Do Catholics and Protestants believe in the same Gospel?

[tabcom]

Hi,
Catholic and Protestants read the same scripture. Protestants protest against it. That is why they are called protest-ants.

** Protestans are protesting scripture?

In a broader sense of the word, Protestant came to be used as the collective name for those individuals and churches who advocated a formal separation from the Roman Catholic Church.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestants
**

 

[petra]

Santos, thank you very much for sharing your story! It is very touching!

Merry Christmas to you all!

petra

 

[Santos]

**It is interesting that you included this statement with your citation of John 6:55. Let me explain by defining some words; flesh, food, and true.

Let’s take a look at the food that Jesus offers.

Joh 4:32
But (Jesus) said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about .”

Food = Will of God**

Joh 4:34
Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.

Joh 6:27
“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Flesh = Will of God = Truth

John 6:55
"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

John goes on to define what truth is.

Joh 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Truth =Flesh = Jesus = Word =Full of Grace=Holy Spirit.

Holy Spirit only comes through Jesus

14:6
Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you.

The algebraic equation of John 6:55 is:

Truth =Flesh = Jesus = Word =Full of Grace=Holy Spirit.

tabcom, I agree! This is the one thread that we can both agree to disagree! Just like your fellow protestant christians, Joseph Smith and Linkowski, I too agree that Catholics and Protestants believe in a different Gospel. Don’t jump off the topic, if you agree that we believe in the same Gospel, then post your view, and why you beleive that we beleive in the same Gospel. Don’t say we believe in the same Gospel, and then start a Scripture battle in why the catholics are so wrong

Let me give you a perfect example, Joseph Smith (protestant) believes that we “do not” believe in the same Gospel and he gives a perfect explanation why he believe’s that. If you haven’t read it, you should. :clapping:

Now Zooey who is Methodist believes that we “do” believe in the same Gospel and she gives a perfect explanation why she believe’s that. If you haven’t read it, you should. :clapping:

Do you see a patern starting here? Maybe that’s because they’re sticking to the topic. Furthermore, If you “disagree” that Catholics and Protestants believe in the same Gospel, and you wish to further your argument, then feel free to address any of those who in fact “agree” that your Gospel is indeed the same as theirs.

Now I “agree” with you, that the understanding of your Gospel and mine are different. If the Gospel = “Jesus Christ”. Then right off the bat, my Jesus is Truly Present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist… and I can not seperate the two (Jesus - Eucharist). Your “Jesus Christ” is not Truly Present in the Eucharist. Now if the Gospel for you is the message of Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Then that message of Salvation is different for you and I as it is for many christians, “not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit” (Mt 7:21).

Okay, now off the topic just this once: I loved your scripture passages, disputing Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, I was going to write them down untill I remembered that “I too! Have a Bible!” and I know it well.

Your scripture passages are all very true, I do not deny that. What i do deny is the manner in which you chose to use them. None of those passages were directly used by the writer in reference to the “Eucharist” discourse of John 6.
You are picking and choosing verses to defend your understanding :tsktsk:

If those bible passages were not used by the writer in direct reference to the “Eucharist” discourse of John 6, then do not use them.

Let me give you some bible passages that “are” used by the writer in direct reference to the “Eucharist” discourse of John 6:

“whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily sins against the body and blood of the Lord.” (1 Cor 11:27)

**Wow! **St. Paul surely didn’t see the “bread” and “cup” of the Lord as symbolic, St. Paul charges us with sin against the actual “body” and “blood” of the Lord if we partake unworthily!

How can we be charged with sin against the actual “body” and “blood” of Christ, if the “bread” and “cup” were merely symbolic?

It’s like me hitting the statue of a man, and then being charged with assault against the man to which that statue symbolized.

It doesn’t make sense to be charged with sin against the “body” and “blood” of the Lord, if the Eucharist is merely symbolic.

(continued…)

 

[Santos]

Second of all: Here’s a little History lesson for you. This is what i like to call “Historical Fact’s” you should try using it, it really builds foundation for “Truth”.

Maybe you should write this down, “It’s not in your bible”. But you’ll find it in a liabrary, or “History Book’s” that you can order on the web.

Jesus Christ founded His Church (33 AD) upon Peter (Mat 16:13-19). Persecution and Martyrdom of the Christian faith began with Christ, on the Cross of Calvery and ended with Constantine who defeated the pagan general Maxentius (312 AD), and officially ended the Roman persecution of Christianity.

Not only is there a “blood” trail leading back from 312 AD to the Cross of Calvery, but there is also a paper trail of Christian writings called (epistles), which witness to the faith that all these martyr’s were taught! The NT Bible was not how these martyr’s got their teachings, the NT Bible did not come about till 405 AD. These martyr’s got their teaching by word of mouth and epistle! as commanded by St. Paul:

2 Thess 2:15 - “hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter”, and remember Jn 21:25 - “not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture.”

So before we were able to confuse Christ’s true teachings with self-interpretations of scripture, we had Christ’s teachings preserved through oral and written letter of the early Churh. Now between 33 AD and 405 AD when there wasn’t a bible, I can produce at least “100” passages of supporting epistle from the early Church that shows, that these Christians all believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I do not accept any interpretation of scripture that goes against all that those Christians died for, 300 yrs of martyrdom blood shed and torture, some proclaiming this very truth from their own crosses. Yet we can sit here and say that we know better of what Jesus taught, more then them.

If we deny what they were taught, then their blood was shed in vein for us to have the Gospel today, as it was taught to them from the Apostles.

Forgive me for saying I do not believe that your scripture verses hold any weight to support your “interpretation” of John 6. Not when there’s 300 yrs (33 AD - 312 AD) of Christian blood testifying to the Truth of Christ’s Real Presence in The Holy Eucharist.

You’ve already laid out your objection, I firmly “disagree”, now I have laid out mine. Now all that’s left is for you to “agree” to “disagree”. that’s how this thread work’s.

I hope you had a Merry Christmas. I need to get back to mine (Christmas) and my family, God Bless.

Santos

john654 Thanks for your post, you’ve given your view on why you believe as you do. Good sticking with the topic, now if we can get others to only do the same.

 

[Cam-masta]

Catholics upset me when they’re too embarassed to say Jesus Christ is Truely present in the Eucharist, The Heart of the Church. Our seperated brothers and sisters Love our Lord so very much, that is why we should be anxious to share this mystery of Love with them. Even if they reject it!

Santos, it is true, that our seperated brethren in Christ should at least objectively look at Catholic teaching, instead of being instructed by an anti-Catholic media and those who think they understand our Faith, but really know nothing at all. I appreciate your zeal, as it is needed. Here’s the thing: if they choose to reject it, that’s their choice. We shouldn’t impose our beliefs on them, if they do not desire to discuss the issues, but rather, display to them the effects of our Eucharistic Faith in charity. That means making the Word become flesh, so to speak, by displaying an unconditional love to them regardless of their rejection of Catholic truth. Surely, this is the real challenge. I share this with you brother Santos, because as a new Catholic I have made many mistakes in this regard, pushing the issues on others when they didn’t want to discuss them. God Bless bro and Merry Christmas!

 

[Santos]

Here’s the thing: if they choose to reject it, that’s their choice.

I agree 100%

That means making the Word become flesh, so to speak, by displaying an unconditional love to them regardless of their rejection of Catholic truth. Surely, this is the real challenge.

I agree 100% again!

This “is” my unconditional love, I’m sorry if you can’t see it… but don’t base my “presentation” of faith as a lack of unconditional love…

My brother thinks he’s Robin Hood. He steals from the rich and gives to the poor. Well not exactly… He steals food from grocery stores to feed his own family. Now I give to him the same “presentation” of faith, and yet he never listens.

Never-the-Less in both situations, I most definately have unconditional love.

I do not know about you, but I’m a father of 4, and there is none in the world whom I have more unconditional love for then my own children. In life lesson’s and correcting error, my “presentation” of faith is much, much, much, more stern, and yet they’re my heart and soul.

My “presentation” of faith is no different now, then when it was, when I was leading many christians out of the Catholic Church.

I am backed-up with work and I will barely find any time for myself this week, I invite you Cam-masta to present the faith in Charity and Love. I look forward to learning something from you. God Bless and Merry Christmas, May the Peace of our Lord be with you and your family.

 

[tabcom]

. . if you agree that we believe in the same Gospel, then post your view,

**Your original topic needs defining.

How many Gospels are there in the Bible?
Answer: 2

II Cor 11:3,4,13-15 But I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled (exapatao - seduce wholly) Eve through his subtility (panourgia - shrewd, clever, cunning), so your minds should be corrupted (phtheiro - deprave, ruin, defile) from the simplicity (haplos-singleness, implies pure or holy) that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth “another Jesus”-- (this is not the Jesus of the Bible that says we must take up our cross daily, deny (aparneomai - utterly contradict) ourselves, forsake all that we have or we cannot be his disciple - Luke 9:23;14:27,33) --whom we have not preached, or if ye receive “another spirit”, (small s–the Holy Spirit is Truth - John 14:17, 15:26, & 16:13, 1 John 5:6–They will preach another truth, which is not the truth at all, but a lie disguised as the truth) – which ye have not received, or “another gospel”,–the true gospel is death to the flesh/self and the resurrection daily in our mortal bodies - 1 Cor 15:1-4, 2 Cor 4:10-12,16,17 -

The “other Jesus” requires no death to self, no daily cross, no self denial, but rather, this Jesus does not resurrect in us daily – instead he says to us that we can “distribute fortunes” (daemon) to ourselves thus ruling our own flesh, setting our own rules and overthrowing (diabolos) the law of God in our lives – this gospel is no gospel, that fulfills the flesh.) It is the devil’s counterfeit gospel.-which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For such are false apostles deceitful (dolios- to live by trickery, decoy, guile) workers, transforming (metaschematizo - disguise or change) themselves into the apostles of Christ (It is the devil disguised as Jesus)–but it is another Jesus. And no marvel - for Satan himself is transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) into an angel of light… Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall be according to their works. (They will pass themselves off as truth-sayers when they are soothsayers.)**

 

[Tonks40]

**Your original topic needs defining.

How many Gospels are there in the Bible?
Answer: 2

II Cor 11:3,4,13-15 But I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled (exapatao - seduce wholly) Eve through his subtility (panourgia - shrewd, clever, cunning), so your minds should be corrupted (phtheiro - deprave, ruin, defile) from the simplicity (haplos-singleness, implies pure or holy) that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth “another Jesus”-- (this is not the Jesus of the Bible that says we must take up our cross daily, deny (aparneomai - utterly contradict) ourselves, forsake all that we have or we cannot be his disciple - Luke 9:23;14:27,33) --whom we have not preached, or if ye receive “another spirit”, (small s–the Holy Spirit is Truth - John 14:17, 15:26, & 16:13, 1 John 5:6–They will preach another truth, which is not the truth at all, but a lie disguised as the truth) – which ye have not received, or “another gospel”,–the true gospel is death to the flesh/self and the resurrection daily in our mortal bodies - 1 Cor 15:1-4, 2 Cor 4:10-12,16,17 -

The “other Jesus” requires no death to self, no daily cross, no self denial, but rather, this Jesus does not resurrect in us daily – instead he says to us that we can “distribute fortunes” (daemon) to ourselves thus ruling our own flesh, setting our own rules and overthrowing (diabolos) the law of God in our lives – this gospel is no gospel, that fulfills the flesh.) It is the devil’s counterfeit gospel.-which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For such are false apostles deceitful (dolios- to live by trickery, decoy, guile) workers, transforming (metaschematizo - disguise or change) themselves into the apostles of Christ (It is the devil disguised as Jesus)–but it is another Jesus. And no marvel - for Satan himself is transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) into an angel of light… Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall be according to their works. (They will pass themselves off as truth-sayers when they are soothsayers.)**

??? What’s your point???

 

[Verita]

I voted no.

I think it’s quite obvious that the gospel that many protestants believe is different from what the Catholic Church teaches. (I can’t and won’t attempt to speak for all protestants.) In many cases what they believe directly contradicts the truth, such as their tendency to interpret things merely symbolically. In other cases it is simply lacking.

What they believe may still be similar or even very close in some areas. But they have rejected much of the truth. That said the gospel they believe can’t possibly be called the same gospel that Catholics believe. They are sadly lacking in so many of the truths that Catholics have.

I left my protestant church because there is a difference and it’s very important. To say there is no difference is diminishing the importance of Truth, which is what Jesus came here for.

 

[Melchior]

1 Corinthians 15: 3-4:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures

That’s the Gospel. Do you believe it?

Mel

 

[Melchior]

I think its a well known fact that most protestants don’t believe that Catholics will go to heaven. To a protestant, a Catholic is not born again, thus Catholics are not going to heaven. I assure you that every baptized Catholic is indeed Born Again and is a member of God’s family. But from this will spring so much more in Protestant opposition, from the Eucharist, Church Authority, Confession, Intercessory Prayer to Saints and so on. From a protestants perspective the Catholics are so far away from the truth, that they find a need to give to us the Gospel. When in fact Catholics already have the Gospel but it is not recognized through the eye’s of a protestant. I believe a protestant can assume that Catholic beliefs do not come from the gospel teachings of scripture, and therefore what we share in the Gospel are not the same. We are on complete opposite sides, it has been and will continue to be. I believe most protestants would believe that we do not share the same gospel truths. And I would definitely have to agree!

My mother lived and died a Catholic. I have no doubt she is in Heaven.

Mel (A Protestant)

 

[Verita]

My mother lived and died a Catholic. I have no doubt she is in Heaven.

Mel (A Protestant)

You’ll notice that he said “most protestants”, not all.

It’s wonderful that you believe that.

 

[Melchior]

What is interesting is that I read here where someone said that Catholics are born again/born of God at baptism. If they are truly born again, then why do we see so many of them falling away from faith or making a mockery of Christianity by living a life of worldiness and idolatry. The Bible says that the person who is born of God will show evidences such as these…

If you are going to follow this line of logic you should become a Mormon. They have a much better track record than Baptists at staying faithful to their beliefs. Consider for a moment that their are billions of Catholics in the world and many are fallen away. Doesn’t it make you wonder why satan would bother with them if they were in such error anyway? Why are they so attacked by him and the Mormons are not? Perhaps because he is happy to have they remain in a cult?

Mel

 

[djrakowski]

If you are going to follow this line of logic you should become a Mormon. They have a much better track record than Baptists at staying faithful to their beliefs. Consider for a moment that their are billions of Catholics in the world and many are fallen away. Doesn’t it make you wonder why satan would bother with them if they were in such error anyway? Why are they so attacked by him and the Mormons are not? Perhaps because he is happy to have they remain in a cult?

:clapping:

 

[Linkowski]

What I am saying is that the Bible says that those who are born of God will persevere…

Catholics say they are born again at baptism…

BUT - some fall away completely…

Therefore, either God’s Word is wrong, or this doctrine saying people are born again through infant baptism is wrong.

You choose.

 

[Image_of_God]

What I am saying is that the Bible says that those who are born of God will persevere…

Catholics say they are born again at baptism…

BUT - some fall away completely…

Therefore, either God’s Word is wrong, or this doctrine saying people are born again through infant baptism is wrong.

You choose.

The fact is that people do fall away, whether baptized as an infant or an adult. Born again does not mean once saved always saved, it means the removal of original sin. The Catholic concept of “born again” is different from the concept of some Protestants.

Jesus knew that even if some people were “born again of water and Spirit” some would fall away. There is no absolute assurance of salvation. It matters little of when you are baptized.

 

[Verita]

What I am saying is that the Bible says that those who are born of God will persevere…

Catholics say they are born again at baptism…

BUT - some fall away completely…

Therefore, either God’s Word is wrong, or this doctrine saying people are born again through infant baptism is wrong.

You choose.

Those who are born of God will persevere… if, as Jesus taught, they take up their cross and follow him everyday.

The fact is that whether or not you’ve been Baptized, you still have free will. You can still choose to turn away from God. God doesn’t remove that choice when we are Born Again, he merely gives us extra help along the way.

 

[djrakowski]

The fact is that people do fall away, whether baptized as an infant or an adult. Born again does not mean once saved always saved, it means the removal of original sin. The Catholic concept of “born again” is different from the concept of some Protestants.

Herein lies the key to this problem of whether Catholics and Protestants believe in the same gospel. So many different messages are preached by so many different Protestant teachers that nothing can be said to characterize Protestants as a whole. At best, we can offer a characterization of some aspects of some Protestants, and praise them where they get it right (and there’s lots and lots of agreements between many Protestants and the teachings of the Catholic Church).

Do we believe the same gospel? In many ways, yes. In the most important ways, absolutely. We both believe Jesus when he says “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6, NIV). We also agree on this: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9, NIV).

That’s a pretty solid foundation upon which to work toward Christian unity.

 

[Melchior]

What I am saying is that the Bible says that those who are born of God will persevere…

Catholics say they are born again at baptism…

BUT - some fall away completely…

Therefore, either God’s Word is wrong, or this doctrine saying people are born again through infant baptism is wrong.

You choose.

The Word of God talks about apostasy as something very real. So why warn people, as scripture does, if it can’t happen? But I do agree, if you are saying, that all of the elect will be given final perseverance. But not everyone who says “Lord Lord” will be saved.

Mel

 

[djrakowski]

Those who are born of God will persevere… if, as Jesus taught, they take up their cross and follow him everyday.

The fact is that whether or not you’ve been Baptized, you still have free will. You can still choose to turn away from God. God doesn’t remove that choice when we are Born Again, he merely gives us extra help along the way.

Excellent point!

God does not force us to obey after having given us the grace to believe. If we don’t choose on our own to obey, then we have chosen not to continue in love. And throughout the gospels, Jesus shows us the way to love - and that is to do what he says (Matthew 19, Mark 10, Luke 18, John 14).

Love is not something that happens automatically. It is a daily choice to take up that cross (thanks, Verita!) and follow him. If it were automatic, then why would it have to be commanded? We would just be doing so without being told.