God is the same or equally true. The Catechism makes that clear in paragraph 844, “In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them.”

Paragraph 843 teaches that God allows non-Christian religions as “a preparation for the Gospel” and that all truth in these religions is “given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” Because all that is good and true in non-Christian religions has God as its source, the Church does not reject the good and true aspects of these religions. This is not the same as saying that everything in these religions is good and true or that they are in any way equal to the Church Christ established for our salvation.

This is made perfectly clear in paragraph 845. “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. …she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.” From this we can see that the Catechism does not teach any kind of heterodoxy that states that all religions are equal or that they are all paths to salvation. The purpose of the truths held by these religions is to lead them to Christ and His Church; the one and only Catholic Church. Once again, we see here the principle that the unity of the Church and humanity subsists (has its existence) in the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church.

In what way does this constitute heresy? We have a teaching that Christ established one Church for our salvation and that all of humanity is called by God to this Church. All that is true and Good in those religions comes from God for the purpose of leading them to salvation in the Catholic Church. Their religions are not capable of providing salvation except to the extend that they lead to the one and only Catholic Church. Among the non-Christian religions the Church has the closest bond with the Jews because Judaism is the source of the covenant. Its religious history is our own. Among the other non-Christian religions, the Muslims have a closer bond than the rest because they are monotheistic (as opposed to polytheistic or pantheistic), the believe that they follow the God of Abraham (although their understanding on this point is flawed), and they believe that God is merciful and will judge us on the last day. We also believe this. Other than that, we do not believe the same things about God.

In conclusion, I think that it is justifiable to say that we do not believe in the same God. It is also justifiable to say that we do, but only in the sense that the Catechism does and not beyond that.
 
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Ken:
If God exists, and God is infinite, then knowledge is infinite. Man’s knowledge is finite.

Infinite - finite = infinite.

Man’s knowledge is finite. Man’s ignorance is infinite regardless of how much it grows. Therefore man’s knowledge is puny.
Let’s look at the word infinite. It is from the Latin, “finis”, meaning limit or boundary. The preposition, “in”, is a negative. When we combine the two, we can see that infinite means without limit or boundary. Now, for something to be infinite cannot only mean that it goes on without end. It must mean that it has no limitations, whatsoever, either external or internal.

Let us apply this to ignorance. If something is known, it cannot be simultaneously not known. We do possess knowledge, therefore there are things that are not not known. Within ignorance, then, is a limit caused by knowledge. Therefore, ignorance cannot properly be described as infinite.

Justin
 
Mutant,

Actually beyond the statement of “allah the merciful, the wise, the just” the unholy texts of Islam say nothing about mercy. Not once is one commanded to love allah, only to fear him. This is a fundamental difference - Christianity is based on love - Islam on fear. I few posts ago I proved, using the words of the Koran, that in Islam 999 out of 1000 people are dammed to hell. They are damned while still in the womb, there is no free will in Islam - faith, works are all irrelevant. The only work that gets you a free pass to the brothel that passes for Islamic paradise is to kill for allah.

To add insult to injury, consider the nature of hell. It’s the favority topic of the Koran - sura after sura of vivid descriptions.
In Christianity hell is eternal banishment from the presence of God.
In Islam, allah himself delivers the punishments of hell personally and takes great pleasure in doing so - or so it says in several suras. Does this sound like a ‘merciful’ god?
Our Church may believe that other religions want to prepare people for the truth of the Gospel but the Mohammadians would like to wipe out the Gospel and anyone that speaks it. The Church used to know this - this is why there were Crusades…

BBopp,

To add to your point consider that one of the most sacred shrines in all Christedom is now a mosque and has been for 600 years.

http://p.vtourist.com/532407.jpg
 
Now imagine what the Mohammadians would do to this given the chance:


St. Peter’s
 
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