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MamasBoy33
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Did you just hear Trumps talk right now. That’s amazing, that is why I SUPPORT him.
Bingo bango
Bingo bango
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godisgood77
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What was the insult? If you’re referring to me calling you ‘word-boy’, then I apologize. Please know my intention was only to playfully take a jab at your continued focus on the practical application of the word admonish. The fact you seem to be focusing on a very tactical piece of the discussion and not the meat by parsing out ad nauseum the definition is something I was attempting to have fun with.Let’s do “consider Catholic teaching,” but before we “shift gears.” Insulting Catholics on forums is, I wouldn’t think, a way of demonstrating a consideration for Catholic teaching. Unless you also want to make insult out to be a synonym of admonish?
So, to move along, if you’re open to it…… let’s focus on the quote you offer… and we’ll see if this gets us past this obstacle to focusing on whether or not a Catholic can support Trump in good conscience…
Done.… I have, and I’m sure many others have, tried to communicate with the president… Email, letter, twitter, etc have all be tried multiple times for months to no avail… not even a response. If you must know, I have also tried to work through my duly elected representatives… no response there.
Next, is take brothers along with… that’s actually the point of this thread… to discuss whether not a broader group should be formed to consolidate voices…as we are obviously more likely to be heard as a group. Good there?
I think the Church is well ahead of us on this in that the Pope, the USCCB, many priests and Bishops have called out the problems the Church has with Mr Trump’s policies not him as a person… So following the Church isn’t an issue.
So now I’m admitting that I’ve used the word admonish in a way that doesn’t fit with it’s strict definition… mea culpa.
Yes, those two words are synonymous… constructive criticism is important to any leader and is in fact Catholic moral obligation… See Pope Francis’ comments, Abp Chaput, the USCCB, etc… there is quite a body of evidence.
With all of that said… I hope we can now move on to why you are defending his positions and feel as a Catholic you are justified from a moral standpoint
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anon65111186
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I’m sure you’ve heard the charge against Trump that he is generally “crazy”. I did some research recently and the American Psychological Association says real physiologists should not comment on political candidates without examining them first. They said it would be immoral,unprofessional and irresponsible.
Despite the warning, some psychologists did however give their opinion based on Trump’s speeches and other material. The best they could come up with was he was close to Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which isn’t technically crazy and highly treatable with therapy.
If he did have it, all he would need is some therapy and he is cured. Most people don’t care though they just see him as a threat, not as a human being. If someone is suffering with a disorder, we pray for them and try to help them no?
The vitriol in today’s politics is really inhumane.
I voted for him, and although he does seem to have some quirks, in general he is doing a lot of good things for the American people and praised be to God not forwarding an abortion or gay-marriage agenda.
Despite the warning, some psychologists did however give their opinion based on Trump’s speeches and other material. The best they could come up with was he was close to Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which isn’t technically crazy and highly treatable with therapy.
If he did have it, all he would need is some therapy and he is cured. Most people don’t care though they just see him as a threat, not as a human being. If someone is suffering with a disorder, we pray for them and try to help them no?
The vitriol in today’s politics is really inhumane.
I voted for him, and although he does seem to have some quirks, in general he is doing a lot of good things for the American people and praised be to God not forwarding an abortion or gay-marriage agenda.
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godisgood77
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This is essentially true… with exception of the expected and easy move on the Mexico City policy - like his Republican predecessor - he deserves some credit for this move, but is does not live up to the lofty rhetoric that he used on the subject nor should it convince anyone that he is prolife.
Other than that, here is not a body of evidence that puts Mr Trump in the Prolife camp… in fact the opposite he is on record being a pro-choice democrat. One can be hopeful that by his actions, he changes that, but it certainly hasn’t happened.
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ProVobis
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If you knew the Trump supporters I know, you wouldn’t say that. I know of several who have undergone abortions themselves. So I guess they voted for him for other reasons.
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StephenButler
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If I interact with a person, and there is a 249 out of 250 chance that this person has done nothing wrong and will do nothing wrong, then I will behave as if the person is innocent. That is the moral choice.
“In a statement read by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in September 2009, the Holy See stated, “We know now that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases”
If I interact with a Catholic Priest, rather than assuming he is a child abuser, keeping my children away from him, and refusing to let him enter my house, I will understand that there is a 95-99% chance that he has done nothing wrong and never will.
When I interact with the police, rather than assuming he is one of the bad apples who will abuse his power and be a danger to me, I will understand that it is overwhelmingly likely that he is a public servant who is there to do his job.
When I interact with a Muslim, whether that is on the street, in my home, or at an airport, I will remember that there greater than a 99.999% chance that he has done nothing wrong and never will. I will not refuse to permit him to walk on the streets with me, do business with me, or visit family members that live in this country.
It is not moral to persecute the many because I fear a small few who might be among them.
It’s a simple choice. I can choose to bow to my fear, mistreat and drive away an enormous number of innocent people, or I can make the selfless choice and treat my Muslim neighbor with the same decency he would offer me.
Moreover, when being a good neighbor, that is a responsibility that has nothing to do with national borders. I have the same moral obligation to others regardless of what the piece of dirt they were born on is called.
“In a statement read by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in September 2009, the Holy See stated, “We know now that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases”
If I interact with a Catholic Priest, rather than assuming he is a child abuser, keeping my children away from him, and refusing to let him enter my house, I will understand that there is a 95-99% chance that he has done nothing wrong and never will.
When I interact with the police, rather than assuming he is one of the bad apples who will abuse his power and be a danger to me, I will understand that it is overwhelmingly likely that he is a public servant who is there to do his job.
When I interact with a Muslim, whether that is on the street, in my home, or at an airport, I will remember that there greater than a 99.999% chance that he has done nothing wrong and never will. I will not refuse to permit him to walk on the streets with me, do business with me, or visit family members that live in this country.
It is not moral to persecute the many because I fear a small few who might be among them.
It’s a simple choice. I can choose to bow to my fear, mistreat and drive away an enormous number of innocent people, or I can make the selfless choice and treat my Muslim neighbor with the same decency he would offer me.
Moreover, when being a good neighbor, that is a responsibility that has nothing to do with national borders. I have the same moral obligation to others regardless of what the piece of dirt they were born on is called.
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PetraG
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He has a lot of irons in the fire when it comes to appeasing his base. No, they are not all anti-abortion and he doesn’t believe that getting abortion right is going to make him the greatest president of all time. On that front, I think he’s looking at the nation bringing in buckets of money. That’s the benchmark that seems to impress him the most.
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MonteRCMS
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Instead of mentioning CUTS, tell us the actual dollars in those programs.
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ProVobis
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Seems like a convoluted argument to ask why would he want therapy if his supporters like him just as he is. Those who have known him for 30 years or more probably aren’t going to change their minds on him, therapy or not. They will defend his slurs and subtle errors in his rhetoric as best as possible, even if it means attacking all his opponents.
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anon65111186
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I did not argue why he wanted therapy or not, you must have not read what I wrote, because I don’t see how you got that.
If he did have narcissistic disorder, the proper thing would for him to get therapy. Whether he would agree to it or not is up to him. It would certainly help if he did have it.
Likewise, it does not excuse any bad behavior on his part.
My point is if you are a human and a Catholic, you want what is best for others, you want the good for others. That is called charity. Even if they are your enemy, you pray for them and love them.
If he did have a disorder, you should pray for his healing, pray that he gets therapy.
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ProVobis
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Actual dollars?
SS Benefits $941 billion per year
Military $773 billion per year
Medicare $592 billion per year
Medicaid $385 billion per year
Interest payments $266 billion per year, now estimated to be about $800-900 billion in ten years, depending on how high interest rates rise because of the “stronger” economy.
Hope you’re in the camp to collect interest payments.
SS Benefits $941 billion per year
Military $773 billion per year
Medicare $592 billion per year
Medicaid $385 billion per year
Interest payments $266 billion per year, now estimated to be about $800-900 billion in ten years, depending on how high interest rates rise because of the “stronger” economy.
Hope you’re in the camp to collect interest payments.
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ProVobis
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Yes and for many others who need it.
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PetraG
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When has he ever done any real advocacy against abortion before becoming a candidate? Has he been a supporter of Right to Life? When? Has he made this an issue when he used his wealth to influence politics over the many decades he has been ? When?Yeah, well, so was the claim that Trump has “no track record” with regard to opposition of abortion. And someone did claim that. Funny, I didn’t see you post anything to correct THAT “false claim, a straw man.” We seem to be very selective with regard to pointing out straw men, no?
Makes one begin to question whether the virtue of honesty is being taken seriously in this thread.
Or do you agree that Trump has “no track record” in that regard? Do I also need to go on another long “diatribe” regarding the meaning of track record?
This is what he said about political donations in the debates:
““I was a businessman. I give to everybody. When they call, I give. And you know what? When I need something from them, two years later, three years later, I call them, and they are there for me.”
He said that was a broken system, but when did he ever use his wealth on that broken system to prevent abortions? When? That’s not a track record?
If that isn’t a track record of failing to use his influence to do THING ONE to prevent any abortions, then what track record does he have? He has one year. Before that, he either didn’t care or he publicly said he was pro-choice. If you don’t believe it, use a search engine, put in Trump and “pro-choice” and look for videos. You’ll hear it coming out of his own mouth. He has said he is pro-abortion, he has said he is pro-life with exceptions, he has said women who have abortions should be punished by the law, he has been all over the map during his long time of influencing politicis. The evidence is that the issue wasn’t a priority until he sought election in a party that put a priority on it.
Having said that, he hasn’t ignored the issue since taking office. That’s his track record as an office-holder. I don’t know that I’d call his handling of the issue the most even-handed in the world–you do have to make it clear that pregnant women are going to be fully and practically supported in the choice to bring a child into the world or you are committing the “be warm and well-fed” error that St. James warned about–but he’s not ignoring it or going back on his position.
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anon65111186
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I’m not saying he has it though, I don’t think he does, and I don’t think anyone besides someone who examined him does.
You should pray for his holiness, that you may see him in heaven. If you have other enemies, by all means pray for them.
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MonteRCMS
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Here is the list of alleged cuts; please comment on the actual program dollars:
Yeah, and Hitler built great roads. You know what else Trump is trying to do?
Cut $193 million from TRIO and GEAR UP, which provide academic counseling to underprivileged children and veterans.
Cut $3.9 billion from the Pell Grant program, which helps underprivileged undergrads pay for college.
Cut $616 billion from Medicaid and CHIP (Children’s Health Insurance Program), on top of the $800 million cut that the AHCA makes to Medicaid.
Cut $948 million from the HOME Investment Partnerships Program, the biggest federal grant that subsidizes affordable housing.
So pro-life. So pro-America.
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HarryStotle
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Let’s “turn this around.” Would you assume to yourself the absolute right to visit or move to another country without proper identification and then a further right to possibly live off the generosity of the people of that country for a year or more merely because you desire a better life for yourself? Would you not understand it if the citizens of that receiving country would be just a little wary about who you are and require some assurance of your good nature? I mean if there is a 1 in 250 chance that you will bring some form of terrorism to their neighborhoods, why wouldn’t they have a right to choose beneficiaries of their generosity from countries that can provide that kind of assurance? I mean if their long term and reasonable plan is to sustain their good and generous society and not jeopardize the possibility of sustaining that generosity beyond the next few years? If they don’t give a crap about their own society then letting anyone in – vetting be damned – would make perfect sense because they could give two hoots about sustaining it.
I think you would be a fool to invite people into your home if there was a 1 in 250 chance that they would terrorize your family for the long term.
The example of pedophile priests just doesn’t apply here because you have some level of trust that the Church is doing something to vet priests. If it wasn’t doing a thing, then you would be far more wary about inviting a priest into your home. Same applies to Trump’s travel ban. Countries that cannot provide any reliable vetting are on the ban until they can. Countries not on the ban have provided some level of assurance (like the Church now does) that their vetting is effective, even though the 1 in 250 terrorist ratio may also apply to their population. What you are missing is that this is a move to improve the vetting efficacies in those countries that are not doing their part, it puts the onus on them where it ought to be.
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anon65111186
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Right.
The biggest pro-life decision was appointing Judge Gorsuch. He appointed four pro-life judges to the U.S. Court of Appeals; two confirmed district court judges; 54 more nominees.
He signed a bill that permits states to defund Planned Parenthood of family planning funds passed in Congress. Because this was passed using the Congressional Review Act, future Administrations cannot enact a similar rule to Obama’s.
He also stopped tax dollars that were funding abortion overseas.
Last but not least he defunded the Pro-Abortion UNFPA.
Pretty good track record for 11 months.
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HarryStotle
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You cannot forge a track record based upon an argument from silence or that there is no evidence. You don’t know that he hadn’t done anything and you don’t know that he had. Jesus said, “Let not your right hand know what your left is doing,” or something to that effect. Maybe Trump takes that injunction seriously and you wouldn’t know even if you were his right hand. Jesus also said that the judgements you mete out are the judgements you will be held to. Be careful how you judge others.
People do change. Perhaps what motivated him to run for president was precisely that change of heart. Since being elected he hasn’t done anything to foster abortions and he has done a number of things to show he is morally against them. That is the beginning of a track record. I am willing to give him a chance.
Edit: Cf. @anon65111186’s post before this one.
I know from my track record, that if God judges me as you are judging Trump’s track record, my future is sealed. Hope would be scoured of all meaning.
I hope you don’t work in the field of criminal rehabilitation. Not exactly “hope for the hopeless” are you?
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PaulinVA
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Any Republican elected could have gotten a Supreme and the District Court judges through. It’s a Republican Senate.
You forgot:
The destabilization of the world
Pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord
Escalating the North Korea problem with little schoolboy bully antics
alienating foreign leaders
Pouring gasoline on the palestinian problem
Obstructing justice
Indictment of his campaign manager
Undermining the free press
Undermining the FBI
Those last two are right out of the totalitarian playbook.
Yes, it’s been quite a year!
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PetraG
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Do I have evidence that he never used his influence to do a thing about abortion policy? If Mr. Donald Trump has never bragged about doing something he believes would impress someone, the chances are vastly high that he never did it. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Donald Trump subscribes to the don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing theory. All of the evidence is to the contrary. (I don’t even think he’s said so himself?)
Having said that, this is something for which to be thankful, since he said he was pro-choice when he was asked about it back in the 1990s. He spent a lot of money to give himself political influence, but he didn’t use it to influence in favor of the wrong-headed position he said he held back then.
It is our duty to judge whether or not the people we are being asked to support politically are what they say they are. Besides, how could anyone who is put off by rash judgment ever in a million years support Donald J Trump?
When it comes to politics, however, you are right: It does not matter what the intentions are or what the attitude was. It matter what someone is doing now. He is burning political capital to oppose the spread of abortion. One could argue he burns political capital like a drunk billionaire burns $100 bills and there would be some truth to it, but I don’t see how anyone argues that Donald J Trump has not been the equal of any President to hold the office when it comes to actually using his power and influence to avoid directly using government resources to support that extreme evil.
I will add that this was a matter that has caused me to look at the Republican party with considerable wariness. There have been candidates who talked more eloquently but did less. How one affects public perception is very important–affecting the decision itself would have the greatest effect on how many women opt to end the lives of their children before birth–but in the end actions matter. Avoiding any direct participation in procuring abortions matters very much.
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