Do Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God?

[HashemEchad]

Emerald, Your spirit is one of arrogance (I seem to find that with a number of Catholics on this forum, not sure why.) I’ve found it with a few bornagains also.

If you think that such an attitude will lead anyone to adopt your religious beliefs, think again. Even if I did not know with certainty in my heart that Hashem is God and Him alone, I would never in a million years be led to adopt a religion whose followers often express such arrogance and triumphalism.

I know God is God, and I know Jesus was just a test for Jews. Believe what you will, as a Gentile you can actually believe whatever you choose to.

As a Jew, I have a special covenant with God, and I am called to follow it. God has shown me His love, so many times in my life, through so many direct answers to prayer, that for me to betray him now, and follow another god or religion would be a fearsome thing, and a terrible thing.

Believe as you will, and I will do the same.

As for an answer to Isaiah 53, I posted one. If you expect me to type out a lengthy reply in addition to that, it would be redundant since I’d give the same arguments as the link I posted to.

 

[planten]

Please note what the Lord Jesus said in John 8:37-47;

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

** It was Jesus talking to the Jews. It was correct. But the christians, are they descendents of Abraham? I hope not. They have nothing in common with Abraham. Jesus could not be from Abraham. If he was then only from the mother side. i.e. the son of a woman.

The Jews pray to the same God as did Abraham. The Muslims (Arabs) also claim to hail from the seed of Abraham. They maintain many rituals of the Abraham’s faith. That is strict belief in One God and circumcision and Hajj etc.

So it appears that the christians need to explain about their God who is different to the God of the Jews and the Muslims.**

 

[HashemEchad]

** It was Jesus talking to the Jews. It was correct. But the christians, are they descendents of Abraham? I hope not. They have nothing in common with Abraham. Jesus could not be from Abraham. If he was then only from the mother side. i.e. the son of a woman.

The Jews pray to the same God as did Abraham. The Muslims (Arabs) also claim to hail from the seed of Abraham. They maintain many rituals of the Abraham’s faith. That is strict belief in One God and circumcision and Hajj etc.

So it appears that the christians need to explain about their God who is different to the God of the Jews and the Muslims.**

Traditional Christians try to explain it by claiming God removed His covenant with the Jewish people (chas ve’sholom, God forbid), and somehow, bestowed it upon the Christians. This is why many Christians refer to themselves as “the new Israel”, or “spiritual Jews”.

This was also why, in medieval times, Catholic churches and cathedrals often had two statues on either side of the entrance: one representing Sinagoga (the synagogue), as a blindfolded woman with a broken staff, and Ecclesia (the church), as a woman standing tall and proud, triumphant, not blindfolded.

This belief is part of a very long history of supercessionism in the Christian religion, which resulted in much pain and suffering for Jewish people in history.

 

[Angelos]

** It was Jesus talking to the Jews. It was correct. But the christians, are they descendents of Abraham? I hope not. They have nothing in common with Abraham. Jesus could not be from Abraham. If he was then only from the mother side. i.e. the son of a woman.**

Dear Planten is, as usual, resorting to racist ideals while struggling to explain the uncanny theology peculiar to him.

What do you expect us Christians to have in common with Abraham so as to be designated as his descendants?

Why do you think it is impossible for Jesus to be from Abraham? How can your misogynist views prevent a female (Mary) from being a descendant of Abraham? If your reasoning is true, why did your beloved Allah send Jesus to all Israelites (both men and women!) instead of only to Jewish women as the son of a Jewish female named Mary?

**
The Jews pray to the same God as did Abraham. The Muslims (Arabs) also claim to hail from the seed of Abraham. They maintain many rituals of the Abraham’s faith. That is strict belief in One God and circumcision and Hajj etc.

So it appears that the christians need to explain about their God who is different to the God of the Jews and the Muslims.**

However, your Koran denies your allegations and makes you a liar when it attempts to manipulate Abraham as the father of Islam and Muslims:

Surah 2:135. And they say:** Be Jews** or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters. (The Koran says only Islam is Abraham’s religion!)

Surah 2:140 Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians ? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah ? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah ? Allah is not unaware of what ye do. (Jews do not tell the truth about Abraham’s faith, according to the Koran!)

Surah 3:67. Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters. (Abraham is made a Muslim!)

Finally, where is the commandment of circumcision in the Koran? Where is the commandment of Hajj in the Tanakh?

 

[Angelos]

Traditional Christians try to explain it by claiming God removed His covenant with the Jewish people (chas ve’sholom, God forbid), and somehow, bestowed it upon the Christians. This is why many Christians refer to themselves as “the new Israel”, or “spiritual Jews”.

This was also why, in medieval times, Catholic churches and cathedrals often had two statues on either side of the entrance: one representing Sinagoga (the synagogue), as a blindfolded woman with a broken staff, and Ecclesia (the church), as a woman standing tall and proud, triumphant, not blindfolded.

This belief is part of a very long history of supercessionism in the Christian religion, which resulted in much pain and suffering for Jewish people in history.

You forget that Jesus preached the Gospel only to Jews during His prophetic ministry and that His apostles/disciples proclaimed the same Gospel to Jews before the conversion of the Gentiles (first Jew, then Greek!).

Go back in history further than the medieval period and see what those Christians of the first century (majority being of Jewish origin) suffered in the hands of their fellows! The Acts of Apostles is an excellent book for beginners.

The Christian Church does not officially believe and teach that Jews were excommunicated from God’s grace, for God’s promises and gifts are irrevocable.

 

[emeraldisle]

I still hold that God the Father is the God of Moses. Same God. I still hold that Muslims intend to worship that God but have a flawed understanding of Him and therefore do not have the same level of Truth as Christians or Jews.

Anyone who rejects the Lord Jesus and denies that He is God is not praying to or worshiping the one true God.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. John 8:42

He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8:47

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[emeraldisle]

Emerald, Your spirit is one of arrogance (I seem to find that with a number of Catholics on this forum, not sure why.) I’ve found it with a few bornagains also.

If you think that such an attitude will lead anyone to adopt your religious beliefs, think again. Even if I did not know with certainty in my heart that Hashem is God and Him alone, I would never in a million years be led to adopt a religion whose followers often express such arrogance and triumphalism.

In a previous post you stated the following;

(btw, Fred Klett, who runs that site, is someone I debated with in a public debate once, when he worked as a missionary for a Presbyterian mission in Philadelphia. In case you’re wondering, he lost the debate.

So who is boasting?

As a Jew, I have a special covenant with God, and I am called to follow it. God has shown me His love, so many times in my life, through so many direct answers to prayer, that for me to betray him now, and follow another god or religion would be a fearsome thing, and a terrible thing.

According to what the Son of God, the Lord Jesus says you don’t know God.

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8:37-47

As for an answer to Isaiah 53, I posted one. If you expect me to type out a lengthy reply in addition to that, it would be redundant since I’d give the same arguments as the link I posted to.

I don’t need a lengthy reply just give me the references in the Tanakh were it supposedly says Israel is sinless and so Isaiah 53 refers to Israel.

.

 

[GraceDK]

In a previous post you stated the following;
So who is boasting?
According to what the Son of God, the Lord Jesus says you don’t know God.

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8:37-47

I don’t need a lengthy reply just give me the references in the Tanakh were it supposedly says Israel is sinless and so Isaiah 53 refers to Israel.

.

Dear brother.
Please dont fall in to the trap that many people have fallen into historically by projecting Jesus words onto all Jews in generel. That was hardly the intent with what was written. Jesus spoke to scribes who had hard hearts… they were hypocrites and full of venom and they thought they knew everything but they had no love in them. Jesus himself knew how much grace God had given to each of them so they might recognize Him as the Messiah… He knew their hearts… But you do not see into peoples hearts. You dont know what grace God has put into HashemEchad. I believe she will one day soon come to believe that Yeshua is her Messiah… yes…Yeshua means saviour. She is afraid of the Word Yeshua… but please dont push her away. She is part of the first Covenant with Israel… the apple of God’s eye… In His word it is written: I turned my Face from you for a moment, I was angry at you for a moment, but I turn to you again and am faithful forever. People like HE thinks she is in the service of truth. She also even thinks she is not a missionary… but the only thing that will last always is truth and love. She loathes christianity especially when its practiced by her own people. If we were in her shoes we would be where she is… feel what she feels… if she were in ours she would worship Jesus…
But we must not judge her because we don’t see her heart… only God scrutinizes the depth of the human soul. Maybe He will call her tomorrow and let the veil fall.
We must never take a Scripture passage out of context… Jesus spoke the way He did to the individual… He saw them… He SAW. And he judged them by their hatred and ill will… not by their lack of faith. Because faith is a gift of grace… but evil is a choice. Love stands above faith… you know this.

HashemEchad.
I forgive you for lying and spreading venom about our Sacred Scripture… I speak of the words by Paul that you so grieviously misunderstood… Of all the things I have heard on this crazy forum full of venom that thing that you said was the hardest thing… to see a Jew misunderstand a passage of the New Testament so extremely and not be willing to admit to the mistake. You think you are excused because you serve your own noble cause… but what you did was very wrong. Our Saviour died for the sins of mankind… that is our belief… that was the belief of Paul: Yeshua would rather die than say one lie… Paul was a servant… and he could “become everything to anyone” because he saw himself as crucified with Christ… nothing exterior could save him… only God who is love. But this he knew: Love does not lie… ever.
If you call your self a victim and a child of victims… then dont become a persecuter yourself… You are human and it can happen to you.

 

[HashemEchad]

Emerald, Its OK if you choose to believe I “do not know God” because I refuse to worship a dead Jew. I agree, I do not know YOUR god, and for that I am grateful, for I worship the God of Israel, who is the One and Only True God.

In our belief, many of us believe Christians are idolaters for believing in a three-part deity, and for worshipping a human being.

So I guess that makes us even, eh?

(PS: I can prove your religious teachings are not true: doesn’t it say in your NT, “no one can say 'Jesus is Lord” but by the Holy Spirit"? Well, I do not believe in Jesus, but listen to this:

Jesus is Lord. Do I believe it? Heck no! But I did SAY it just to prove your NT is not true.)

 

[HashemEchad]

Dear brother.
Please dont fall in to the trap that many people have fallen into historically by projecting Jesus words onto all Jews in generel. That was hardly the intent with what was written. Jesus spoke to scribes who had hard hearts… they were hypocrites and full of venom and they thought they knew everything but they had no love in them. Jesus himself knew how much grace God had given to each of them so they might recognize Him as the Messiah… He knew their hearts… But you do not see into peoples hearts. You dont know what grace God has put into HashemEchad. I believe she will one day soon come to believe that Yeshua is her Messiah… yes…Yeshua means saviour. She is afraid of the Word Yeshua… but please dont push her away. She is part of the first Covenant with Israel… the apple of God’s eye… In His word it is written: I turned my Face from you for a moment, I was angry at you for a moment, but I turn to you again and am faithful forever. People like HE thinks she is in the service of truth. She also even thinks she is not a missionary… but the only thing that will last always is truth and love. She loathes christianity especially when its practiced by her own people. If we were in her shoes we would be where she is… feel what she feels… if she were in ours she would worship Jesus…
But we must not judge her because we don’t see her heart… only God scrutinizes the depth of the human soul. Maybe He will call her tomorrow and let the veil fall.
We must never take a Scripture passage out of context… Jesus spoke the way He did to the individual… He saw them… He SAW. And he judged them by their hatred and ill will… not by their lack of faith. Because faith is a gift of grace… but evil is a choice. Love stands above faith… you know this.

HashemEchad.
I forgive you for lying and spreading venom about our Sacred Scripture… I speak of the words by Paul that you so grieviously misunderstood… Of all the things I have heard on this crazy forum full of venom that thing that you said was the hardest thing… to see a Jew misunderstand a passage of the New Testament so extremely and not be willing to admit to the mistake. You think you are excused because you serve your own noble cause… but what you did was very wrong. Our Saviour died for the sins of mankind… that is our belief… that was the belief of Paul: Yeshua would rather die than say one lie… Paul was a servant… and he could “become everything to anyone” because he saw himself as crucified with Christ… nothing exterior could save him… only God who is love. But this he knew: Love does not lie… ever.
If you call your self a victim and a child of victims… then dont become a persecuter yourself… You are human and it can happen to you.

GraceDK,

I will never abandon the One True God of Israel to worship a dead Jew who tried to lead the Jewish people into sin. NEVER. I would rather die than to do that. I say that with all my heart. Deuteronomy 13 speaks plainly of Jesus and characters like him, and it is because of God’s warning in Dt 13 that I KNOW Jesus was nothing more than a test to see if Jews would continue following Hashem, or follow Jesus into idolatry.

I will pray for you and for all Christians to remove themselves from idolatry, and worship the One True God; you do not have to become Jews, all you need do is worship One True God and not practice idolatry.

So I, too, will pray that all polytheists come to know the One, true God. And I believe that someday, you will, because I have found in my lifetime that God always answers my prayers.

As for “lying”, I did not lie. I simply quoted Paul as it is written in the NT, and I interpret it EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN.

When Paul said, “I became AS A JEW THAT I MIGHT WIN THE JEWS”, how else CAN that be understood? He is saying, plainly, that he POSED as a religious Jew that he might TRICK religious Jews into thinking they can be religious Jews and also believe in Jesus.

WHICH IS JUST WHAT “MESSIANICS” DO TODAY! I have even had “messianics” quote that passage to me as justification for their deceptions!

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK,

I will never abandon the One True God of Israel to worship a dead Jew who tried to lead the Jewish people into sin. NEVER. I would rather die than to do that. I say that with all my heart. Deuteronomy 13 speaks plainly of Jesus and characters like him, and it is because of God’s warning in Dt 13 that I KNOW Jesus was nothing more than a test to see if Jews would continue following Hashem, or follow Jesus into idolatry.

I will pray for you and for all Christians to remove themselves from idolatry, and worship the One True God; you do not have to become Jews, all you need do is worship One True God and not practice idolatry.

So I, too, will pray that all polytheists come to know the One, true God. And I believe that someday, you will, because I have found in my lifetime that God always answers my prayers.

As for “lying”, I did not lie. I simply quoted Paul as it is written in the NT, and I interpret it EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN.

When Paul said, “I became AS A JEW THAT I MIGHT WIN THE JEWS”, how else CAN that be understood? He is saying, plainly, that he POSED as a religious Jew that he might TRICK religious Jews into thinking they can be religious Jews and also believe in Jesus.

WHICH IS JUST WHAT “MESSIANICS” DO TODAY! I have even had “messianics” quote that passage to me as justification for their deceptions!

Really… God always answers your prayers?
Luckily He does not always answer mine… for as it is written in the word of GOD His ways are far above our ways and we do not always understand those ways… He makes all things better than I could ever ask for.

I believe… and my Lord asks for faith… not knowlege Because He is the Lord of Israel I trust in Him… and not you who say you know… Jesus says: “If you did not see you would not have sin, but now you say that you see… In sin you remain!”. He loathed the proud who thought that rituals could save them while they had no love… And because of the LOVE we trust in HIM.

You have not understood Paul. Not in the least.
I love the Jews and dont bear them ill will… as for you… you are a MISSIONARY… there is no denying that… but I wont blame that on the rest of the Jewish people… many of them are humble. You are not.
You could learn alot from that “dead Jew” as you call Him about love and humility… but since you KNOW all things… you dont need anything else… So why dont you go join all the other knowing people instead of hanging around with us idolaters…
If I should choose one thing I’d rather be than a Catholic… it would be a JEWISH CHRISTIAN… they are by far the most beautiful people of all

By the way… one Jew once told me: if Jesus was not the Messiah… then the Messiah did not come at the appointed time … and then there is no reason anymore to be a Jew. He was a good Jew alright…and wise too

Good bye and peace.

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK, The attitudes of some of the Christians on this forum (yes, including you) are making me change my lifelong attitude of tolerance and respect toward Christians and their religion. I don’t like that, and I don’t like feeling that way.

I don’t want to hate Christians or their god, and so perhaps its best if we end this right here and now. It won’t serve any good purpose. I know many decent Christians who would never think to try to convert me to their religion. I respect those Christians, and would never try to persuade them not to be Christians.

But as for the others, the triumphalistic, “our way is the right way” types…they actually have made many hate them, their religion, and yes, hate Jesus too. I don’t want to get like that, but I can feel it brewing.

Its amazing how just a few self-righteous people can almost obliterate decades of peace and tolerance between religious groups.

So why not stop it right now? Because if you really want to, I can tear into your religion worse than has been done to mine on this forum, and the thing is, I’d be justified based on the historical record.

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK, The attitudes of some of the Christians on this forum (yes, including you) are making me change my lifelong attitude of tolerance and respect toward Christians and their religion. I don’t like that, and I don’t like feeling that way.

I agree with that. I feel that you are hurting my love and heart too… not in a way that is unreparable… because the Lord heals everything when I ask Him to “forgive my trespasses like I forgive those who trespass against me”. I may feel that you tresspass against me at times HE but because I have His peace in my heart I cannot hate you. How could I!?.. Indeed… I wish you were here so I could serve you a meal and we could pray together.

I don’t want to hate Christians or their god, and so perhaps its best if we end this right here and now. It won’t serve any good purpose. I know many decent Christians who would never think to try to convert me to their religion. I respect those Christians, and would never try to persuade them not to be Christians.

In fact I think its a shame that you don’t try to convert us… Jesus somewhere says to the pharisees: “you won’t go in but you have taken the key and you wont let anyone else enter either”… You call us idolaters and yet you let us remain in our error as you see it. I see no love in that HE. However… this is your theory; that you show your charity by staying silent. However… Since I met you you have been exactly like the missionaries trying to change people and make them turn away from their beliefs. Its totally obvious and there is no getting around it.

But as for the others, the triumphalistic, “our way is the right way” types…they actually have made many hate them, their religion, and yes, hate Jesus too. I don’t want to get like that, but I can feel it brewing.

**Excuse me… but you certainly do say: “My way is the right way”. Oh HE, how can you deny it? You sit here and call my Lord a “god” and say that we are idolaters… I say you seek my God, but you say I am in total error and that you KNOW everything because you are a Jew and keep the old faith … In fact… and I hate to say this… but I too have met some good Christians who loved Jews but who were sometimes tested in this love by pride they met in Jews. Having a history where you were victims makes no excuse for bride… There has also been many martyrs in Christian history… even today many are crucified… but I would never use it as an excuse to treat others badly… **

Its amazing how just a few self-righteous people can almost obliterate decades of peace and tolerance between religious groups.

I agree that there is a danger of that and it does happen from time to time. However… the single individual is repsonsible for her own heart. If you become hateful towards others, then you cannot blame it on them but you must ask the Holy Spirit for more love…ever more love, every day. See, we are all sinners, therefore I know I am not better than you but God loves you and me equally. I have no venom in my heart for you but only sadness that you dont want to admit to anything….

So why not stop it right now? Because if you really want to, I can tear into your religion worse than has been done to mine on this forum, and the thing is, I’d be justified based on the historical record.

**Oh HE… How can you say such things… Cant you hear how you speak out of the utter darkness now?
I am sorry for you… not because you don’t have Him that has saved me in every way, but because these last words testify to such darkness. See, this is the first truth: YOU would never ever be justified in any act of hatred… ever. Thats all there is to that. One day you will stand before the Lord and He will measure you according to how you loved… and you will stand there alone in front of Him…
Jews are hated in the world today because of Palestinian suffering… and suffering there is. But there never is any excuse for hating one Jew… not the ones who did not commit the crimes… and not even the ones who actually did… because all that belongs to God and we all need His mercy…
you need it too HE.

I have one last proporsition for you. Why don’t we pray together right here and now on this thread to the Father who is Love and Compassion… The truth is… that all we are called to is love and if we have no love for our neighbour it does not matter what we call ourselves for then we are walking dead.**

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK, Judaism does not try to convert Gentiles to our faith. We do not believe Gentiles need to be Jews to achieve a share of the World to Come. I have explained this until I am blue in the face on this forum.

Christianity and Islam are the only religions I know of that do try to convert others. I am not out to convert Gentiles to Judaism. However, I will not deny that one goal I do have is to lead Jews back to Judaism, who got involved in cults and other nonJewish religions. I will never deny that, and interestingly, one reason I decided to stick around on this forum was because I did have a person PM me here a few months ago, a Jewish person who had once become Catholic and who now wanted to return to Judaism. I realized that if I had not stumbled upon this forum, he might never have been able to reach out to someone who had the ability to direct him in the right path, to find out how to return.

So yes, I am a missionary, but not in the way Christians are. I only seek to help JEWS come back to their birthright faith. As for Gentiles, it really doesn’t matter what they believe, as long as they don’t harm anyone. Gentiles could all decide tommorrow to worship a five-headed tree frog, and it wouldn’t matter to me, as long as they don’t also try to persuade Jews to do the same.

So why would I want to try to convert you when my religion does not ask me to do that? That’s your religion that does that, not mine. Just another example of how Judaism and Christianity may have some similarities, but are still miles apart in doctrine.

And as for praying together, I know that Christians are only allowed to pray in the name of Jesus, and Jews cannot pray in the name of another religion’s deity.

What galls me about this entire thing is: when I FIRST came to this forum, I came with love in my heart for all the people of the world, regardless of their faith. I did not seek to convert any Gentiles away from their chosen faith, and expected they would do the same. I came to this forum having previously spent much time in Jewish-Christian ecumenical activities, and had NEVER encountered such arrogance and conversionary attempts by Christians (let alone the hatred and nastiness from some here.)

After being here a few months, I am coming to see that what some Orthodox Jewish friends had warned me about is true: they advised me to get away from this forum, and leave Christians to their own devices. I truly felt that brotherhood could be possible between Jews and Christians, but I am now starting to see that perhaps the medieval Jewish approach was best: We keep to ourselves, and hopefully, they will stay to themselves and not harass us. That is the standard Orthodox Jewish approach (which is why you rarely ever see Orthodox Jews involved in Jewish-Christian ecumenical activities.) I was one of the “oddball” Orthodox Jews who wanted to reach out to Christians in UNDERSTANDING (not missionary work.)

Since being here, NOT ONCE have I tried to convert any Gentile to Judaism…yet a number of you have (variously) tried to convert me, insulted my faith, ridiculed what I believe, spread antisemitic lies from neoNazi websites, and so on. I’ve never seen anything like it in my life.

But now I see trying to get along is indeed useless…just as mostly all Orthodox Jews believe.

Being here has radically changed me. I doubt I will ever feel able to trust any Christian again, esp. if they have conversionary motives.

 

[HashemEchad]

In closing, here is an article you might want to ponder:

web.israelinsider.com/Views/12754.htm

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK, Judaism does not try to convert Gentiles to our faith. We do not believe Gentiles need to be Jews to achieve a share of the World to Come. I have explained this until I am blue in the face on this forum.
Christianity and Islam are the only religions I know of that do try to convert others. I am not out to convert Gentiles to Judaism. However, I will not deny that one goal I do have is to lead Jews back to Judaism, who got involved in cults and other nonJewish religions. I will never deny that, and interestingly, one reason I decided to stick around on this forum was because I did have a person PM me here a few months ago, a Jewish person who had once become Catholic and who now wanted to return to Judaism. I realized that if I had not stumbled upon this forum, he might never have been able to reach out to someone who had the ability to direct him in the right path, to find out how to return.

Good for you I guess … I am also happy for one thing about these fora: because of Catholic-Answers I got some amazing conversion stories from Jews whom God Himself had told that Yeshua is Messiah. I like miracles… I really do… and God is much better at telling the truth than humans are.

So yes, I am a missionary, but not in the way Christians are. I only seek to help JEWS come back to their birthright faith. As for Gentiles, it really doesn’t matter what they believe, as long as they don’t harm anyone. Gentiles could all decide tommorrow to worship a five-headed tree frog, and it wouldn’t matter to me, as long as they don’t also try to persuade Jews to do the same.

I dont find anything admirable in that. That means you do indeed share Tovia Singers idea that we are all going to hell because we trespass the commands by worshipping an idol and yet you dont lift a finger to stop that… so much for love.

And as for praying together, I know that Christians are only allowed to pray in the name of Jesus, and Jews cannot pray in the name of another religion’s deity.

Actually you are wrong again. We talk to our Father… sometimes we say “in the name of Yeshua” sometimes we dont. You talk about ecumenism and yet you dont know that? I find that odd… I wonder if your ecumenism is more like a chat about the weather over coffee.

What galls me about this entire thing is: when I FIRST came to this forum, I came with love in my heart for all the people of the world, regardless of their faith. I did not seek to convert any Gentiles away from their chosen faith, and expected they would do the same. I came to this forum having previously spent much time in Jewish-Christian ecumenical activities, and had NEVER encountered such arrogance and conversionary attempts by Christians (let alone the hatred and nastiness from some here.)

Indeed… I could have told you not to come here…But let me also say: when I first met you I had a keen interest in you and had no ill-will towards you… but I have found you highly arrogant in most of your posts… and careless about the feelings of others to a extreme extent. You overlook all your own faults… think you can say whatever… How much more is that not proven when you attack my Lord and the apostles? Calling Him dead and an idol… no… it certainly does not get anymore unreconciling than that… so don’t say you have come in any way to me carrying peace.

After being here a few months, I am coming to see that what some Orthodox Jewish friends had warned me about is true: they advised me to get away from this forum, and leave Christians to their own devices. I truly felt that brotherhood could be possible between Jews and Christians, but I am now starting to see that perhaps the medieval Jewish approach was best: We keep to ourselves, and hopefully, they will stay to themselves and not harass us. That is the standard Orthodox Jewish approach (which is why you rarely ever see Orthodox Jews involved in Jewish-Christian ecumenical activities.) I was one of the “oddball” Orthodox Jews who wanted to reach out to Christians in UNDERSTANDING (not missionary work.)

No… you should start to see that you have to change and become more humble… that’s what you have to start to see… keeping to your self is the next best thing. The best one is to go out and meet people…Face to face. You see, HE… I would never advice you to stay on these fora… I think Jews and Christians alike behave repulsive on these boards at times… But I leave the boards if it starts getting to me… Because I will answer for my self and my heart every time I pray… not for anyone else.

Since being here, NOT ONCE have I tried to convert any Gentile to Judaism…yet a number of you have (variously) tried to convert me, insulted my faith, ridiculed what I believe, spread antisemitic lies from neoNazi websites, and so on. I’ve never seen anything like it in my life.

Actually… you have been doing exactly what everyone else has done… you have argued Scripture… tried to prove points about who the Messiah is and is not and told us we were in error and you stood in the truth… We have not wanted to convert you but just like you, we have also said what we believe… you have taken that as missionary activity… seeing the splinter in your brother’s eye but refusing to see the plank in your own.
The difference between you and me is that you take this very personal and thinks that you are high above the rest of us. As I said I think you have insulted my faith far more than any anti-Catholic has ever done… and they are hard to beat. But like them I forgive you and send you my embrace… Because you dont know what you are doing.

But now I see trying to get along is indeed useless…just as mostly all Orthodox Jews believe.
Being here has radically changed me. I doubt I will ever feel able to trust any Christian again, esp. if they have conversionary motives.

Pardon me, but that shows much more about you than it does about anyone else: that you will allow ill-will to come in to your own heart and stop trusting people in real life because of a few sinners on the internet.

So, yes… I do think you need a break… Go out and meet some people face to face instead. These fora do suck… but not because they are filled with Christians or Jews… but because they are filled with humans who want to misunderstand and defend their own right more than anything…
That’s why I love Christ… He did not defend Himself. He is everything that the world is not. If you really want to understand us, like you say, then there is something for you to meditate on.

I love you. God bless you. Good night HE.

 

[HashemEchad]

As I said Grace DK, there have been (Catholics) on this forum who, since I have been here and without any provocation from me, have insulted my religion, my Torah, my God, and tried to convert me, and so I felt it was therefore fair for me to refer to your deity as I honestly see him: a dead Jew. If others can be open, then why can’t I?

He was a Jew, and he died. I didn’t state anything that is false when I said that. Until recently, I didn’t even think he really existed.

Its as if we Jews can never win. Christians refuse to see it from our perspective. Even when we try to keep to ourselves, Christians come after us to proselytize us, and when we justly try to repel the effort, WE become the bad guys, the blasphemers, etc. The only way Christians will be happy is if we convert, the way they want us to. And some Jews did in medieval times, just to get the Christians off their back with their Inquisitions and auto da fe’s and expulsions.

But I would no more believe in Jesus as I would Buddha, Krishna or any other nonJewish deity. And I feel more firmly that way now than when I first found this forum by accident.

(Incidentally, we have a friend staying at our home this week who comes from a Catholic background originally, but who became an Orthodox Jew a number of years ago. I let him read some of these comments, and the one question he had for me was, “Is she a convert to Catholicism?” (referring to you)

I didn’t know, so I researched some of your older posts and sure enough, he was right!)

 

[emeraldisle]

Emerald, Its OK if you choose to believe I “do not know God” because I refuse to worship a dead Jew. I agree, I do not know YOUR god, and for that I am grateful, for I worship the God of Israel, who is the One and Only True God.

I see you are still trying to avoid the evidence in the Tanakh that clearly shows that Isaiah 53 doesn’t refer to Israel but that it refers to the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.

This is important as you accept the Tanakh as being from the true God.

.

 

[HashemEchad]

I see you are still trying to avoid the evidence in the Tanakh that clearly shows that Isaiah 53 doesn’t refer to Israel but that it refers to the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.

This is important as you accept the Tanakh as being from the true God.

.

I linked to a thorough discussion from the Jewish POV, showing that Yeshayahu 53 does in fact refer to the people of Israel.

If you want to think it refers to the nazarene, that is your choice.

We’re just going to go around in circles forever, because you see it one way and Judaism sees it another way.

BTW, just out of curiosity, if, as you believe, the nazarene was the person spoken of in Yeshayahu (“Isaiah”) 53, then who were the nazarene’s physical descendants? Because Yeshayahu 53 speaks of the suffering servant living to see his **physical **descendants (going by the original Hebrew of the text.)

The word used for “seed” in that segment of Yeshayahu 53 always means physical descendants. There is another word in Hebrew that means spiritual descendants, but it is not used in chapter 53, only in Deut. 14:1.

 

[Valke2]

I see you are still trying to avoid the evidence in the Tanakh that clearly shows that Isaiah 53 doesn’t refer to Israel but that it refers to the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.

This is important as you accept the Tanakh as being from the true God.

.

Jews and Christians have been arguing over this for about 1,200 years. I’m confident that this thread will definitively set the issue to rest.