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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
That is a slanderous comment:nope: We honor Mary,you apparently worship your own oppinion
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Zippy
Guest
“Mary Queen of the Universe” catholics worship her just like the pagans worshipped their “Queen of the Universe”, the goddess that the catholic church modeled Mary after.
Mary is just a catholic goddess that catholics worship.
Mary is just a catholic goddess that catholics worship.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Zippy said:
Oh please,you slanderer you
We honor Mary,you are raving nonsense.
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Lorarose
Guest
(Yawn)
Wow - never heard THAT before!!!
Hey Zip…do a search on the apologetics forum.
This has been discussed over and over and over and over…
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Zippy
Guest
quote=Lorarose
Wow - never heard THAT before!!!
Hey Zip…do a search on the apologetics forum.
This has been discussed over and over and over and over…
[/quote]
That doesn’t change the facts though. Mary is a catholic goddess. Apologists can spin the church’s view of history, and church teachings, but it doesn’t change the fact that catholic actions do not match the rhetoric.
Wow - never heard THAT before!!!
Hey Zip…do a search on the apologetics forum.
This has been discussed over and over and over and over…
[/quote]
That doesn’t change the facts though. Mary is a catholic goddess. Apologists can spin the church’s view of history, and church teachings, but it doesn’t change the fact that catholic actions do not match the rhetoric.
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Zippy
Guest
Not even close to the same thing. We don’t pray to Lincoln, or believe that Lincoln holds a key that we can’t hold on our own.
We also don’t focus a huge percentage of our time “honoring” Lincoln. Catholics pray to Mary more than they pray to God…that’s worshipping.
"HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope" only the blind will not see this as worship, christians view Christ as their hope.
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Lorarose
Guest
Mary is not a catholic “goddess”
If she were - we would freely admit to it.
Anti-catholics can spin their view of history, church teachings, but it doesn’t change that their views are rooted in prejudice, bigotry, and hatred of catholics.
Mary is the queen mother.
Why?
Because her Divine Son is the King.
Why would the MOTHER of the King be queen?
Because Jesus fulfills the promises God made to King David.
Jesus is a davidic king.
In the davidic kingdoms - it was not the wife of the kings who was the queen - but rather the mother of the king.
But don’t take my word for it - look it up in the Old Testament for yourself.
If Jesus is the King, and Mary the queen mother - and Jesus is King of the Universe (He is isn’t He?) Then His mother - the queen mother - is queen of the universe.
This does not raise her to goddess status - it simply fulfills her role as mother of the King.
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AsStAnselmPrays
Guest
reen12, this is an EXCELLENT analogy. If you don’t mind, I’ll be using it when I get the usual “you worship Mary” sermon from my Protestant friends. Thanks!
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VociMike
Guest
Do you worship God, Zip?
Do you deny or affirm that you worship God?
Do Catholics worship God?
Do Catholics deny or affirm that they worship God?
Do Catholics deny or affirm that they worship Mary?
What conclusions do you draw?
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reen12
Guest
Dear StAnselmPrays,
Thank you for your kind words. It was called to my
attention by other posters that an objection would
arise that “We don’t pray to Lincoln.”
Wait for it…
Zippy then posts that Lincoln isn’t prayed to.
Oh, my achin’ head.
On the other hand, I don’t think it is forbidden
by the faith to ask Lincoln to ask Jesus to
bless America, if he is in the position to do so.
As to prayers to the saints, for years I had the
thought “Why not pray *exclusively *to Jesus?”
It occurred to me the other night that one of
the benefits of praying to the saints is that
their prayers on our behalf can be offered
continually to God…even when we’re asleep!
Does this seem feasible, theologically, to you?
May the Mother of Jesus look kindly on you,
reen12
Thank you for your kind words. It was called to my
attention by other posters that an objection would
arise that “We don’t pray to Lincoln.”
Wait for it…
Zippy then posts that Lincoln isn’t prayed to.
Oh, my achin’ head.
On the other hand, I don’t think it is forbidden
by the faith to ask Lincoln to ask Jesus to
bless America, if he is in the position to do so.
As to prayers to the saints, for years I had the
thought “Why not pray *exclusively *to Jesus?”
It occurred to me the other night that one of
the benefits of praying to the saints is that
their prayers on our behalf can be offered
continually to God…even when we’re asleep!
Does this seem feasible, theologically, to you?
May the Mother of Jesus look kindly on you,
reen12
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reen12
Guest
Hello, Zippy,
Thank you for your reply to my post, and for
raising an objection that has to be addressed,
in the interest of intellectual integrity if for no
other reason. [though I admit that such an
effort makes my head hurt!
]
Would you please tell me Zippy if you are
theologically opposed to what Catholics would
call “praying to the saints”? If you are
opposed to that practice, then of course it
would make no sense at all, from that position,
to address prayers to the mother of Jesus.
Your point is well taken, I think, that an
inordinate amount of praying to Mary, to
the almost total exclusion of prayers to
her Son, would constitute a massive theological
misemphasis. Why do I think that the mother
of Jesus would be distressed by such a
misemphasis? Partly because, at the wedding
at Cana, she told the stewards staff:
“Do whatever He tells you.”
My reading of the gospels discloses that
Mary knew who she was and knew what
her place in the world would be for all
times: “All generations shall call me
blessed, for the Lord has done great things
for me.”
No, it doesn’t “make sense” to me either.
But, then again, I have to see what the
scriptures say and then go with that.
“All generations shall call me blessed…”
So, OK, I will spend my life referring to
the mother of Jesus as the Blessed Mother.
Again, thanks for your reply to my post.
reen12
Thank you for your reply to my post, and for
raising an objection that has to be addressed,
in the interest of intellectual integrity if for no
other reason. [though I admit that such an
effort makes my head hurt!
]Would you please tell me Zippy if you are
theologically opposed to what Catholics would
call “praying to the saints”? If you are
opposed to that practice, then of course it
would make no sense at all, from that position,
to address prayers to the mother of Jesus.
Your point is well taken, I think, that an
inordinate amount of praying to Mary, to
the almost total exclusion of prayers to
her Son, would constitute a massive theological
misemphasis. Why do I think that the mother
of Jesus would be distressed by such a
misemphasis? Partly because, at the wedding
at Cana, she told the stewards staff:
“Do whatever He tells you.”
My reading of the gospels discloses that
Mary knew who she was and knew what
her place in the world would be for all
times: “All generations shall call me
blessed, for the Lord has done great things
for me.”
No, it doesn’t “make sense” to me either.
But, then again, I have to see what the
scriptures say and then go with that.
“All generations shall call me blessed…”
So, OK, I will spend my life referring to
the mother of Jesus as the Blessed Mother.
Again, thanks for your reply to my post.
reen12
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Zippy
Guest
Where in the scriptures does it say to pray to her, or any of the “saints”?Hello, Zippy,
Thank you for your reply to my post, and for
raising an objection that has to be addressed,
in the interest of intellectual integrity if for no
other reason. [though I admit that such an
effort makes my head hurt!
Would you please tell me Zippy if you are
theologically opposed to what Catholics would
call “praying to the saints”? If you are
opposed to that practice, then of course it
would make no sense at all, from that position,
to address prayers to the mother of Jesus.
Your point is well taken, I think, that an
inordinate amount of praying to Mary, to
the almost total exclusion of prayers to
her Son, would constitute a massive theological
misemphasis. Why do I think that the mother
of Jesus would be distressed by such a
misemphasis? Partly because, at the wedding
at Cana, she told the stewards staff:
“Do whatever He tells you.”
My reading of the gospels discloses that
Mary knew who she was and knew what
her place in the world would be for all
times: “All generations shall call me
blessed, for the Lord has done great things
for me.”
No, it doesn’t “make sense” to me either.
But, then again, I have to see what the
scriptures say and then go with that.
“All generations shall call me blessed…”
So, OK, I will spend my life referring to
the mother of Jesus as the Blessed Mother.
Again, thanks for your reply to my post.
reen12
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Lorarose
Guest
It is about intercession Zippy.
Do you pray for others?
Do others pray for you?
Why do you pray for others when they could just go straight to Jesus?
Why do you ask others to pray for you when you could just go straight to Jesus?
Are they worshipping you?
Are you worshipping them?
Now- I am not going to assume that you don’t worship God simply because you ask others to intercede for you - or because you intercede for others.
The bible is full of examples of people interceding for each other.
Do you assume that when you die you will be incapable of praying for others?
If so…why? Where is that in the bible?
When I read the book of Revelation I see human souls in heaven praying for those still on earth.
They offer their prayers before the altar of God.
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Zippy
Guest
You skirted the actual question…let me restate it so you can address it directly.
Where in the scriptures does it say that you should pray to Mary or any other “saints”?
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AsStAnselmPrays
Guest
I see where you’re coming from, Reen. The thing is, Catholics shouldn’t pray to saints. Prayer and asking for help are two completely different things. Prayer and a request seem to be synonymous, and that is a common misconception. However, I understand your point.
Prayer is defined as a “reverent petition to God or another object of worship.”
Reen, I completely understand where you are coming from. We sleep and do other activities, and sometimes our prayers to God can be distracted, disrupted, or interfered with. Because of this, we ask the saints to pray for us and to petition to God, because they are in continual contact with God (since they’re in heaven).
There is a verse in the Bible that says that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. Protestants intrepret this verse as the mediator of EVERYTHING. However, I feel that this particular verse can be correctly intrepreted as Christ being the only way to get to heaven (by the Sacrements and by following the institution that he founded, the Roman Catholic Church).
The thing is, if you ask people to pray for you, that defeats the purpose of the Protestant’s view of the verse. I went to a Protestant school for 5 years, and every day before every class, we would take prayer requests. Now, this seems to me to be not only a mediation, but also an intercession between God and man. That poses a problem to their own belief, because Christ should be the only one.
So, yes, Reen, your statement seems extremely feasible to me.
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Lorarose
Guest
My apologies Zippy - I will do my best to answer your question, and I look forward to you giving Deacon Ed the same courtesy on another thread!
My reply: Scripture does not explicitly tell us to pray to Mary or the saints for intercession.
Now may I ask a question?
Show me in scripture where intercessory prayer is forbidden.
Show me in scripture where it states souls in heaven are not capable of prayer.
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Lorarose
Guest
Oh yeah…you never addressed any of these questions either.
Would you be so kind?..
<It is about intercession Zippy.
Do you pray for others?
Do others pray for you?
Why do you pray for others when they could just go straight to Jesus?
Why do you ask others to pray for you when you could just go straight to Jesus?
Are they worshipping you?
Are you worshipping them?
Now- I am not going to assume that you don’t worship God simply because you ask others to intercede for you - or because you intercede for others.
The bible is full of examples of people interceding for each other.
Do you assume that when you die you will be incapable of praying for others?
If so…why? Where is that in the bible?
When I read the book of Revelation I see human souls in heaven praying for those still on earth.
They offer their prayers before the altar of God.>
Would you be so kind?..
<It is about intercession Zippy.
Do you pray for others?
Do others pray for you?
Why do you pray for others when they could just go straight to Jesus?
Why do you ask others to pray for you when you could just go straight to Jesus?
Are they worshipping you?
Are you worshipping them?
Now- I am not going to assume that you don’t worship God simply because you ask others to intercede for you - or because you intercede for others.
The bible is full of examples of people interceding for each other.
Do you assume that when you die you will be incapable of praying for others?
If so…why? Where is that in the bible?
When I read the book of Revelation I see human souls in heaven praying for those still on earth.
They offer their prayers before the altar of God.>
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Zippy
Guest
It seems very unproductive to ask someone else to do something for you that you can do for yourself. It also dilutes your efforts to build a relationship with the one you want to get to know and understand better.
I certainly wouldn’t go through my wife’s brother to build a relationship with my wife…at least not one I was serious about maintaining.
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Church_Militant
Guest
To save yourself some pain and redundancy you might have a look at this thread which is talking about this very issue of alleged idolatry:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=40742
Pax vobsicum,
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=40742
Pax vobsicum,
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Church_Militant
Guest
This is A/C trash…
The HHQQ is acknowleging that Mary is the mother of mercy , sweetness and hope…You badly read into it things that any Catholic with half a brain can tell you.
get the money back on the stuff they have sold you and come look at the Idolatry thread if you think you have answers. Don’t hijack this thread.
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