Do Catholics really want to be aligned with MAGA?

[gracepoole]

Kind of thought my point was obvious. Claiming that anyone we don’t know personally “doesn’t have a racist bone” in their body is off base.

 

[Irishmom2]

TrumpTrain:

As for MAGA, there is nothing wrong with wanting to Make America Great Again. The only sad thing is that vile hateful people have tried to brand it as racist when it is nothing of the sort.

Or perhaps it’s the vile hateful racists who have adopted the slogan – and president – for their own purposes.

Who exactly are the vile hateful racists you are referring to?

 

[Irishmom2]

Kind of thought my point was obvious. Claiming that anyone we don’t know personally “doesn’t have a racist bone” in their body is off base.

Isn’t claiming someone we don’t know personally as being a racist as equally off base?

 

[gracepoole]

Surely you haven’t forgotten Richard Spencer and his ilk.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

Kind of thought my point was obvious. Claiming that anyone we don’t know personally “doesn’t have a racist bone” in their body is off base.

Isn’t claiming someone we don’t know personally as being a racist as equally off base?

“None of us can really know that.” I didn’t claim anyone is a racist or not. I simply pointed out that it’s beyond what any of us can know with certainty about Trump.

 

[Victoria33]

Pretty sure that was @HOMM’s point. It IS complicated.

Rome has spoken. I’m a Catholic, that’s good enough for me. If the Holy Father wishes Catholics to be against the death penalty, that’s fine too. As said earlier, probably only 24 persons or fewer a year face execution in the US and on top of that, appeals often make it as long as 16 years or longer after the initial act.

Rome has spoken. I don’t find this really debatable.

Pope Francis, Pope John Paul II have all made their views on this topic very well known.

What is complicated would be to delve into all of the documentation but I take their word for it.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

Pretty sure that was @HOMM’s point. It IS complicated.

Rome has spoken. I’m a Catholic, that’s good enough for me. If the Holy Father wishes Catholics to be against the death penalty, that’s fine too. As said earlier, probably only 24 persons or fewer a year face execution in the US and on top of that, appeals often make it as long as 16 years or longer after the initial act.

Rome has spoken. I don’t find this really debatable.

Pope Francis, Pope John Paul II have all made their views on this topic very well known.

What is complicated would be to delve into all of the documentation but I take their word for it.

Again: the number put to death is not relevant when determining whether the deaths are moral or not.

The papal quotes you’ve shared do not in any way demonstrate that only abortion and euthanasia should be considered non-negotiables.

Finally, it’s wise to look at all a pope like JPII had to say rather than selectively parceling out content.

“A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.”

https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-.../documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_27011999_stlouis.html

 

[Victoria33]

Again: the number put to death is not relevant when determining whether the deaths are moral or not.

The papal quotes you’ve shared do not in any way demonstrate that only abortion and euthanasia should be considered non-negotiables.

Finally, it’s wise to look at all a pope like JPII had to say rather than selectively parceling out content.

The number of deaths are relevant, abortion is a great evil in our country.

Excuse me, nobody said that euthanasia and abortion are the only items considered non-negotiables, but the Church time and time again, mentions this and has since that decision in 1973 and did prior as well.

Please do not accuse me of being selective in what I am posting. Usually, people post something that is on topic, not that they have ulterior motives in what they are posting. This is rather insulting.

As long as I’m in this forum, I will continue to emphasize how the Catholic Church time and again, stands against abortion. For all the flak Pope Francis takes, he has been very emphatic in this as well.

He talks of global warming and so on, nobody is cherry picking the subject.

 

[gracepoole]

Where did I claim that the Church is not against abortion?

 

[Irishmom2]

Irishmom2:

gracepoole:

Kind of thought my point was obvious. Claiming that anyone we don’t know personally “doesn’t have a racist bone” in their body is off base.

Isn’t claiming someone we don’t know personally as being a racist as equally off base?

“None of us can really know that.” I didn’t claim anyone is a racist or not. I simply pointed out that it’s beyond what any of us can know for certainty about Trump.

You implied he was by saying that we dont know him personally to know that he is not.

 

[gracepoole]

Respectfully, you don’t know that I’m not a racist. In charity, it’s likely best to assume I’m not and this should be our response to all with whom we’re not personally associated. But you can’t know with certainty. That’s factual. Nothing implied.

 

[Victoria33]

Where did I claim that the Church is not against abortion?

I don’t believe you claimed that. I did not say anything like that.

Churches have pro-life rosaries, Churches join in the March for Life, apparently, that’s what those kids were doing in DC. I think I said I would stand up for the clear emphasis the Roman Catholic Church and a number of Popes have. I understand Pope Paul VI actually started addressing these in one of the documents he wrote, an encyclicaL? So, all I am saying is I will address the very prominent pro-life stance of the Church. You can’t miss it on Catholic Radio, some churches have pro-life memorials even. EWTN carried out live broadcasting of the march for life and that was about 9 hours long, then, they repeated that coverage that evening.

So, nobody claimed anyone didn’t say the Church wasn’t against abortion but with being accusatory, I don’t think that message should in anyway be diluted. “Well, the Church is against the Death Penalty and torture too” or words like this.

Only because I’m getting the message that I’ve posted a lot in this discussion, this will be my last post for the time being on this subject.

Add On: Apparently, Catholic doctrine does mention though, the wrong of killing the totally innocent, so in that way, selective quotes or not, it would tend to be different than the death penalty which sentences to death guilty persons unless, of course, the person to be executed is innocent. This is why Illinois apparently does not execute anymore, they were afraid of executing innocent people.

I was keeping up with a case in Oklahoma, that hotel killing. I don’t remember if they executed the man however, even Susan Sarandon came out to speak up for the inmate. Anyone remember this? I know I can find documentation though because there is a website that just specializes in death penalty data. Anyone can look it up.

You even have pro-life Rosaries (the actual item) besides pro-life rosaries that one recites. So, yes, acting as if there is a moral equivalence with the DP seems in error to me.

 

[Le_Crouton]

What’s wrong with wanting to make America great again?

 

[Victoria33]

Again, Church doctrine clearly does state how abortion kills the innocent, in that it is just not the same thing as the death penalty though, the DP probably has erred in that manner too and innocent persons surely, have been killed.

God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being."56

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

For whatever, I’m contributing this not to be selective in reading and in citing data. The Church is clear on this.

 

[pnewton]

I were to stick just to the title, I would say it is problematic as a slogan first. What is great? The biggest military? The richest? The happiest people? The longest life span?

Based on his campaign, I do not agree with the president’s definition of what is great. Wealth is not the measure of a man, or a country. Military is not a measure of greatness. Prestige is not greatness. While abortion is a mortal sin, Catholics ought not align with any mortal sin, including pride and greed. So that might be one problem.

Trump might have given a clue to his vision when he remarked when he remarked he is a nationalist. Nationalism, that is “American First,” is contrary to Catholic teaching, and most Christian teaching, as it contrary to the Golden Rule, which requires us to put the needs of others on equal footing with our own.

While it is not strictly a Catholic issue, I am usually put off by statements like this Trump slogan, and Michelle Obama’s phrasing of the same sentiment.

What we’ve learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback. And let me tell you something — for the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country.

She was castigated for that by the same people the have flocked to MAGA. What both of these people miss is that patriotism is not just about your political image of the country, which is only worth of being called great when it is in your image.

 

[pnewton]

How about having a low opinion of one’s own country to start with.

 

[twf]

David Duke and his ilk who have openly and proudly supported Trump and MAGA?
No that’s not a majority of Trump supporters…but that’s obviously the sorts of people the poster was referring to.

 

[Victoria33]

Based on his campaign, I do not agree with the president’s definition of what is great. Wealth is not the measure of a man, or a country. Military is not a measure of greatness. Prestige is not greatness. While abortion is a mortal sin, Catholics ought not align with any mortal sin, including pride and greed. So that might be one problem.

I don’t see that, didn’t hear any of this. You are trying to force a definition because obviously, you don’t care for him but I don’t see that. Again, Rome has spoken, abortion is singled out as an intrinsic evil, so none of us are experts or at least, I’m not but all should be asware if comparing abortion to gluttony is a great injustice.

As far as “America First”, leaders have a responsibility for their own citizens. Right? Even the Bible tells us to obey our leaders and that is of course, within reason. I find this criticism again, failing and it is not contrary to Catholic teaching in my mind.

 

[Victoria33]

David Duke and his ilk who have openly and proudly supported Trump and MAGA?
No that’s not a majority of Trump supporters…but that’s obviously the sorts of people the poster was referring to.

So, we would pass judgement on the Democrat party as being anti-semitic and bigotted as well because of the comments or actions of those two lady congresswomen and others? I don’t think so. Again, this is just trying to find something wrong with Trump and supporters. I could easily make a blanket statement, “it’s not all Democrats but some”.

 

[Le_Crouton]

I think the slogan is indicative that we don’t have a low opinion of our country. We know america can be better because it once was

That’s like saying a mom has a low opinion of her child when she tells him to do better at school or something