Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[jmcrae]

Anyone willing to go back on subject? No one has ever answered how Jews, Muslims and others can be saved under the umbrella of the CC without taking communion in the CC without making Jesus a liar when He says, “Amen, amen I say to you…”

By some miracle, they may be saved. By that same miracle, no doubt God would baptize them, Confirm them, and give them Holy Communion. What such a miracle would look like, I do not know, since I have never seen or heard of it happening.

Like I said before, if it were me, I would not be staking my salvation on the appearance of that miracle - if I were a non-Catholic (I was, at one time) I would be taking every possible step to get into His Church (which I did do) despite every obstacle (it took me 17 years to overcome a great many obstacles, before I finally became Catholic).

The problem here is the priesthood. If the CC priesthood is from God then Jesus’ words must be literal. But if the words of Jesus are literal then His words are not true for the CC also says that many Jews and Muslims, and others will be saved without the Eucharist but Jesus clearly says that NONE apart from the Eucharist can be saved.

IF they are saved, then they also will receive the Eucharist, in some manner that is completely unknown to us, by means of the same miracle that God gives them, that causes them to become saved in the first place.

No one will be saved outside the Catholic Church. Everyone in Heaven is a Catholic - even if they did not actually convert until they got to Purgatory.

 

[guanophore]

Never a scripture, never a verse.

It has become abundantly clear, Berean, that trying to discuss scripture with you has not been very effective. You do not seem willing to understand the scriptures from the point of view of those who wrote them. At least a dozen members on this thread have tried to show you the faith we have recieved from the Apostles, and how it is reflected in the scriptures. Each and every time,you have ignored or set aside. their efforts, in favor of your own perceptions.

If you do at some point arrive at a more intellectually honest place in your life, you may be willing to at least try to understand what other people believe, and why. Until that happens, it seems likely that all of the efforts here will fall upon deaf ears. However, the quality of the postings of the Catholic members on this thread has been excellent, and I have full confidence that there are lurkers reading them who can benefit from them, as I have.

Then there is that little warning about the pearls…

 

[guanophore]

True, which includes all believers who are born of the Spirit right?

No. Jesus did some things for His apostles that He did not do for everyone. God has only “breathed” into man twice, once at the original creation, and then when He breathed life into his fledgling church after His resurrction.

I don’t believe in cannibalism. This is not Jesus’s body and blood, it is a symbol of His body and blood. Ralph

It is good that you do not believe in the Real PResence this way, since cannablism is wrong. It is good you do not believe Jesus meant what He said, because of your deficient understanding and persistent unbelief. This will prevent you from sacrilige.

It is strange, though, that people like you believe this way, as you don’t seem to believe that Jesus gave his symbolic blood and flesh, yet Jesus said that the Bread and Wine became the same Body and Blood that He gave for the life of the world. Catholics don’t believe in cannabalism either, but we believe Jesus gave his real body and blood,a nd not a symbol on the cross. We carry the crucified figure as a symbol of His sacrifice, but we believe His sacrifice was His own real body and blood.

Cannibalism is the eating of any person, dead or alive, as described in the dictionary. I say , how can you eat of the flesh and blood of Christ when He is not here, He is seated on the right hand of the Father in heaven, interceding for us. Ralph

Really? Oh, I thought they had to be dead. Anyway, it is irrelevant, because Jesus is God, and it is not just “any person”. No one here is claiming to know “how” He can do this. You are asking the same questions that the unbelieving Jews did when He gave this teaching. He repeatedly told them “the flesh is of no avail”. This is a divine mystery, like te Trinity, and the incarnation, that cannot be explained with the human mind. Catholics, like the Apostles from whom we received this teaching, accept what He said in faith.

You are warm, though, because the early Pagans accused the Christians of “cannabilism” and they were charged with “drownding their children and eating their God”. This is a secular testimony to the faith of the Apostles.

As I said, Christ is not here, how can you eat Him if you cannot touch Him. It is NOT His body and blood. Ralph

The Apostles taught that His physical presence had passed into the Bread and the Wine when it was consecrated. He says clearly that we must “eat” Him. How can you not?

 

[jmcrae]

If you symbolically eat a symbolic Eucharist, do you then go to a symbolic Heaven?

 

[joe370]

I might have mentioned specific sins as we walked the road together or fellowshipped to together but I not to receive absolution through the priest as another earthly mediator as you do.

I am not a priest in the sense that a catholic priest is a priest.

I am trying to keep my questions brief, as you requested!

1. Do yo you believe that the apostles who were sinful, fallible people, were empowered by Jesus to either forgive or remit sins, 2000 years ago?
2. Did Jesus’’ established church circa 33 AD teach erroneously vis-a-vis the literal interpretation as opposed to the symbolical interpretation, of John 6, for the first 300 years of Christianity…for the first 1500 years of Christianity?
3. Since the 2 churches that can trace their lineage all the way back to the apostolic age are dead wrong, perhaps you could tell me what Jesus is talking about when He said:
   
   "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
   
   Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
   
   For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
   
   Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
   
   Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
   
   This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
4. When --Jesus said to them, [in verse 35]— I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst…

Why did the Jews murmur about him [in verse 41]–because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven…after He clearly said: whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst…???

1. When Jesus said: Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink…what did He mean, since the C.C. and E.O.C. seem to be clueless?
2. In vs 63, Jesus said: It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

In vs 66, as a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. WHY???

In vs 67, Jesus turned to the Twelve and said: “Do you also want to leave?” AND Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”

Russ, in your opinion, should I

a) follow the grumblers?

OR

b) follow the Apostles?

1. A priest in any capacity is a mediator; do you consider yourself a priest?

Perhaps this format will be a bit more user-friendly!

 

[joe370]

Hey Russ and Ralph, happy Easter, and happy Easter to ALL here at CAF!!!

Today my sister tried to tell me that the C.C. was a product of Constantine; of course that was misinformation provided by her Pastor! However, that is a good question; when did the Church established by Jesus Christ get the name Catholic?

Jesus Christ left the adoption of a name for His Church to those whom he empowered/commissioned to teach all nations, ALL that Jesus commanded. Jesus Christ called this spiritual Assembly that He established circa 33 AD, “My Church” (Matthew 18), “the Church” (Matthew 7).

In order to have a distinction between the Church and the Synagogue and to have a distinguishing name from those embracing Judaic and Gnostic errors we find St. Ignatius (50-107 AD) using the Greek word “Katholicos” (universal) to describe the universality of the Church established by Christ, and he uses the name Catholic as if, she as the bride of Christ, has already spanned the entire (known) world! St. Ignatius was appointed Bishop of Antioch by St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome. It is in his writings that we find the word Catholic used for the first time. I can actually provide many references to Jesus’ church, as Catholic long before Constantine!!!

St. Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of the Apostle John, concerning the heretics of his day wrote: “They have abstained from the Eucharist and prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of Our Savior Jesus Christ.”

St. Justin Martyr, another Church Father of the second century wrote: “This food is known among us as the Eucharist… We do not receive these things as common bread and common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior, being made flesh by the Word of God.”

Many more citations from men who belonged to Jesus’ established C.C., long before the C.C. codified/canonized the Holy Bible can be provided. My question is: did St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was taught by the Apostle John and Peter, teach erroneously vis-a-vis the Eucharist?

God bless all on this momentous day…

 

[DominicVobiscum]

To answer the original question, yes of course the Catholic Church teaches that all scripture is the word of God, and is to be believed by the faithful. Within the Church, there is no way to receive the body and blood of Christ outside of the Eucharist.

A follow on in scripture can be found in 1 Corinthians 11:23-29. whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

You cannot drink judgment on yourself for only a symbol.

 

[SHW]

In order to have a distinction between the Church and the Synagogue and to have a distinguishing name from those embracing Judaic and Gnostic errors we find St. Ignatius (50-107 AD) using the Greek word “Katholicos” (universal) to describe the universality of the Church established by Christ, and he uses the name Catholic as if, she as the bride of Christ, has already spanned the entire (known) world! St. Ignatius was appointed Bishop of Antioch by St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome. It is in his writings that we find the word Catholic used for the first time. I can actually provide many references to Jesus’ church, as Catholic long before Constantine!!!

Yes, Scripture states that the whole “known” world was preached to in the Apostles’ lifetimes.

Romans 1:8 “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”

Romans 16:25-27 “Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.”

Acts 2:5-6 “And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[joe370]

Yes, Scripture states that the whole “known” world was preached to in the Apostles’ lifetimes.

Romans 1:8 “First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”

Romans 16:25-27 “Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.”

Acts 2:5-6 “And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.”

Pax,
SHW

I totally agree with you, however, non-Catholics will simply say, not all of them: the word Catholic cannot be found in those passages…in the Holy Bible; to that I say: where can the word Protestant be found, and illustrate that the same people that preceded the codifiers/canonizers of sacred scripture, referred to Jesus’ On church as Catholic; my own sister still refuses to belief this.

 

[SHW]

I totally agree with you, however, non-Catholics will simply say, not all of them: the word Catholic cannot be found in those passages…in the Holy Bible; to that I say: where can the word Protestant be found, and illustrate that the same people that preceded the codifiers/canonizers of sacred scripture, referred to Jesus’ On church as Catholic; my own sister still refuses to belief this.

Howdy

If they truly are searching for truth, then they will eventually have to acknowledge that “catholic” simply meant “universal” as in “throughout the whole known world.” The American continents had not been discovered yet. People can always come up with excuses in order to avoid truth.

Pax,
SHW

 

[joe370]

Russ, Ralph, whoever…Regarding the interpretation of Jon 6…

If the Holy Spirit Who is “guiding” and “teaching” Jesus’ established church in perpetuity, guided and inspired the Holy C.C. to accurately codify/canonize the Holy Bible, then logically speaking, the Holy Spirit guided/guides and inspired/inspires Jesus’ Holy C.C. to accurately interpret the Holy Bible; is that a reasonable assessment?

 

[NotWorthy]

As I said, Christ is not here, how can you eat Him if you cannot touch Him. It is NOT His body and blood. Ralph

Yes, I understand that this is what you believe (even though nobody in the Early Church believed that).

So, how do you explain this figuratively, if “eating my flesh” is symbolic of loathing and reviling somebody?!?

It’s a rather simple question, Ralph.

 

[cazayoux]

Cannibalism is the eating of any person, dead or alive, as described in the dictionary. I say , how can you eat of the flesh and blood of Christ when He is not here, He is seated on the right hand of the Father in heaven, interceding for us. Ralph

With cannibalism, in any sense, the ‘victim’ is diminished.
With the Eucharist, Jesus is NOT diminished.

You fall in line with the pagans to consider consuming the Eucharist the same as cannibalism.
Not a good place to be.

michel

 

[ralphy]

Russ, Ralph, whoever…Regarding the interpretation of Jon 6…

If the Holy Spirit Who is “guiding” and “teaching” Jesus’ established church in perpetuity, guided and inspired the Holy C.C. to accurately codify/canonize the Holy Bible, then logically speaking, the Holy Spirit guided/guides and inspired/inspires Jesus’ Holy C.C. to accurately interpret the Holy Bible; is that a reasonable assessment?

I agree with your statement. However, do you know who belongs to Gods church. I believe you consider that Roman catholics make up Gods church. Can you tell me who belongs to Gods church? Ralph

 

[ralphy]

I totally agree with you, however, non-Catholics will simply say, not all of them: the word Catholic cannot be found in those passages…in the Holy Bible; to that I say: where can the word Protestant be found, and illustrate that the same people that preceded the codifiers/canonizers of sacred scripture, referred to Jesus’ On church as Catholic; my own sister still refuses to belief this.

Did you find anywhere in scripture where it spells “catholic” with a capital “c”, catholic means universal. Ralph

 

[NotWorthy]

I agree with your statement. However, do you know who belongs to Gods church. I believe you consider that Roman catholics make up Gods church. Can you tell me who belongs to Gods church? Ralph

See, there you go again, mis-representing what the Catholic Church teaches. I see, once again, where you are having trouble in Scripture interpretation.

The Catholic Church teaches that anyone baptized, with water and the Trinitarian Formula, is a member of the Catholic Church - God’s Church.

 

[BereanRuss]

Then why do you ignore the awesome authority that Jesus gave the Apostles?

The teaching of the Apostles is found the in the word of God for they authored the NT. The teaching of the Apostles is not found in church tradition for they did not author it.

The Apostles never established an earthly priesthood. Consider this list from the Apostle Paul:

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

If God has established the priest in the church, why is the priest missing from this list and completely missing from the NT? How can the priesthood be so essential to the Christian faith and be completely missing from the NT?

Yes, you are totally correct in that statement! You haven’t had the Apostollically passed-on hands as a Catholic Priest has. Awesome!

God gives gifts to the church as He see fit.

…to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

 

[PRmerger]

The teaching of the Apostles is found the in the word of God for they authored the NT.

Does the NT tell us what books/gospels/epistles belong in the NT? How did you come to believe that the Gospel of Matthew is the inspired word of God, yet the gospel of Thomas is not, Russ? Is that in the NT, or is it through Tradition that we’ve come to know what is inspired?

If God has established the NT, why is the list of what books are inspired completely missing from the NT? How can the canon of Scriptures be so essential to the Christian faith and be completely missing from the NT?

 

[NotWorthy]

The teaching of the Apostles is found the in the word of God for they authored the NT. The teaching of the Apostles is not found in church tradition for they did not author it.

The Apostles never established an earthly priesthood. Consider this list from the Apostle Paul:

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

If God has established the priest in the church, why is the priest missing from this list and completely missing from the NT? How can the priesthood be so essential to the Christian faith and be completely missing from the NT?

Yes, you are totally correct in that statement! You haven’t had the Apostollically passed-on hands as a Catholic Priest has. Awesome!

God gives gifts to the church as He see fit.

…to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Then let’s step back and look at this with just the question I asked. Then we’ll address the priesthood.

Jesus gave a group of people the authority to Forgive Sins. Do you believe this?

 

[PRmerger]

…to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Do you accept, Russ, that every single time you quote Scripture, you’re giving your affirmation to the Truth of Sacred Tradition? For you would not know what is inspired were it not for the Catholic Church’s declaration, through Tradition, of what is Scripture and what is not! It was the CC that decided the canon–there can be no disputing that fact.