Do Jews and Muslims pray to the one true God?

[Angelos]

Why do you find that hard to believe? Wasn’t Isaiah a prophet? Don’t prophets foretell the future?

Who gave them authority to bear the sins of all Jews (of their generation)? Jewish teaching did.

You see, Judaism teaches that sometimes, God chooses certain righteous Jews to bear the sins of the rest of their generation (note, this does not mean they bear the sins of ALL Jews or ALL people of ALL time, but only those of their specific generation.)

This is probably where the early Christians (being of Jewish origin) got their idea from, of Jesus supposedly “bearing the sins of the world”…except that in Jewish teaching, the suffering servant(s) do not bear the sins of ALL people of ALL time (as Christians claim Jesus does), but only all the Jews of THAT generation.

If you want to learn more about this, see Derech Hashem by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto.

I have a couple of questions :

1) Does Isaiah say that every certain Jew can be designated as the suffering servant of God whenever he/she surrenders to atrocities by oppressive people? What is the essential criterion that determines which Jew can bear the sins of which Jew?

2) Why is Isaiah the only prophet to talk of the suffering servant?

3) Since you claim that some Jews oppressed recurrently bear the sins of some other Jews, when for the first time in history was Isaiah’s prediction fulfilled? During the Roman invasion in 70 A.D. or 1945? Jews had suffered until the holocaust by Nazis. Did Isaiah’s prophecy come true prior to that date? When? How?

4) Why do Jews of our time in Israel retaliate when Muslims attack them and suicide bombers blow up themselves in the Holy Land? Have Jews given up the idea of becoming God’s suffering servant in Isaiah and bearing the sins of their fellows? Why is it not possible now for Isaiah’s prophecy to come true?

Thanks and shalom.

 

[Verisimilitude]

This is probably where the early Christians (being of Jewish origin) got their idea from, of Jesus supposedly “bearing the sins of the world”…except that in Jewish teaching, the suffering servant(s) do not bear the sins of ALL people of ALL time (as Christians claim Jesus does), but only all the Jews of THAT generation.

You could be mistaken in your understanding.

John 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

It happens.

 

[HashemEchad]

You need to remember to distinguish between religious Jews and nonreligious Jews.

Most of the Jews in the Holy Land who fight in the military are not religious. Most Israelis are secular, and so they act as secular Jews (and Gentiles) act.

TRULY RELIGIOUS Jews are actually pacifist. Chasidic Jews do not fight back for the most part, this is why they do not join the Israeli army.

Truly religious Jews are also not zionist; many are actively anti-zionist, because they recognize what Jewish law teaches: the nation of Israel (the Jewish people) cannot be returned en masse to the Land of Promise until the Messiah comes. This is outlined in the Talmud, Kesubos 111a.

The Jews that fight back against their oppressors are not religious, and so, know nothing of what Jewish Law teaches about being a suffering servant. It is no coincidence that 3 out of every 4 Chasidic Jews died in the Nazi churban (destruction). This is because God chose them to bear the sins of their entire generation…most Jews at that time in Europe were highly assimilated, esp. in Germany (where, ironically, the genocide began.)

TRULY observant Jews pray and keep to themselves. They do not fight, join armies, or get too involved in worldly affairs. AND they are 100% loyal to the nation God set them into in exile; they do not try to harm that nation, and work/pray for its wellbeing, as commanded to do by the prophet Yirmayahu (Jeremiah.)

These are an example of truly religious Jews: jewsagainstzionism.com

 

[GraceDK]

You need to remember to distinguish between religious Jews and nonreligious Jews.

Most of the Jews in the Holy Land who fight in the military are not religious. Most Israelis are secular, and so they act as secular Jews (and Gentiles) act.

TRULY RELIGIOUS Jews are actually pacifist. Chasidic Jews do not fight back for the most part, this is why they do not join the Israeli army.

Truly religious Jews are also not zionist; many are actively anti-zionist, because they recognize what Jewish law teaches: the nation of Israel (the Jewish people) cannot be returned en masse to the Land of Promise until the Messiah comes. This is outlined in the Talmud, Kesubos 111a.

The Jews that fight back against their oppressors are not religious, and so, know nothing of what Jewish Law teaches about being a suffering servant. It is no coincidence that 3 out of every 4 Chasidic Jews died in the Nazi churban (destruction). This is because God chose them to bear the sins of their entire generation…most Jews at that time in Europe were highly assimilated, esp. in Germany (where, ironically, the genocide began.)

TRULY observant Jews pray and keep to themselves. They do not fight, join armies, or get too involved in worldly affairs. AND they are 100% loyal to the nation God set them into in exile; they do not try to harm that nation, and work/pray for its wellbeing, as commanded to do by the prophet Yirmayahu (Jeremiah.)

These are an example of truly religious Jews: jewsagainstzionism.com

Okay… so let me get this straight HE… Are you in fact a Chasidic (ultra-orthodox) Jew? From how you speak I guess you are…
But the Chasidic Jews are not recognized as sound believers by Orthodox Jews as far as I have heard… Chasidic Jews keep to themselves and have little tolerance for anyone else… they are also the worst percecuters of Jews who have chosen to embrace Christ… Orthodox Jews believe that Chasidid Jews have gone over the edge on many areas… This is according to my understanding… if I am wrong then try to explain to me but do it as objective as you can concerning how other Jewish groups view themselves.
At any rate your words confuse me also since there is so many Chasidic Jews as well as Orthodox Jews in the Holy Land…

 

[HashemEchad]

Okay… so let me get this straight HE… Are you in fact a Chasidic (ultra-orthodox) Jew? From how you speak I guess you are…
But the Chasidic Jews are not recognized as sound believers by Orthodox Jews as far as I have heard… Chasidic Jews keep to themselves and have little tolerance for anyone else… they are also the worst percecuters of Jews who have chosen to embrace Christ… Orthodox Jews believe that Chasidid Jews have gone over the edge on many areas… This is according to my understanding… if I am wrong then try to explain to me but do it as objective as you can concerning how other Jewish groups view themselves.
At any rate your words confuse me also since there is so many Chasidic Jews as well as Orthodox Jews in the Holy Land…

I think you are about 400 years late if you think that.

In the 1600s, when Chasidism first started with the Baal Shem Tov, it is true, the mitnagdim (“regular” Orthodox) did not like them and there was division. But that was then, and things are VERY different now.

The most visible Chasidic group, the Lubavitchers (also known as CHABAD) are very well-respected and liked, and usually work hand-in-hand with the “regular” Orthodox on various issues. The divisions are from 400 years ago, and are long gone.

“Ultra” Orthodox Jews do not harass anyone; we simply ask to be left alone to follow Torah. Yes, we will react when people try to convert us, but we do not go out looking for people to bother, by any means.

And YES there are many Chasidic Jews in the Holy Land, but those are the ones who are FROM there. Jewish Law requires Jews in exile to stay in the land God put them in, until Messiah comes. And so, naturally, if a Jew was born in the Holy Land, he has to stay there. Ditto for a Jew born in the USA, like me.

You see, contrary to zionist claims, there have always been religious Jews in the Holy Land, long before the zionists set up camp in the late 1800s. They got along quite well with the Muslims there too, because BOTH were there for SPIRITUAL reasons. Religious Jews have always made pilgrimages to the Holy Land, and often chose to move there when they were close to death, so they could be buried in the Land of Promise.

We do not hate the LAND; we dislike the secular GOVERNMENT run by zionists, who TAKEN OVER the Land before God’s appointed time, and have made a cesspool of immorality out of it.

We believe the Land does belong to the Jewish people, but NOT YET…it will be truly ours when the Messiah comes, and not before.

The strife and contention in the Holy Land is due to ZIONISM. The Jews and Arabs there before zionism got along well, because both were there for spiritual purposes. Zionism is actually a primary cause of antisemitism in the world, because it makes people see Jews and Judaism as a boastful, militaristic, violent religion and we are not that.

You can learn a lot more about this by going to: jewsagainstzionism.com

 

[emeraldisle]

“Ultra” Orthodox Jews do not harass anyone; we simply ask to be left alone to follow Torah. Yes, we will react when people try to convert us, but we do not go out looking for people to bother, by any means.

U.S. immigrant beaten up in ‘pogrom’ by ultra-Orthodox gang
By Daphna Berman, Haaretz Correspondent

An American immigrant was attacked and beaten Sunday night in Beit Shemesh by a gang of ultra-Orthodox zealots, in what appears to be an escalation of tension between religious groups in the city.

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/946830.html

.

 

[HashemEchad]

U.S. immigrant beaten up in ‘pogrom’ by ultra-Orthodox gang
By Daphna Berman, Haaretz Correspondent

An American immigrant was attacked and beaten Sunday night in Beit Shemesh by a gang of ultra-Orthodox zealots, in what appears to be an escalation of tension between religious groups in the city.

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/946830.html

.

This was also in the article:

In response, residents of Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet, a Haredi stronghold in the city, held a protest Monday night. This was the first time ultra-Orthodox residents came out strongly against **fringe elements **from within their own community.

“My attackers thought they won, but there is a procession in my support,” said T., who was born in New York>>>

There are rotten apples in all communities. Shall I hold the entire Catholic religion responsible for the three Catholic school girls who beat me up, calling me “christ killer” when I was 10 years old? Certainly they were your religion’s “fringe element”, were they not?

The Chasidic Jewish community I am involved with does not do anything like that; if anything, we are often victimized by zionists (sometimes violently) because we adhere to traditional Jewish beliefs about the Holy Land.

(BTW Haaretz is a very liberal, socialist Israeli newspaper…they have a grudge against religious Jews, which is why they often highlight stories like that.)

 

[emeraldisle]

There are rotten apples in all communities. Shall I hold the entire Catholic religion responsible for the three Catholic school girls who beat me up, calling me “christ killer” when I was 10 years old? Certainly they were your religion’s “fringe element”, were they not?

The Chasidic Jewish community I am involved with does not do anything like that; if anything, we are often victimized by zionists (sometimes violently) because we adhere to traditional Jewish beliefs about the Holy Land.

The problem is you made the following statement;

“Ultra” Orthodox Jews do not harass anyone;

now we know that is not true because some “Ultra” Orthodox Jews do sadly harass and attack people.

Imo the heart of the matter is the problem of “mans” heart, which is sinful. The Lord Jesus Christ was sinless and so He is the suffering servant re Isaiah 53, He is the Messiah.

.

 

[HashemEchad]

The problem is you made the following statement;

now we know that is not true because some “Ultra” Orthodox Jews do sadly harass and attack people.

Imo the heart of the matter is the problem of “mans” heart, which is sinful. The Lord Jesus Christ was sinless and so He is the suffering servant re Isaiah 53, He is the Messiah.

.

As I said, some of every group can be bad. I never meant to imply that there are NO bad apples in my group.

The Irish Catholic girls who beat me up as a child and called me a christ killer…tell me, should I assume all Irish Catholics were represented by them? For many years, I thought so.

 

[planten]

Most of the above posts should have been in an entirely different thread.

Re this: Do Jews and Moslems pray to the one true God?

Yes. Christians, Jews and Moslems worship the one true God.

** There is one true God and I believe the Muslims and Jews do pray to A One God. But there is a doubt about the christians whether they pray to the One God. They have Jesus too to whom they pray while Jesus himself used to pray to some one else.

There is only One God. Only One God and not two. Muslims and Jews, as per their beliefs and books (scripture) do adhere strictly to that One God theory. But the christians beliefs are mixed and cannot be the same as those of Muslims and Jews. Even though the bible NT still holds some true points of One God only.

The christians are tied up between One God and three gods. That is because they say, there is father God and a son God and a holy spirit God. That is three gods and One god at the same time. Quite complicated matter. I will not pass any more remark about the belief of the christians. Thanks.**

 

[Angelos]

** There is one true God and I believe the Muslims and Jews do pray to A One God. But there is a doubt about the christians whether they pray to the One God. They have Jesus too to whom they pray while Jesus himself used to pray to some one else.

There is only One God. Only One God and not two. Muslims and Jews, as per their beliefs and books (scripture) do adhere strictly to that One God theory. But the christians beliefs are mixed and cannot be the same as those of Muslims and Jews. Even though the bible NT still holds some true points of One God only.

The christians are tied up between One God and three gods. That is because they say, there is father God and a son God and a holy spirit God. That is three gods and One god at the same time. Quite complicated matter. I will not pass any more remark about the belief of the christians. Thanks.**

You always repeat the faulty allegations of the Koran about Christian doctrine of Triune God. Since Mohammad and his scribes knew nothing about basic Christian tenets, the only thing they could do was to slander our faith and distort our scripture.

Besides, the Koran overtly dissents from you when it pushes BOTH Jews and Christians into the same cate category of polytheists. According to your scripture, which you choose to ignore from time to time, Jews and Christians became equal to pagans since they supposedly worshipped their religious leaders!

 

[GraceDK]

I think you are about 400 years late if you think that.

In the 1600s, when Chasidism first started with the Baal Shem Tov, it is true, the mitnagdim (“regular” Orthodox) did not like them and there was division. But that was then, and things are VERY different now.

The most visible Chasidic group, the Lubavitchers (also known as CHABAD) are very well-respected and liked, and usually work hand-in-hand with the “regular” Orthodox on various issues. The divisions are from 400 years ago, and are long gone.

“Ultra” Orthodox Jews do not harass anyone; we simply ask to be left alone to follow Torah. Yes, we will react when people try to convert us, but we do not go out looking for people to bother, by any means.

And YES there are many Chasidic Jews in the Holy Land, but those are the ones who are FROM there. Jewish Law requires Jews in exile to stay in the land God put them in, until Messiah comes. And so, naturally, if a Jew was born in the Holy Land, he has to stay there. Ditto for a Jew born in the USA, like me.

You see, contrary to zionist claims, there have always been religious Jews in the Holy Land, long before the zionists set up camp in the late 1800s. They got along quite well with the Muslims there too, because BOTH were there for SPIRITUAL reasons. Religious Jews have always made pilgrimages to the Holy Land, and often chose to move there when they were close to death, so they could be buried in the Land of Promise.

We do not hate the LAND; we dislike the secular GOVERNMENT run by zionists, who TAKEN OVER the Land before God’s appointed time, and have made a cesspool of immorality out of it.

We believe the Land does belong to the Jewish people, but NOT YET…it will be truly ours when the Messiah comes, and not before.

The strife and contention in the Holy Land is due to ZIONISM. The Jews and Arabs there before zionism got along well, because both were there for spiritual purposes. Zionism is actually a primary cause of antisemitism in the world, because it makes people see Jews and Judaism as a boastful, militaristic, violent religion and we are not that.

You can learn a lot more about this by going to: jewsagainstzionism.com

No… I am not late. Thats arrogance from your part. Unlike you I am not afraid to admit when there are things I am not well studied in… and I have made clear that I am not knowlegable about Chasidig roots… the only thing I ever heard about you was from someone who said that you are a “Jewish cult that is fairly new”… interesting use of words … but besides from that I must say the last part is true… 400 years is a short time.
Anyway… maybe its because you have a lot of misconceptions about Christianity that I find it a bit difficulty to just take your word for what is going on. I will talk to more Jews before I believe that you are all friends who highly respect each other… coz from what I have seen in Israel many Chasidim dont work and they look down on people who are a little different in their interpretation of rules that need to be kept and how… For that same reason I find it difficult to believe that they have been there for 2000 years…
But again… enlighten me… and don’t give me webpages… I am here to hear the perspective of a person. And I could give you a bunch too… but I know you wont look at them anyway.
As for a Christian perspective you have made clear you are here to argue and fight against that… so I do see this discussion as moving into better ground now:… you tell me about something that you really know something about - the religious tradition you live in - … then I can learn something from you… Maybe one day you can get taught too if you find a tiny hole in your own knowlege HE …

 

[GraceDK]

Dear HE.
I did some further studies into Zollers conversion… read some encyclopedial stuff about it… and well… its
his words against the words of the Orthodox Jews of his time who of course did not like his conversion… Its as logical as anything that this whole thing is a matter of faith.
If Jews in generel said that they believed in Zoller’s testimony they would also have to accept that Yeshua is Messiah… So of course they dismiss it… really out necessity… Just like I dismis anyone as deceived by their psycke or by evil spirits who say they are remember past lives (reincarnation)… because this is my belief.
So … I believe this is the case HE: In order to get the most solid basis for an analysis we both have to read his own biographic book called “**Before the Dawn”. **You have no authority to slander and call a man a deceiver if you dont even hear the case with his own words…

 

[Valke2]

Getting back to the topic of religious tolerance.

I think we can, or should, agree that our expressions of faith, our Love of God, is expressed in many different ways, even within the same religion, let alone among different religions. Just as I would not look over at the Jew praying next to me and criticize him or her for not praying the exact same way as me, I should not look across the street and criticize the muslim or christian for not praying the same way as me.

Instead, I should be happy for and encouraged by anyone I see communicating, struggling, embracing or otherwise engaged with God. In a sense, the Golden Rule demands religious tolerance on the most basic level.

 

[HashemEchad]

Dear HE.
I did some further studies into Zollers conversion… read some encyclopedial stuff about it… and well… its
his words against the words of the Orthodox Jews of his time who of course did not like his conversion… Its as logical as anything that this whole thing is a matter of faith.
If Jews in generel said that they believed in Zoller’s testimony they would also have to accept that Yeshua is Messiah… So of course they dismiss it… really out necessity… Just like I dismis anyone as deceived by their psycke or by evil spirits who say they are remember past lives (reincarnation)… because this is my belief.
So … I believe this is the case HE: In order to get the most solid basis for an analysis we both have to read his own biographic book called “**Before the Dawn”. **You have no authority to slander and call a man a deceiver if you dont even hear the case with his own words…

GraceDK,

I read Zoller’s own book many years ago, back when it was still available under its original title, “Before the Dawn” (Sheed and Ward). (Its since been reprinted under the title, “Why I Became A Catholic”.)

In fact I own an original issue copy of it under the original title. I’m very familiar with Zoller’s side of the story, as well as the Jewish side. I also am still mystified as to why a (non-Jewish) reporter who interviewed Zoller, his wife and daughter after his conversion, found his daughter woefully ignorant of even the basic Jewish customs and practices. I think that shed a tremendous light onto Zoller and his Jewishness, because I do not know of any Orthodox rabbi (certainly not a chief rabbi) whose own children would be so ignorant of Judaism.

You seem to think I have not researched this issue; I have. Zoller was a meshumad le’hakhis, an apostate for spite…perhaps the worst reason anyone could apostasize from their religion, regardless of what that religion is.

He wanted to get revenge on the Jewish community of Rome for refusing to hire him back after the war…even though he shirked his religious duty as a rabbi, by hiding out with the Catholics while his own people were rounded up and sent to the gas chambers.

Believe what you want; I have read both sides, and furthermore, my late mother (who was in the process of converting to Judaism when the Zoller scandal hit), saved many news clippings about it, which I still have. My mother had taken a special interest in the Zoller case, because she was Italian herself, and was becoming Jewish.

 

[Booklover]

** There is one true God and I believe the Muslims and Jews do pray to A One God. But there is a doubt about the christians whether they pray to the One God. They have Jesus too to whom they pray while Jesus himself used to pray to some one else.**

And “Allah” whom you claim is the God that Jews worship, calls both them and the Christians, “the sons of apes and pigs!” How can you possibly believe that the real God would say such a thing! Thiose are the words of a man who couldn’t brook any opposition.

**

There is only One God. Only One God and not two. Muslims and Jews, as per their beliefs and books (scripture) do adhere strictly to that One God theory. But the christians beliefs are mixed and cannot be the same as those of Muslims and Jews. Even though the bible NT still holds some true points of One God only.

**

The christians are tied up between One God and three gods. That is because they say, there is father God and a son God and a holy spirit God. That is three gods and One god at the same time. Quite complicated matter. I will not pass any more remark about the belief of the christians. Thanks.

Yes, there is only one God, and that is what we Christians believe, but just because both Jews and Muslims look at him with the human proposition that 1=1, does not mean that the Creator of the whole universe can and should be measured by human terms!

Vickie

 

[catharina]

** There is one true God and I believe the Muslims and Jews do pray to A One God. But there is a doubt about the christians whether they pray to the One God. They have Jesus too to whom they pray while Jesus himself used to pray to some one else.

There is only One God. Only One God and not two. Muslims and Jews, as per their beliefs and books (scripture) do adhere strictly to that One God theory. But the christians beliefs are mixed and cannot be the same as those of Muslims and Jews. Even though the bible NT still holds some true points of One God only.

The christians are tied up between One God and three gods. That is because they say, there is father God and a son God and a holy spirit God. That is three gods and One god at the same time. Quite complicated matter. I will not pass any more remark about the belief of the christians. Thanks.**

Thank you for stating your misunderstandings about the faith that Christians hold regarding God - but they are misunderstandings. The Chrisitan belief regarding the one God is this: “God is the Supreme Being Who made all things and keeps them in existence.” Our belief continues: “There are three Persons in One God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” No one pretends this is easily understood, yet it is accepted as a central doctrine of our Faith.

In no sense, do Christians believe in the notion of three gods.

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK,

I read Zoller’s own book many years ago, back when it was still available under its original title, “Before the Dawn” (Sheed and Ward). (Its since been reprinted under the title, “Why I Became A Catholic”.)

In fact I own an original issue copy of it under the original title. I’m very familiar with Zoller’s side of the story, as well as the Jewish side. I also am still mystified as to why a (non-Jewish) reporter who interviewed Zoller, his wife and daughter after his conversion, found his daughter woefully ignorant of even the basic Jewish customs and practices. I think that shed a tremendous light onto Zoller and his Jewishness, because I do not know of any Orthodox rabbi (certainly not a chief rabbi) whose own children would be so ignorant of Judaism.

You seem to think I have not researched this issue; I have. Zoller was a meshumad le’hakhis, an apostate for spite…perhaps the worst reason anyone could apostasize from their religion, regardless of what that religion is.

He wanted to get revenge on the Jewish community of Rome for refusing to hire him back after the war…even though he shirked his religious duty as a rabbi, by hiding out with the Catholics while his own people were rounded up and sent to the gas chambers.

Believe what you want; I have read both sides, and furthermore, my late mother (who was in the process of converting to Judaism when the Zoller scandal hit), saved many news clippings about it, which I still have. My mother had taken a special interest in the Zoller case, because she was Italian herself, and was becoming Jewish.

So… to sum up your case against Zoller there are two elements:

1. He hid in the Vatican during the Nazi reign (as did many other Jews and freedom fighters).
2. His daughter did not know much about Jewish practices.

As for these points only the second really qualifies a case. Many Jews were hid by Christians or convents during the war… you may say its a sign of weakness and judge severely… but you should instead pray that you are never put to the same test. I would imagine that your mother, if she was Italian and Jewish, also fleed the nazis… but maybe you have more compassion for her than for the late Zoller.

As for the second reason: The ignorant daughter… You undermine the argument your self when you say that the person who interviewed the family also was unfamiliar with Jewish customs.
The sentence here seems based on the words of a person who was ignorant himself and who may even be alone in his study where no falcification is possible anymore (Unless we seek out the daughter and ask her… we could do that. Do you know her name?) So that argument seems …not very convincing.

It seems to me that you have not stated anything from Zoller’s own biography to back your case (I got the title of the book from a net-encyclopedia) was there nothing in there that you found suspicious? Maybe you could read it again…
As for me… call me naive… but I think that your version of the story is even more “fantastic” than the one I have read and believe in.

 

[HashemEchad]

GraceDK: Where did I say the reporter who interviewed Zoller and his family was “ignorant of Jewish customs”?

Please read what I said again. I said the reporter was “nonJewish”. Do you assume all nonJews are “ignorant of Jewish customs”? I know MANY who are not, including half my family and all of my husband’s family.

I just see now that you had directed an earlier post to me also, which I did not reply to yet. I’ll try to respond in another post.

GraceDK, I studied the Zoller case long before I ever knew you, long before I ever heard of this forum, indeed, long before I was even married 25 years ago! My mother was the first one to tell me about it; as I said, it took place while she was studying for conversion to Judaism, and as an Italian Catholic, it grabbed her interest. She saved some news articles about it, which I still have. So I know perhaps more details of the case that were available at the time it happened; its really very VERY old news to me in my family.

The war situation was central to his apostasy; he probably also felt indebted to the church for letting his hide out there,* instead of being out as a shepherd to his people, which is what he was supposed to be doing as a rabbi.*

Why do you think the survivors of the Roman Jewish community refused to hire him back? He had not apostasized yet, so that couldn’t have been the reason. Spitreful people tend to do spiteful things, as is evidenced by Zoller’s very PUBLIC conversion, in the Vatican. If he truly converted out of sincerity, he would have done it quietly, to avoid offending his people, IF he really cared for them. But instead, he chose the PUBLIC route, just like that Muslim who recently very PUBLICLY converted to Catholicism.

I know that if I were SINCERELY converting to a religion, I would find no need to make it very public and gather lots of attention; I would just do it. When people go that public, its because they want to make a statement to their former faith or their family.

Can we now get back to the topic of this thread? Or start a new topic for this issue, if you want to continue it? I remember that there already are other threads about Zoller (you Catholics like to drag him out everytime you meet a Jew…I guess he’s the last convert from Judaism you feel is worth pointing to, what a shame for you that it was, what, 60 plus years ago?)

 

[GraceDK]

… Or start a new topic for this issue, if you want to continue it? I remember that there already are other threads about Zoller (you Catholics like to drag him out everytime you meet a Jew…I guess he’s the last convert from Judaism you feel is worth pointing to, what a shame for you that it was, what, 60 plus years ago?)

Very charming rhetorics for you I am sure…
You know what I could answer to this in order to make you really annoyed… let’s not go there but try to be civilised…

As for the Jews in Italy… I blame no one for running from the Nazis and hiding… no one at all.

Besides… his conversion happend in the Synagoge … the Jewish community must have accepted him at the time unlike you… otherwise he would not be there.

The thing with Zoller is a question of whom we choose to believe… and what we prefer to believe no less.

Now… yes, indeed… I look forward to your answer for the other points.