Do Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God?

[ralphinal]

So what you are saying is that…
Well… Lets say I enter into the jungle and I find a group of half naked savages in there. They take me to the centre of their camp and show me a big oak. they say: "This is our god. There is no other god… We ask for rain and he gives rain…"etc. Now when you start interrogating them you find out that 300 years ago a caravan of Jews went through the forest. These Jews mentioned some names to the savages… the savages didn’t really understand much, but remembered the names and now they say: “yes-yes… also Adam and Abraham worshipped the one true god”. and then they bow down to the oak, sacrifice some children to it and pray to it for more rain.

Now the question is: Is that old oak tree the same god as that of the Christians and the Jews?
Know that if you say yes I find you no more illogical than when you say that Moslems worship the one true God.

See, its this simple. The son of filthy lies sent out a lying spirit around year 600 and that lying spirit posessed a man named Muhammed. Now you call his god the same as the Christian God… frankly I find that highly disturbing…

You read too much into my post. I never said that Muhammed is an authentic messenger of God. I never said that Islam is an acceptable alternative to Christianity. All that I said is the the Muslims worship the same God as we do. Their understanding of that God is flawed in major ways, hence the different message.

How about this. You find those savages, just the same. Now, they leaned about God from missionaries about 200 years ago, but none have been there since, save one. That one missionary was heretical. Because it sounded like some of what they already knew, they accepted it as fact. Is their religion heresy? Yes. No doubt. Is the god of their faith not God? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the heresy. Like it or not, Muslims claim they worship the God of Abraham. The Catholic Church agrees that there intention is to reach the God of Abraham.

 

[chosen_people]

Can a Dog understand the nature of a Human Being ?

So, you can’t understand the nature of God and the Trinity Concept

You pray to God of Abraham, and that’s great, Jewish do the same

But Jesus revealed more secrets about God that was hidden since prehistoric times

You are stuck in that time, whatsoever

\

Even if I accept your premise that all Jews are dogs you must accept that not all dogs are Jews. Take for example the St. Bernard:shrug:

 

[GraceDK]

Dear chosen people.

I have noticed that in the past when I ask you questions for you you refer me to some internet pages instead of offering an explanation your self. Needless to say I am here for a reason and that reason is dialog… not being put somehwere else to read a bunch of stuff that some stranger wrote.

Anyway… I hope you can answer this one just shortly: I listened to a very good discussion yesterday by two Jewish very respectable and well studied gentlemen… one was Dr Michael Brown who believes that Yeshua was the Messiah. The other was Rabbi Tovia Singer who believes the messiah is yet to come and it was not Yeshua… Both are quite famous as you know… maybe you have even met them.

Anyway, my question is this: Tovia was asked if he believes that Christians go to hell. He answered that if they don’t turn from what appears to him to be polytheism and idolatry (worshipping Jesus as God) then they will go to hell for eternity.

I thought: well okay… thats only logical in terms of his belief system… but as far as I recall you have said something else… or no? perhaps I was mistaken?
If Tovia is right… and all gentiles go to hell for worshipping Yeshua… well then that leaves me with another question… one that was not asked in the program: would it not be terribly selfish for Jewish people not to make missionary work among gentiles in order to save them from the hell they are clearly going towards?

I look forward to your reply.
Respectfully,
Grace
( The discussion:
youtube.com/watch?v=Q7pmAeQfXv8 )

Ps… the dog-symbol was actually used by Yeshua to describe non-Jews … the Jews were called the children…
But He did it with no ill intent… it was only an image

 

[chosen_people]

Dear chosen people.

I have noticed that in the past when I ask you questions for you you refer me to some internet pages instead of offering an explanation your self. Needless to say I am here for a reason and that reason is dialog… not being put somehwere else to read a bunch of stuff that some stranger wrote.

Anyway… I hope you can answer this one just shortly: I listened to a very good discussion yesterday by two Jewish very respectable and well studied gentlemen… one was Dr Michael Brown who believes that Yeshua was the Messiah. The other was Rabbi Tovia Singer who believes the messiah is yet to come and it was not Yeshua… Both are quite famous as you know… maybe you have even met them.

Anyway, my question is this: Tovia was asked if he believes that Christians go to hell. He answered that if they don’t turn from what appears to him to be polytheism and idolatry (worshipping Jesus as God) then they will go to hell for eternity.

I thought: well okay… thats only logical in terms of his belief system… but as far as I recall you have said something else… or no? perhaps I was mistaken?
If Tovia is right… and all gentiles go to hell for worshipping Yeshua… well then that leaves me with another question… one that was not asked in the program: would it not be terribly selfish for Jewish people not to make missionary work among gentiles in order to save them from the hell they are clearly going towards?

I look forward to your reply.
Respectfully,
Grace
( The discussion:
youtube.com/watch?v=Q7pmAeQfXv8 )

Ps… the dog-symbol was actually used by Yeshua to describe non-Jews … the Jews were called the children…
But He did it with no ill intent… it was only an image

Dear GraceDK

I hope you can understand that my available time does not always allow me to give a personal detailed answer. Also, by referring to an accepted website I avoid any claim of giving my personal opinion only. However, as luck would have it I have a few free minutes and you have specifically asked for my individual thoughts.

My reply would be that, with all due respect,I cannot agree with either of the positions.

The position that Yehoshua bar Yosef was the Messiah, is the antithesis of God’s covenant with the Jews. The Law, Torah, was rejected by Christianity. In other posts I described how this was a necessary outcome of the drive by Christianity to be universal, as it required the development of a religon that did not require literacy and was suited to all intellectual abilities. The ancient Egyptians, Persians, Greeks and Romans all had concepts of a god taking human form, coming to earth after being born to a human virgin mother, sacrificing himself for the benifit of mankind and being resurrected. The covenant of the Jews and the uniqueness of the Jews was that they were the first people to be able to concieve and understand not only the singualarity of God but to be able to percieve God without the crutch of human form. Christianity may have been a giant leap towards monotheism from Mithraism but in the end, from the Jewish perspective and the perspective of God’s covenant, it really doesn’t matter which statue of which human being you want to palce in your house of worship to kneel before. If you reject Torah and you accept that a human being was devine then you may be many things but you are not Jewish.

Nor can I accept the counter position that Roman Catholics are on their way to Hell for all eternity. Firstly, the concept of Hell in the way you mean does not exist in Judaism, the Jewish concept may best be understood as a limited purgatory. Secondly, it’s actually easier for the gentile to get to the world to come as they have only to adhere to the seven Noahide commandments. As to the recurring question as to whether Christianity may be viewed as idolatry (this is apparently the view of Singer) it has always been my position that in matters of faith a subjective rather then an objective test should apply - in other words I cannot accept the position that Christians are “idolotrous polytheists” since from their perspective they are monotheists.

Lastly, unfortunately I understood only too well the reference by the poster of the Jews being like dogs, I chose to answer humorously but I would ask to leave the matter there.

 

[Sam_777]

The Law, Torah, was rejected by Christianity.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but how come they rejected Torah, and at the same time they included the five books of the Torah in the Bible?

 

[GraceDK]

Dear GraceDK

I hope you can understand that my available time does not always allow me to give a personal detailed answer. Also, by referring to an accepted website I avoid any claim of giving my personal opinion only. However, as luck would have it I have a few free minutes and you have specifically asked for my individual thoughts.

My reply would be that, with all due respect,I cannot agree with either of the positions.

The position that Yehoshua bar Yosef was the Messiah, is the antithesis of God’s covenant with the Jews. The Law, Torah, was rejected by Christianity. In other posts I described how this was a necessary outcome of the drive by Christianity to be universal, as it required the development of a religon that did not require literacy and was suited to all intellectual abilities. The ancient Egyptians, Persians, Greeks and Romans all had concepts of a god taking human form, coming to earth after being born to a human virgin mother, sacrificing himself for the benifit of mankind and being resurrected. The covenant of the Jews and the uniqueness of the Jews was that they were the first people to be able to concieve and understand not only the singualarity of God but to be able to percieve God without the crutch of human form. Christianity may have been a giant leap towards monotheism from Mithraism but in the end, from the Jewish perspective and the perspective of God’s covenant, it really doesn’t matter which statue of which human being you want to palce in your house of worship to kneel before. If you reject Torah and you accept that a human being was devine then you may be many things but you are not Jewish.

Nor can I accept the counter position that Roman Catholics are on their way to Hell for all eternity. Firstly, the concept of Hell in the way you mean does not exist in Judaism, the Jewish concept may best be understood as a limited purgatory. Secondly, it’s actually easier for the gentile to get to the world to come as they have only to adhere to the seven Noahide commandments. As to the recurring question as to whether Christianity may be viewed as idolatry (this is apparently the view of Singer) it has always been my position that in matters of faith a subjective rather then an objective test should apply - in other words I cannot accept the position that Christians are “idolotrous polytheists” since from their perspective they are monotheists.

Lastly, unfortunately I understood only too well the reference by the poster of the Jews being like dogs, I chose to answer humorously but I would ask to leave the matter there.

Thank you chosen people.

Just like Jews probably find it difficult to get a picture of Christianity its difficult to get a picture of Judaism since there are far too many ideas that contradict each other on both sides… But as I said, I find both Tovia Singer and Michael brown very studied and I enjoyed their dialog immensely. naturally I would call them both Jews and find it rather offensive to say otherwise.
I would not expect for Jews to stop believing things about Christians just because Christians deny their statements… Indeed, we do worship Jesus as Man-God, fully man and fully God, and will suffer the consequences if He is not really the one we think He is, just like you will.

However… I will go to Tovia singer and his disciples and ask them about the missionary question.
As for the dog thing… Whereas no one should deny Jewish suffering throughout its important to understand that there are also groups of Jews that very much look down on other people today. I have heard some really bad stories about Jewish racism (or what to call it) …
A known Danish Jew who sits in the Knesset said that there are also groups in Orthodox Judaism that are far from democratic.
Do you have a comment on this? In see you live in the Holy Land.

Of couse you are not obliged to answer, if you dont have time.

 

[chosen_people]

Thank you chosen people.

Just like Jews probably find it difficult to get a picture of Christianity its difficult to get a picture of Judaism since there are far too many ideas that contradict each other on both sides… But as I said, I find both Tovia Singer and Michael brown very studied and I enjoyed their dialog immensely. naturally I would call them both Jews and find it rather offensive to say otherwise.
I would not expect for Jews to stop believing things about Christians just because Christians deny their statements… Indeed, we do worship Jesus as Man-God, fully man and fully God, and will suffer the consequences if He is not really the one we think He is, just like you will.

However… I will go to Tovia singer and his disciples and ask them about the missionary question.
As for the dog thing… Whereas no one should deny Jewish suffering throughout its important to understand that there are also groups of Jews that very much look down on other people today. I have heard some really bad stories about Jewish racism (or what to call it) …
A known Danish Jew who sits in the Knesset said that there are also groups in Orthodox Judaism that are far from democratic.
Do you have a comment on this? In see you live in the Holy Land.

Of couse you are not obliged to answer, if you dont have time.

First, the point is that you are not going to suffer the consequences, that is the point. The progression towards being able to grasp and understand the God of Israel is gradual and will eventually come to all. If we look at developments after Catholicism, you will not find statues either in a Mosque or even in a Protestant church.

Secondly, if you reject that Yehoshua bar Yosef was the messiah you can hardly be called a Christian. Similarily if you reject Torah or accept a human being as devine then you cannot be Jewish.

I do not know to what you refer to as “Jewish racism” and do not understand why you believe it justifies comparing Jews to dogs.

The question whether any religion can be deemed “democratic” is an interesting one but is hardly specific to Judaism.

 

[chosen_people]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but how come they rejected Torah, and at the same time they included the five books of the Torah in the Bible?

Your defining Torah in its narrow sense. The hebrew word for Torah in the Torah (read:five books of Moses) is usually translated into english as “law”.

 

[GraceDK]

Dea chosen people. Please do not misunderstand me. I attempt to excuse no one who calls Jews dogs. It be far from me to tolerate. On the contrary, if I see such behaviour I first think there must be a misunderstanding.
I was merely saying that human behaviour is the driving force both with many Jews and many Christians and that in our humanity sinfull tendensies as well suspicion towards different people sometimes take the upper hand. We only allow our selves to regard ourselves as perpetual righteous victims if we dont learn to face our own weaknesses and thereby see the weaknesses of others as something similar to our own.

First, the point is that you are not going to suffer the consequences, that is the point. The progression towards being able to grasp and understand the God of Israel is gradual and will eventually come to all. If we look at developments after Catholicism, you will not find statues either in a Mosque or even in a Protestant church.

Interesting… so… what you are saying is that Protestantism and Islam are closer to an escatological fulfilment where you believe all people come to know the true G-d of the Jews?
(I of course cant help but wonder at the spread of knowlege and worship of the Jewish G-d that I already believe to be existing through the spread of Christianity)
But what then do you think about the belief in not being under any law which is held especially among many Protestants and Evangelicals … whereas Catholicism has something that looks a lot like Rabbinical tradition… a somewhat binding tradition-corpus of interpretation, saint litterature and Catholic canon law. Is law less important than statues…?
I find this whole thing with the criteria for salvation for gentiles interesting too, chosen people… Can you give me the some references in Torah where it says I have to only keep the decalog as a gentile ? I will be honest… I have not always kept these commandments and I suspect that I might be forced to offer a sacrifice of atonement until the day I die… that demands blood… but maybe not for me…? what does the gentile do to atone…? she does not pray for forgiveness from a Jewish G-d that she does not know… so what is the atonement for gentiles?

**Secondly, if you reject that Yehoshua bar Yosef was the messiah you can hardly be called a Christian. Similarily if you reject Torah or accept a human being as devine then you cannot be Jewish. **

Your first claim is true… but the other one is well… a slight bit too simplistic.

I do not know to what you refer to as “Jewish racism” and do not understand why you believe it justifies comparing Jews to dogs.

Well I am talking about ultraorthodoxy… they are known both by Gentiles and Jews to be very secluded and to look down on other poeple. I know of a Danish woman that walked in Jerusalem and a Jewish ultraorthodox spat at her only because she was wearing a tang top. … All I am saying is that among all people you can find some who are not doing themselves a favour by the way they act and who sow venom in other people’s hearts.

The question whether any religion can be deemed “democratic” is an interesting one but is hardly specific to Judaism.

Well I was not talking about Judaism per se… I was talking about certain groups in Israeli society. Unlike what you seem to think I ask out of interest and not with an intent to bash your beliefs or your country.

Ps… Do you know Tovia Singer? He works on your team, as you might know… trying to get Messianic Jews to deny Yeshua. Even though I dont agree with Tovia I must say I appreciate his love for God and his understanding of the Love of our heavlenly Father. He seems like a really good and genuine man.
I wonder if you have ever visited the Jerusalem messianic congregation of Shemen Sasson in your work to revert Messianics…? Its always a good thing to meet people face to face and see what turns them on before you try to convince them of something… At any rate… i know you are welcome to come, even as a sceptic. I have been there many times, even though I am a Catholic and not a Messianic Jew. And they are awesome people there

 

[uglygal]

Hi everyone. I was just wondering if Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God or not? I ask because they reject the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. Therefore, is it possible that they are praying to the one true God?

option: neither pray to the true God

 

[HashemEchad]

Dear chosen people.

I have noticed that in the past when I ask you questions for you you refer me to some internet pages instead of offering an explanation your self. Needless to say I am here for a reason and that reason is dialog… not being put somehwere else to read a bunch of stuff that some stranger wrote.

Anyway… I hope you can answer this one just shortly: I listened to a very good discussion yesterday by two Jewish very respectable and well studied gentlemen… one was Dr Michael Brown who believes that Yeshua was the Messiah. The other was Rabbi Tovia Singer who believes the messiah is yet to come and it was not Yeshua… Both are quite famous as you know… maybe you have even met them.

Anyway, my question is this: Tovia was asked if he believes that Christians go to hell. He answered that if they don’t turn from what appears to him to be polytheism and idolatry (worshipping Jesus as God) then they will go to hell for eternity.

I thought: well okay… thats only logical in terms of his belief system… but as far as I recall you have said something else… or no? perhaps I was mistaken?
If Tovia is right… and all gentiles go to hell for worshipping Yeshua… well then that leaves me with another question… one that was not asked in the program: would it not be terribly selfish for Jewish people not to make missionary work among gentiles in order to save them from the hell they are clearly going towards?

I look forward to your reply.
Respectfully,
Grace
( The discussion:
youtube.com/watch?v=Q7pmAeQfXv8 )

Ps… the dog-symbol was actually used by Yeshua to describe non-Jews … the Jews were called the children…
But He did it with no ill intent… it was only an image

I didn’t hear the discussion, but the Jewish conception of “hell” is not the same as the Christian one. I don’t know if Rabbi Singer clarified that or not, since I did not hear the debate.

We believe that all Gentiles have to do to go to the World to Come (what you would call “heaven”) is keep the 7 laws of Noah. For more info, see noahide.org

I know you did not address your post to me, but I wanted to mention that I have been to “messianic” congregational services; in fact before my marriage I dated a “messianic” (who was rather deceptive when we first met because he did not spring that info on me until after a few dates, but in fairness I did attend a few services with him at his request.)

That was actually how I became involved in being a countermissionary, to help get uneducated young Jews out of cults and other nonJewish religious movements.

 

[GraceDK]

I didn’t hear the discussion, but the Jewish conception of “hell” is not the same as the Christian one. I don’t know if Rabbi Singer clarified that or not, since I did not hear the debate.

We believe that all Gentiles have to do to go to the World to Come (what you would call “heaven”) is keep the 7 laws of Noah. For more info, see noahide.org

I know you did not address your post to me, but I wanted to mention that I have been to “messianic” congregational services; in fact before my marriage I dated a “messianic” (who was rather deceptive when we first met because he did not spring that info on me until after a few dates, but in fairness I did attend a few services with him at his request.)

That was actually how I became involved in being a countermissionary, to help get uneducated young Jews out of cults and other nonJewish religious movements.

Dear HE.
I only heard one and a half hour of the discussion and know there was half an hour more… so maybe the Rabbi did explain… but I was just surprised at his use of the word “hell”… he clearly implied that it was some everlasting place or condition in the absence of G-d… that much I understood.

I do not particularly like your last phrase… however non-intentional it is you seem to imply that Yeshua is only accepted as messiah by uneducated, young people… that, with the personal knowlege I have of Messianic jews, is a very unfair statement which shows a lot of arrogance.
When talking to chosen-people I did not ask her if she had been to any messianic congregation… I asked if she had been to Shemen Sasson, which is one particular growing messianic congregation in the middle of Jerusalem that I had the privilege of attending quite a few times when I lived there.
However… if I chose to battle Judaism or something else… I’d probably not do it only on the basis of having found my self reluctantly in one single synagoge … maybe thats an objective basis for you but with all seriousness EH there is alot of difference in Messinic congregations… just like there is among Jewish groups… If I went to a reformed synagoge I would probably get another view than if I stepped into an orthodox assembly… you get my point…

 

[Pug]

Would a Jew likely think that observant Catholics do not keep the Noahide laws? I ask because of the first one about idolatry, because a Catholic (or a Protestant, for that matter) will pray to Jesus, and because a Catholic likely will have statues or icons either in their home or place of worship.

 

[Polaris]

Would a Jew likely think that observant Catholics do not keep the Noahide laws? I ask because of the first one about idolatry, because a Catholic (or a Protestant, for that matter) will pray to Jesus, and because a Catholic likely will have statues or icons either in their home or place of worship.

Most the Jews I know do not think we keep the Noahide laws based on our belief in the trinity. So we are not even Righteous Gentiles. Yet one said to me I still have hope because I use to bring them the light of the world on Friday nights. (I turned their lights on for them )

 

[HashemEchad]

Most the Jews I know do not think we keep the Noahide laws based on our belief in the trinity. So we are not even Righteous Gentiles. Yet one said to me I still have hope because I use to bring them the light of the world on Friday nights. (I turned their lights on for them )

It depends on which Orthodox Jews you ask. Those who follow Maimonides (the majority) would say yes, Christians are idolaters due to the trinitarian belief.

However, Rabbenu Tam did not feel Christians were idolaters because of the trinitarian belief. Some scholars feel Rabbenu Tam felt as he did to “keep the peace”, since he resided in medieval France in a time when people were always looking for a reason to dislike/persecute Jews, while Maimonides lived in Muslim Spain, where a view such as his would have also been held by Muslims.

But regardless, there are two schools of thought withint even Orthodox Judaism on that.

Personally, though I do feel a belief in a trinity stems from pre-Christian paganism (the Hindus also have a trinity, and they portray him with three faces in fact!), the jury is still out in my head as to whether this makes Christians idolaters, for my question is, do they BELIEVE they are worshipping three deities, or just ONE?

My problem, frankly, lies more with the practice of many Catholics in venerating statues.

GRACE DK: When I used the word “uneducated”, I did not mean uneducated in terms of secular knowledge, I meant Jews who are JEWISHLY uneducated (that is, not familiar with what Judaism fully teaches.)

 

[rtconstant]

Well, to me personally I think that intent is everything here. I believe if it is the intent of someone to worship the One True God. Like most of the Hindus I know I think worship the One God because they believe him to be the same God as Christians and Muslims worship and so they intend to worship the One God.

We all have view God differently and obviously only one or none of us can actually be right but I think that God understands when one is intending to honor Him even if their theology is incorrect.

As an aside for our Jewish friends here I was curious about something. I’m familiar with the idea that Jewish concept of Hell (Gehenna correct?) is limited to about a year. To your knowledge has this always been the view or were there different interpretations on that before? Like did some rabbis in the past believe that it was eternal or just longer than a year? If memory serves didn’t the sadducee (sp?) sect not believe in an afterlife at all? I don’t have an alterior motive here I’m just curious.

 

[HashemEchad]

Well, to me personally I think that intent is everything here. I believe if it is the intent of someone to worship the One True God. Like most of the Hindus I know I think worship the One God because they believe him to be the same God as Christians and Muslims worship and so they intend to worship the One God.

We all have view God differently and obviously only one or none of us can actually be right but I think that God understands when one is intending to honor Him even if their theology is incorrect.

As an aside for our Jewish friends here I was curious about something. I’m familiar with the idea that Jewish concept of Hell (Gehenna correct?) is limited to about a year. To your knowledge has this always been the view or were there different interpretations on that before? Like did some rabbis in the past believe that it was eternal or just longer than a year? If memory serves didn’t the sadducee (sp?) sect not believe in an afterlife at all? I don’t have an alterior motive here I’m just curious.

Actually, its not hell that lasts 12 months, its purgatory (yes, we have that too!) Its commonly believed that purgatory lasts 12 months, so the custom is to mourn only for 11 months so as not to imply the deceased was sinful enough to actually NEED a full 12 months.

From what I was always taught, the Jewish concept of hell does last forever, but its not eternal fire as Christians believe, its basically separation from God.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Hi everyone. I was just wondering if Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God or not? I ask because they reject the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. Therefore, is it possible that they are praying to the one true God?

The muslums and jews pray to God the father for that is the one revealed to Abraham. They do pray to the one true God although they fail to realize that he is a trinity.

 

[planten]

The muslums and jews pray to God the father for that is the one revealed to Abraham. They do pray to the one true God although they fail to realize that he is a trinity.

**So that was a bad conclusion. At least SHF has admitted that the Jews and Muslims pray to the same God. But it is not the same God as christians understand it. Conclusion is that all pray to the same God, i.e. the One God. The Jews and Muslims understand that God to be only One and their understanding of their God is the same. But the understanding of that God by the christians is not the same as the other two religions.

So who is the odd one out?? It is the christians. Their belief is not matching the earlier religion (Judaism) and the later religion (Islam). They could easily be at fault**.

 

[ralphinal]

Actually, its not hell that lasts 12 months, its purgatory (yes, we have that too!) Its commonly believed that purgatory lasts 12 months, so the custom is to mourn only for 11 months so as not to imply the deceased was sinful enough to actually NEED a full 12 months.

From what I was always taught, the Jewish concept of hell does last forever, but its not eternal fire as Christians believe, its basically separation from God.

JP II caught all kinds of stuff when he made that same statement about Hell.

Which is worse? The fire or the separation from God for eternity…