Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[joe370]

Many protestant assemblies celebrate many feasts like Christmas, Easter, Ash-Wednesday and many others in remembrance of Christ, even though the Holy Bible is silent on such celebrations; why is that? What does the Bible say about these celebrations? Let us find out from the scriptures. From Genesis through Malachi, nothing is said to be done in remembrance of Christ, but in the Gospels and in the Epistles, a feast is instituted to be done in Christ’s remembrance and that is the Lord’s Supper. God sent Christ to die and deliver us from our sins. (Romans 5) Before His death, He commanded His disciples to partake of the supper in His remembrance. (Matthew 26.26-28; Mark 14.22-25; Luke 22.14-19.)

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body.’ And He took the cup, and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; for this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26.26-28.)

Note: All four gospels give the same account, and in Luke 22.19, Jesus said, “This do in remembrance of me.” Also, the apostle Paul wrote to the church at Corinth concerning the Lord’s Supper, when he heard they were partaking of it improperly. (1 Corinthians 11.20-34.) In verse 23 it reads:

“For I have received from the Lord, that which I also delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus Christ the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks, He brake it and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body which was broken for you. This do in remembrance of Me.”

From this, we can see that Paul quoted what was already recorded in the gospels and is exactly what Christ told His disciples. In fact, apart from this supper, nothing else is said in the Bible to be done in Christ’s remembrance. Neither Christmas or Easter is mentioned anywhere in the Bible as a memorial of our Lord, yet it’s done by all churches because it was done first by the C.C.; the P.C.'S BORROWED THIS TRADITION FROM THE C.C. and yet they reject the traditions of the C.C.

The Word of God says, “Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 9) Please, friend, followall of the doctrines of Christ! (Matthew 7.25.) There is no indication in the Bible that Christ Himself ever celebrated His birthday anywhere as he lived on earth for about 33 years. Why did God not tell us in the Scriptures when Christ’s birthday was? Why is this week holy week for your church? Why do you celebrate Easter and Christmas on days selected by the C.C., AND NOT JESUS OR THE FOUNDATION OF HIS CHURCH, THE APOSTLES? These are traditions of the C.C.

Shouldn’t we obey God by observing the Lord’s Supper in remembrance of Christ. The warning is still in effect: “If ye love Me, keep My commandments,” not just cherry pick the ones that you find tolerable (John 14.15.)

The Lord’s Supper is a commemorative ordinance, a memorial of Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross. It is a feast of living union of believers with the Saviour, whereby they truly, that is spiritually and by faith, receive Christ with all His benefits, and are nourished with His life unto eternal life (The Supper is a personal fellowship with Christ. Partaking of one bread creates fellowship between the members too; it merges them into one body, the church.

This is what Paul was talking about in I Corinthians 10:16, 17, when he asked, "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the partaking of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread. It is a thanks offering to Christ, who died for us all so that we might live for Him. But it is also an acted sermon, an acted proclamation of the death which it commemorates to proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes (I Corinthians 11:26).

Agreed???

 

[joe370]

Russ, one more thing; did Jesus build a church or write the books of the Holy Bible, before He ascended into the clouds…?

 

[ralphy]

Why, nothing. By grace are we saved, just as it says.

Now, what are the channels of those Graces?

Grace is unmerited favor,it is straight from God. We don’t need any other channel. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Without the priest there is no salvation. Without the Christian pastor, there still is salvation. The Catholic is dependant upon the work of the priest for SALVATION. This is a huge difference.

If you were saved only by Christ’s redemptive work, what need is there for the work of the priest for SALVATION? You trust in the work of the church in addition to the work of Christ. If this were not true, there would be no need for a daily mass someplace on the earth. BOTH are required in the CC, not Christ alone.

You have to be kidding,(both the priest and Christ are required for salvation) .Just read Eph 2:8,9 and everything will become very clear Ralph

 

[inkaneer]

Protestants want to think that in John 6 when Jesus says, “My words are spirit…” that He means they are figurative or symbolic and not literal. But that is nonsense. From the passage it is clear that the Jews and Jesus’ own disciples understood Jesus literally. It is also clear that they understood Him to be speaking physically. Jesus knew this. This is why He said “My words are spirit…” Jesus was indeed speaking literally but not physically. He was speaking spiritually. Thus the contrast between the manna in the dessert which fed God’s people physically and the Eucharist which feeds God’s people spiritually. People who ate the manna all eventually died because it only fed their physical bodies but the people who eat the Eucharist will all live because it feeds their spiritual soul. Scripture says that the jews and some of His own disciples left Him and He watched them walk away. If they misunderstood Him thinking he was talking literally when He was speaking figuratively then Jesus owed them an explanation, at least to His own disciples. Jesus always explained His parables to them. But Jesus offers them no explanation other than His words were spiritual and not physical. He offers no explanation that He was speaking figuratively because He wasn’t. He was being very literal. The only explanation He gives was that His words were spiritual not physical. Had Jesus been speaking figuratively and did not explain that, at least His own disciples, then Jesus commits a sin by allowing people to abandoned their salvation because of their misunderstanding that Jesus was aware of but did not try to resolve. Peter’s response for the Apostles indicates they were not sure what Jesus meant but they were not going to leave Him. They probably understood better at the Last Supper and they certainly understood on Pentecost when they received the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

 

[cazayoux]

You have to be kidding,(both the priest and Christ are required for salvation) .Just read Eph 2:8,9 and everything will become very clear Ralph

Eph 2:8-10
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ralphy … we’ve pointed this out to you before … to continue to ignore verse 10 … YOU ARE IGNORING SCRIPTURE.
You gotta read it ALL … not just the verses you like.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

This is exactly why Jesus must be speaking figuratively in John 6:53 because if He is not, He is contradicting Himself on many levels (He who believes in Me out of his heart will flow rivers of living water…) and many more places.

Though physical strength comes through the stomach, faith does not come through the stomach. Faith comes by hearing, not by eating.

If your faith was not birthed by eating something, what makes you think that your faith can be strengthened be eating something? That is why Peter said, “…as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby…” We are not birthed spiritually by anything we eat and we are not nourished spiritually by anything we eat. We are both birthed and nourished by the word of God, "that we may grow thereby”.

I don’t see the contradiction you are talking about.
I never said that faith comes by eating.
If you ARE partaking in the Eucharist, you would do so because you believe, not in order to believe.
Your parallel to this scripture just doesn’t address what you want it to.

If you haven’t read it, yet, check out my post #166 linked below.

Absolutely.

It seems that non-Catholics see the ‘spirit’ in John 6 as ‘symbolic’, which just isn’t true. ‘Spirit’ and ‘symbolic’ are not at all the same. The trinity is not made of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Symbolic.

:
:

michel

 

[ralphy]

By God, all things are possible.

But you’re trying to find some hole in the doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church. You misunderstand it. “The Church,” in this instance, refers to the mystical body of Christ; not the collection of people who have intentionally been received into the Catholic Church. That is to say: all people in heaven are a part of the Church, but not all of them intentionally and fully entered the Church while living.

The church is the boby of Christ, and you cannot enter heaven outside the Body of Christ, that is you must be saved and be covered by Christ’s blood. Ralph

 

[cazayoux]

The church is the boby of Christ, and you cannot enter heaven outside the Body of Christ, that is you must be saved and be covered by Christ’s blood. Ralph

So I need to ask … HOW are you, Ralphy, covered by Christ’s blood as opposed to someone that is not saved?

I really want to know the HOW.

michel

 

[ralphy]

This question has been answered in this very thread. This is what the Church teaches (copied and pasted from one of my earlier posts in this thread):

Berean,

I see you feel it is necessary to ask this question again and again. YES, Catholics believe John 6:53. Your point, if I understand it correctly, is that we must not believe it because you say that the Church teaches that Muslims can be saved through Muhammad and Jews can be saved through Moses. Let me put this in all caps so it is not misunderstood: THAT IS NOT WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES! You said the Catechism was clear on this point, but you are now not only misinterpreting Scripture, but misunderstanding the teaching of the Church.

The Church teaches that salvation is available to mankind, Christ died for all of us.

The Church has ALWAYS taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

The Church is the body of Christ.

Therefore, there is no salvation outside of the body of Christ.

Non-Catholics are imperfectly a part of the Church. You do not need to be a Catholic in practice to be a catholic in person. The part of the CCC that you claim is saying that we believe that Muslims will be saved through Muhammad and Jews through Moses is describing the Church’s relationship with mankind.

CCC 836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God…And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ (you), and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.

The CCC goes on to describe the Church’s relationship with non-Catholic Christians (see 838). It then describes our relationship with non-Christians: Jews 839, 840; Muslims 841; others 842-844. Finally, in 845, the Church states:

"To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world. According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

To understand para 841, which you have referenced, you must have a least a vague understanding of Lumen Gentium which states, “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)”

This footnote (19) states, “no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.”

It goes on, “Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.”

And, “when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.”

To sum it up, this letter states, “…those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition “in which they cannot be sure of their salvation” since “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church” (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion.”

Bottom line, there is no salvation outside the Church. To answer your hypothetical question that you just posted, I believe that the Church’s teaching is that no, this person would not be saved. This person has rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church. This would not be case of invincible ignorance of the Gospel. Does that answer your question?

Peace.

We must remember to keep in mind that when God talks about His church, He is talking about the “Body of Christ” which make up His church, all those who are saved. This is the “cathoilc” (universal) church, not the “Roman” catholic church, unless some in the “Roman” catholic church are saved. Ralph

 

[NotWorthy]

**Hey NotWorthy…

No one will answer that question I’m afraid; gee, I wonder why??? **

Patience, brother!!

Like I said, this thread is going fast. I’ll just keep asking.

Personally, I think BereanRuss has tried admirably to answer as many questions as possible. Like I said before, patience.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Eph 2:8-10
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ralphy … we’ve pointed this out to you before … to continue to ignore verse 10 … YOU ARE IGNORING SCRIPTURE.
You gotta read it ALL … not just the verses you like.

michel

Great point.

Incidentally I have zero problem with affirming salvation by Grace alone, and as far as I know either does the Church. It is the other problem that is often read into this verse by many Protestants; that a person is saved by faith alone that I have, and the Church has, issues with.

Just to clarity and so the non-Catholic Christians are not confused; it is not the Grace part of this verse that we have issues with; it is the ‘faith alone’ aspect that is read into this verse that is being questioned. I don’t want non-Catholics (or even Catholics) to come away from this thinking that the Church denies salvation by Grace alone.

God bless

 

[NotWorthy]

Grace is unmerited favor,it is straight from God. We don’t need any other channel. Ralph

So… why did Jesus give the Apostles the authority to:
a) Bind and Loose
b) Forgive and remit our sins.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

We must remember to keep in mind that when God talks about His church, He is talking about the “Body of Christ” which make up His church, all those who are saved. This is the “cathoilc” (universal) church, not the “Roman” catholic church, unless some in the “Roman” catholic church are saved. Ralph

As has been mentioned ad infinitum; the Catholic Church is not contained solely within the Latin Rite (Roman) of the Church.

God bless

 

[NotWorthy]

We must remember to keep in mind that when God talks about His church, He is talking about the “Body of Christ” which make up His church, all those who are saved. This is the “cathoilc” (universal) church, not the “Roman” catholic church, unless some in the “Roman” catholic church are saved. Ralph

So, Ralph, along this line, Jesus has two teachings on Forgiveness. Please address why:

a) Jesus tells us to forgive others or else we will not be forgiven.
b) Jesus gives some authority to forgive and not to forgive others.

I’ve give you a hint. In a), He was talking to the body of believers that you mention. In b), he was talking to a select group. What does that select group represent? Do you have the same authority to withhold the sins as those in group b), or are you compounded to forgive your brothers as group a).

 

[ralphy]

Eph 2:8-10
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ralphy … we’ve pointed this out to you before … to continue to ignore verse 10 … YOU ARE IGNORING SCRIPTURE.
You gotta read it ALL … not just the verses you like.

michel

Verse 10 is a great verse, if you will note in that verse it uses the words “in Christ Jesus”, meaning that you are saved, you cannot be saved outside of Christ Jesus. Good works follow salvation. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

So, Ralph, along this line, Jesus has two teachings on Forgiveness. Please address why:

a) Jesus tells us to forgive others or else we will not be forgiven.
b) Jesus gives some authority to forgive and not to forgive others.

I’ve give you a hint. In a), He was talking to the body of believers that you mention. In b), he was talking to a select group. What does that select group represent? Do you have the same authority to withhold the sins as those in group b), or are you compounded to forgive your brothers as group a).

I believe in group A. In group B, Jesus does not have a select group to forgive or withhold sins. God is the only one who can forgive sins. Ralph

 

[BereanRuss]

:banghead:

Brad,

If I am causing you such agony, explain how the priest not not necessay for salvation in the CC.

 

[BereanRuss]

If you don’t need the teachings of your Pastor for salvation, which are, absolutely good works, then why defer to him; take it right to Jesus Christ, via your Holy Bible, codified and canonized by a P.C. --right or wrong? The Catholic is NOT dependent upon the work of the priest for SALVATION; he is dependent upon the work of the High Priest, Jesus Christ, for SALVATION, working through His ministerial priests and His royal priests!!!

Joe,

There is a huge difference here. The work of the Pastor does not add to the finished work of Christ but the work of the CP is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for SALVATION. Catholics on THIS blog have argued with me that the priest IS necessary. They put it this way:

No priest – No Jesus – No church – No salvation.

When I ask them how it is that the priest comes before Jesus in the above list, they have no real answer

Why is it that on one post Catholics argue that the priest is absolutely necessary and on the next post argue exactly the opposite?

 

[NotWorthy]

Verse 10 is a great verse, if you will note in that verse it uses the words “in Christ Jesus”, meaning that you are saved, you cannot be saved outside of Christ Jesus. Good works follow salvation. Ralph

Of course good work follow salvation. And they are necessary for our Judgment, according to numerous parables of Jesus.

As a matter of fact, every time Jesus speaks of our Judgment, he makes our good works (our participation in Salvation) part of the reason we receive our particular Judgment. Does that mean someone earns their Salvation? No way!!! It would be like a child telling his mom, “I cleaned my room, mommy, now where’s my million dollars”!

And what happens if a Christian, who is in Christ, ignores these good works and goes about their business doing what ever they feel like? Well… I hope you don’t mind being with the other goats!