Do Catholics honor Mary?

[catsrus]

This “Zippy” person posted his/her 1st 11 posts on the thread “A Jew comments on The Da Vinci Code” where he turned the thread into an agruement on his understanding, or the lack thereof, of Papal infallibility. He used the exact same “homily #33 by Pope Gregory the Great in 591” arguement on that thread. After Deacon Bob posted a very well researched and thought out answer that completely de bunked Zip’s position, he disappeared from that thread and has posted here 22 times just yesterday. He is a thread highjacker at the least and a T in the 1st degree. I for one am putting him on my ignore list. He contributes nothing of value to any conversation.

 

[reen12]

Hello, all.

I’m the one who started this thread. I’m startled
to find that it has morphed into a discussion
on Magdalene being “misrepresented” by
Pope Gregory in the year 591.
Huh?
reen12

 

[Lorarose]

Hello Reen!!

I hope you have your thread back now!!

 

[reen12]

Dear Lorarose,

Thanks!

reen12

 

[wcknight]

When I was real young I used to think I had 2 mothers, one in Heaven and one on earth. Now I like to think I have 2 mothers, both in Heaven.

WC

 

[reen12]

Well said ! WCKnight.

reen12

 

[teresas1979]

This is very similar to the “Hail Holy Queen” thread. The way I understand it is if you don’t want to pray to Mary, then don’t. Dogma says you must believe in her perpetual virginity, etc but you do not have to pray to her! You can simply pray to Our Lord instead. The “Queen of Heaven” title is another one which many find annoying. If so, don’t use it. Some people like to see Mary as Queen of Heaven because as Jesus’ mother she is queen where He is King but if you think this gives her too much praise then simply don’t use it.

BTW if any Catholic says that you must pray to Mary I would ask them to provide Church teaching which says this as the way I understand it is Catholics are meant to believe Mary and the saints **can **intercede but that they **do not have to **invoke their assistance

 

[Lillith]

Reen…I wish I were that talented…that’s beautiful.

The statues and stain glass windows and all the beauty of the catholic church originated very early on when most all of everyone did not know how to read…a picture is worth a thousand words!

Hold on to tradition…the wonder of the Catholic church is that she doesn’t bow to the winds of change. just as God does not change!!

 

[wcknight]

“Mary Queen of the Universe” catholics worship her just like the pagans worshipped their “Queen of the Universe”, the goddess that the catholic church modeled Mary after.

Mary is just a catholic goddess that catholics worship.

Don’t let Jesus hear you say that about His mother ! He would wash your mouth out with soap, or something far worse.

wc

 

[nettro]

Lets look at 3 different verses for ALL humanity:

Romans 3:23 - “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
– as you can see, we are ALL sinners (including Mary).

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our
righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our
iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away. (Including Mary)

Isaiah 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every
one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us
all.

All 3 of the verses above speak of ALL of us (including Mary). We are
all sinners. Mary also needed a savior because she knew she also was a
sinner. The Bible makes it clear that we are ALL sinners.

Abraham, Moses, David (a man after God's own heart), All of the

diciples, apostles, Mary, etc… WE ARE ALL SINNERS! (for ALL have
sinned)

Yes!  what a great example Mary was!  She was blessed.  After all, she

gave birth to the ONLY sinless person Jesus Christ the King! God chose
here as the vessle to do this.

Jesus is the only man without sin - Heb 4:15 - For we do not have a High
Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points
tempted as we are, yet without sin.

But Mary was a human.  No more than that. She was born into sin like

all of us. That is specifically why Jesus Christ was put on the
cross! Colossians 2: 13, 14 - 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses
and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with
Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the
handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to
us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

When Jesus Christ Christ said “It is finished” did you know that the phrase “it is finished” was actually an expression used in Rome in the time of Christ when a debt had been paid in full. (kittel, vol. VIII, pp. 57,60). When Jesus shouted this just before He died, He was indicating that He had made a perfect, complete and final payment for sin. Jesus has torn down the barrier between God and man by paying for our sins through His own death on the cross. Colossians 2: 13, 14 - 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. There are no “works” that we can do to please God. Ephesians 2:8,9 - 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

all we have to do is believe on the finished work of Jesus Christ to be saved. Mary believed also as it states in Luke 1:45

 

[teresas1979]

Don’t let Jesus hear you say that about His mother ! He would wash your mouth out with soap, or something far worse.

He doesn’t believe she is His mother. He doesn’t believe that “your Mary” and the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ are the same person. “His Mary” is the one he has read about from the Bible as a very humble Jewish lady willing only to serve God. For him, she would not want to be the “Queen of Heaven” which I understand is known as a pagan Goddess outside of Christianity (please correct me if Im wrong here).

There are those who believe the Marian apparitions to be false as Mary often appears as a beautiful lady wearing beautiful, rich clothes asking for prayers to herself and her immaculate heart. Mary in the Bible would surely have worn very poor clothes and always pointed to her Son, not herself.

Personally, I lie somewhere between the two thinkings. I believe that some of the things apparition Mary’s are reported to have said conflict with Mary as the handmaiden of the Lord. I doubt she would dress beautifully as I think this would make people less likely to believe it is really her.

However I do agree with honour to Mary as the Mother of Our Saviour and to call her a Catholic Goddess (whether you mean it or not) would certainly be displeasing to Jesus. But if you also believe OSAS then you do not care

 

[nettro]

teresas1979:

There are those who believe the Marian apparitions to be false as Mary often appears as a beautiful lady wearing beautiful, rich clothes asking for prayers to herself and her immaculate heart. Mary in the Bible would surely have worn very poor clothes and always pointed to her Son, not herself.

Personally, I lie somewhere between the two thinkings. I believe that some of the things apparition Mary’s are reported to have said conflict with Mary as the handmaiden of the Lord. I doubt she would dress beautifully as I think this would make people less likely to believe it is really her.

I firmly believe that the apparitions that people see could be of the devil and his demons.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Zippy:

You skirted the actual question…let me restate it so you can address it directly.

Where in the scriptures does it say that you should pray to Mary or any other “saints”?

Hey Zippy, I guess you could also ask yourself where in the bible does it say not to pray to the saints.

Where in the bible does it mention Scripture only? It does however say that not everything jesus said or did was in the bible.

We have seen Jesus himself talk to Moses and Elijah who were not alive in this world! Not to mention the saints taking the prays of the people on Earth to God himself. Wow what an honor that would be huh!

Nope your right it does not say anything directly about praying to saints but if you can not see the truth for what it is, I really do feel sorry for you.

:tiphat:

 

[Lillith]

“Mary Queen of the Universe” catholics worship her just like the pagans worshipped their “Queen of the Universe”, the goddess that the catholic church modeled Mary after.

Mary is just a catholic goddess that catholics worship.

Zippy, I know you have your hands full and all but please…take them off the keyboard, go get your Bible, and I’ll explain to you where you can find the passages, and how Mary is the queen of Heaven (not the universe, silly) Read it all please, I’ll paraphrase as it is much to type!

Revelations chapter 12 THE WOMAN AND THE DRAGON

1…a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2. Because she was with child, she wailed aloud in pain as she laboured to give birth…(a dragon came it was uuuugly)…4…Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, ready to devour her child when it should be born. 5. SHE GAVE BIRTH TO A SON-A BOY DESTINED TO SHEPARD ALL THE NATIONS WITH AN IRON ROD.

It goes on to say her child was caught up to God and to his throne…a special place was prepared for the woman by her God…

Who is That Son…Jesus of course. Who is that Woman…his mother of course…notice her crown? If Jesus is the king in Heaven…Of course Mary is the Queen Mother…Not the wife of the King because kings could have more than one wife…it was always the mommy of the king…

I for one am not ashamed of Mary’s title…Queen of Heaven

 

[MaggieOH]

Lillith:

Zippy, I know you have your hands full and all but please…take them off the keyboard, go get your Bible, and I’ll explain to you where you can find the passages, and how Mary is the queen of Heaven (not the universe, silly) Read it all please, I’ll paraphrase as it is much to type!

Revelations chapter 12 THE WOMAN AND THE DRAGON

1…a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2. Because she was with child, she wailed aloud in pain as she laboured to give birth…(a dragon came it was uuuugly)…4…Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, ready to devour her child when it should be born. 5. SHE GAVE BIRTH TO A SON-A BOY DESTINED TO SHEPARD ALL THE NATIONS WITH AN IRON ROD.

It goes on to say her child was caught up to God and to his throne…a special place was prepared for the woman by her God…

Who is That Son…Jesus of course. Who is that Woman…his mother of course…notice her crown? If Jesus is the king in Heaven…Of course Mary is the Queen Mother…Not the wife of the King because kings could have more than one wife…it was always the mommy of the king…

I for one am not ashamed of Mary’s title…Queen of Heaven

Hi Lilith,
just to be sure you should also include the verses just before this one, that is Rev 11:19. It mentions seeing the Ark of the covenant. I am pretty certain that John the Evangelist did not see a wooden box in the heavens

MaggieOH

 

[reen12]

Dear Lillith,

Thanks for your kind words on my shrine making.

I got the idea in a craft store one day, while I was
looking at unpainted doll house furniture. I
realized that if I took off the doors and removed the
inner shelf, it would create a very nice shrine.
I fashioned another piece of wood to glue on top,
to make it more decorative.

The store also had a kind of shed-shaped piece
of doll house furniture. I just removed the inner
shelf, left the doors on, and used a smaller
statue. Adding medals, flowers and baby’s
breath lifts the heart, I think.

Every best wish,
reen12

 

[TNT]

Zippy:

Not even close to the same thing. We don’t pray to Lincoln, or believe that Lincoln holds a key that we can’t hold on our own.

We also don’t focus a huge percentage of our time “honoring” Lincoln. Catholics pray to Mary more than they pray to God…that’s worshipping.

"HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope" only the blind will not see this as worship, christians view Christ as their hope.

Here is the Hail Holy Queen, properly interpreted. Just so you know:
Mother of MERCY (ie Mother of Christ)
Now, we do not need to repeat “Mother of” as Catholics we understand. Just so you will understand it is this:
Mother of Mercy
(Mother of ) our life
(Mother of) our sweetness.
(Mother of) our Hope

Christ is our Mercy, our Life , our Sweetness, our Hope.
Or I could have said:
Christ is our Mercy
(Christ is) our Life
(Christ is) our Sweetness
(Christ is) our Hope

This prayer is not an apologetic to unbelievers. It was meant for Catholics who already know (Mother of) is implied.

Now, requests and questions for you, ZIPPIE:

1. Request:
   Give us your best concise definition of “WORSHIP”
   Give us your best concise definition of “ADORE”
   Give us your best concise definition of “GOD”.
2. Question:
   How does “Mary as goddess” fit your definition as a GOD.
   These I seek so that the WORDS we use have the same meaning.
   How does “worship Mary” by Catholics fit your defintion or “WORSHIP”?
   How does “worship Mary” by Catholics fit your defintion or “ADORE”?

 

[CARose]

I’ll try to address several points raised above, but first, Reen, please post a picture of your shrines here, I’d love to see them. Perhaps they’ll inspire something and you’ll learn of dozens of us making our own. It’d be great to do before May comes along!

Netro - you have a new user ID, so I suspect you’re someone who was previously suspended or banned. Forgive me if I’m wrong. I’ll only go so far as to point out one of the errors in your understanding of scripture and that has to do with Romans 3:23. Romans is a difficult book to interpret and I encourage anyone interested to listen to Scott Hahn’s Romanism in Romans where he helps to put it into perspective. This particular passage is written using the collective use of the term “all”, as in all, the Jews, the Romans, the remaining Gentiles, all have sinned, not the individual “all” (e.g. jane and joan and sally and everyone ever living). If you extend it to mean the second, you would be suggesting that all infants have sinned (not according to the Catholic definition of sin, which requires intent among other things). So, it has to mean something else, even if you don’t look at it in the context in which it was written.

I won’t go into the rest of you points, as they are thread hi-jacking continued. Post them elsewhere, send me a PM and I’ll and others will gladly go through them.

Regarding unapproved apparitions, they may or may not be the work of the devil. This is why the Church is so slow in making any claims regarding miracles. The devil is a consumate liar, blending truth and lie so as to pull in the unsuspecting.

Those apparitions which are approved amount to private revelation and need not be believed by the Faithful. However, belief that Mary is the Mother of God can be deduced from the Bible and Tradition, as handed down from the Apostles. She was assumed into heaven, “body and soul, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” (CCC 966) This we are required to believe. We are not required (correct me if I’m wrong) to pray to her, beyond that which may be included in the liturgy in reference to her (I think a couple of the Eucharistic prayers include her name and Saturday Mass can be said in her honor). But we must believe that it is appropriate for those who desire to show her honor to do so.

Regarding Mary’s role as queen mother, in addition to this being shown in Revelations, the old testament is replete with examples of the Mother of the King being raised to the position of Queen Mother and she is the one who hears the petitions of the commoners. Since I am most definitely a mere commoner, I take my petitions on many occations to “Mom” whom I know loves me as only a mother can love (Yes, Christ can love me more, He’s God, but she has a special place in my heart, heck, she’s fully human, so she understands temptation, even if she was blessed to not have concupisence).

I’ve come to have a better relationship with my earthly mother as a result of my growing love for Mary. Thanks mom. I’ve come to have an unbelievable love for Christ through Mary. Thanks mom, you always have, like any good Jewish mom, wanted everyone to know and love you son. And I know you’d like all your children to stop fighting.

Luv ya all,

CARose

 

[TNT]

Zippy:

Where in the scriptures does it say to pray to her, or any of the “saints”?

I will show you just as soon as YOU SHOW ME where Hebrews MUST be inserted and treated as Scripture in your “bible”.
Ready? GO.
While you’re at it, show me in your “bible” where it says there are to be EXACTLY 27 NT books, and NOT 25, 26, or 28.
Ready? GO.
STAY WITH THE BOOKS, NOT ANY EXTRA-BIBLE STUFF (traditions of men).
This is your chance to REALLY shed light in a positve vs negative declaration.
If any prot. wants to join in the answers, you are welcome.
Just be concise, no nebuli.

 

[CARose]

Oh, and a couple of other things,

Regarding the tabernacle: have you ever looked at the Old Testament description of the journey of the Tabernacle to Jerusalem, with David dancing in front of it? Compare that journey with the visit Mary made to her cousin Elizabeth before Christ was born, after the annunciation. The town that Elizabeth lives in is the same as the place where the tabernacle stayed for 3 months. (You’ll need to know your historical places to get this, reading scripture alone won’t get it for you). And David danced before the tabernacle which is a great foreshadowing of John the Baptist dancing before the Lord while each were still in their mother’s wombs. That’s the thing about scripture, the more you know, the better it gets! And the more you know, the more you realize how incredibly consistent the whole picture is!

TNT, thanks for your great breakdown of the Hail Holy Queen. I’ve never seen it presented that way, and yet it makes total sense!! It completely clarifies for me a mystery in the words that I couldn’t quite explain and yet it reflects my belief in Mary that I have intended when saying the words! Thanks!

Zippy, Netro & others who don’t believe that we know the difference in what is due to God and what is due to Mary… I think TNT hit the nail on the head with his (her ?) breakdown of the Hail Holy Queen, it depends on what you mean when you address Mary and the Saints. You’re trying to tell us we mean one thing, when we try to clarify to you that we mean something else. Hmm, seems to me we’d know our own intent better than others who look in from the outside. But that aside, perhaps I can help by sharing something I heard yesterday. In Latin and Greek there are a number of different words used for Worship, I’m not an expert here, but I think they were Laudia (reserved for God), Hyperdulia (used for Mary) and dulia (for the Saints). I may have one or all of the terms wrong, as I’m quoting from memory a language I don’t speak (and I’m over 40, so my memory isn’t all that great either). But the important point is this. The English language (and other Germanic Languages) doesn’t make much distinction between these various words for worship. Hence the confusion when we use the word, while understanding the differentiation.

All Glory and Honor go to God, from whom all things come. And yet we don’t get upset that the 10 commandments tell us to Honor thy Mother and Father. We are to call no man Father, and we are told to honor our Father. It’s all a matter of putting things into context. So many Catholics, by simply being raised within the Bosom of the Church Christ gave us, take certain things for granted, and it’s hard for us to explain what we know in our gut and haven’t bothered to examine more closely.

Thank you for giving us the opportunity to get to know our own faith more fully as we examine why we believe what we believe.

The Catholic Church is so cool. The deeper you dig, the richer it gets! It’s not simply beautiful on the surface. It’s beautiful at each level of intimacy you choose to explore, for Christ is Infinite Love and in His Justice and Mercy He gave us an Authoritative Teacher to guide us through all ages.

CARose