Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[GaryTaylor]

The conversation goes as such and according to Catholic theology

There is only one God.
Amen. and of course this isn’t across the board believed.

Monotheists worship one God.
And different Gods and the proposition suggests Catholics are right, many disagree obviously

Muslims profess to worship the God of Abraham
Amen, and its clear their understanding is very different as posted.

Conclusion we worship the same God.
Thus I disagree.

The reasoning in both arguments is clear and explained. Its a flawed argument and frankly I see no sense in continuing. The points are clear, the positions are clear. I expect no-one to change their mind.

The purpose of Pope Paul and his address is clear…

"Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. "

Which is why we shouldn’t be beating them over the head with the past. Its ecumenical dialogue for sure. But that doesn’t mean ignoring “social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom” They cannot control external behavior when internal thinking is corrupt. And they cannot change that without being confronted with the behavior.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is one God

There are many different conceptions of God, and competing claims as to God’s characteristics, aims, and actions, the logic proceeds on the assumption Catholics are correct. This must be compared in attributes of which we see a radical difference and touched upon in this thread.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

The belief is monotheistic “mono” singular. And from there…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism

Profess the God of Abraham through “Ishmael” claiming corrupt OT/NT

“In fact, there is evidence which points to Baal being the high god worshiped by the Meccans!”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ishmael-baal.htm

Conclusion we all worship the same God? I’m sorry its not an analytical fact. Its what we “believe” and what we “believe” they believe. Thus the imposition of our beliefs on others. There is nothing factual in the logic, nor is it universally true by factual evidence. That’s not a factual law, its a complete and unproven “theory”. You have an unproven hypothesis. Its really should be no surprise people find this difficult who are able the critically analysis it.

I encourage all to think this carefully through. I started out contesting only the final point. Fact is all the points can be contested. Prove there is only one God, prove we all view this the same and the attributes are the same, we will begin the debate there.

Now do you see how this sequence proceeds???

 

[GaryTaylor]

In fact the CCC statement never suggests that the God of Christians which is the Holy Trinity and the god of Muslims which is Allah are one and the same. I have to think this is a conclusion reached in places such as this. Show me how this conclusion is drawn in reading the CCC. I think this was an accusation towards Catholics and thus the rhetorical response of the logic we see on this thread.

 

[Tom_Baum]

**This is the thread that doesn’t end, yes it goes on and on, my friend, somebody started debating it not knowing what it was, and they began debating it forever, just because . . . . . . this is the thread that doesn’t end, yes it goes on and on **. . . . . . . . .

P.S If the Muslims (as a group) are not worshipping the one God (who they recognize is the God of Abraham), who are they worshipping?

I would say that the Muslims believe they are “worshipping the one God” but if they are “worshipping” the god of the koran than it is satan.

“Who do you say that I AM?”

However, the True, Living God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Who does the god of the koran say that Jesus is?

Pretty simple, we can ignore what is right in front of our face and pretend it is not there or we can not ignore it, that is the choice that is given to us and as Jesus so simply asked, “Who do you say that I AM?”

About the only argument that could be made is, “Is Jesus God-Incarnate or isn’t He?”

I say that Jesus Is God-Incarnate and I also say that if Jesus wasn’t than there is no Christianity since this one “fact” is what Christianity is all about.

 

[FrDavid96]

In fact the CCC statement never suggests that the God of Christians which is the Holy Trinity and the god of Muslims which is Allah are one and the same. I have to think this is a conclusion reached in places such as this. Show me how this conclusion is drawn in reading the CCC. I think this was an accusation towards Catholics and thus the rhetorical response of the logic we see on this thread.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day…

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has been quoted many times in this thread already.

You’ve made it clear that you have no interest in what the Church has to say.

I’ve quoted Vatican II, the Catechism, and several quotes from the popes–even a quote from Pope Gregory in the 11th century.

You’ve dismissed them all offhand. You keep calling that “the party line.” Well, if you want to call the official teaching of the Church “the party line” I cannot argue with that; it is what it is. But as an individual person, it’s not up to you to decide which teachings of the Church you’re going to accept and which ones you’re going to casually dismiss because they don’t fit your pre-conceptions.

I could go on and on quoting official statements by the Church, and quoting representatives of the Catholic Church at the highest level (like Vatican Dicasteries and Pontifical Commissions, etc. etc.). But there would be no point if you’re not willing to hear them out.

Based on what you have been writing here, I can draw no other conclusion than that you refuse to accept the teaching of the Church unless the Church adopts a position of ignorance, intolerance, and outright hatred for Islam. The Church simply is not going to do that.

 

[Genesis315]

According to the Catholic philosophical and theological tradition, it is right to say that Muslims worship the one God. First, I think there should be noted the difference between worshipping God in Spirit and in truth, offering Him “true worship” being in the grace of the Father or "having Him,’ etc., and worshipping God according to the virtue of religion (which is not a theological virtue, but a natural virtue that falls under justice).

St. Thomas defines this virtue in the Summa as “to show reverence to one God under one aspect, namely, as the first principle of the creation and government of things.” newadvent.org/summa/3081.htm

Can Muslims do this? They certainly worship “God” as First Principle and Supreme Governor of all things, but is it the same God we know? Can one acknowledge the one God without acknowledging the Trinity?

First, it needs to be pointed out that faith is required to acknowledge the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be reasoned out, as St. Vincent Ferrer explains:
St. Vincent Ferrer:

Concerning the use of the intelligence with regard to the Trinity, St. Thomas asks whether the Trinity of the Divine Persons can be known by natural reasoning. He answers: “It is impossible to attain to the knowledge of the Trinity by natural reason.” For man can obtain the knowledge of God by natural reason only from creatures. Now creatures lead us to God as effects do to their cause. Accordingly, by natural reason we can know of God that only which of necessity belongs to him as the principle of all things. Now, the creative power of God is common to the whole Trinity; and hence it belongs to the unity of the essence, and not to the distinction of the Persons. Therefore by natural reason we can know what belongs to the unity of the essence, but not what belongs to the distinction of the Persons. Whoever, then, tries to prove the Trinity of Persons by natural reason, derogates from faith.

Therefore, we can know of God, as the Principle of all things, from reason alone, apart from faith, but we can only know of the Trinity with faith since it is a revealed dogma. The First Vatican Council also defined that God can be known from natural reason alone (Dei Filius, Canon 2.1) and St. Paul says, on account of this, those who do not acknowledge God (but worship idols, are atheists, etc.) are without excuse (Rom. 1:20).

Therefore, one can acknowledge the one God and Creator of all things without having faith and acknowledging the Trinity. But do Muslims do this?

How can we say whether or not we are talking about the same thing? It is the essence of the thing that determines what it is. If we acknowledge the same essence, we acknowledge the same thing. What we can say about the essence of God is that it is the same as His existence. This is summed up as “God is” or, in His own words, “I AM” or “I AM who AM.” (Exo. 3:14)

This concept is formally referred to as the “aesity” of God. Essentially, aesity means self-existence. Aesity explains the metaphysical nature of God as a purely self-existent being that exists in complete actuality. God is not a being that is created by another god; neither does God create Himself into existence. Rather, God has always existed as an unchanging, completely actualized being. God has his Being of himself and to himself such that he is absolute being and the very definition of existence (Acts 17:22-28). Since God’s existence is the same as his essence, it follows that God is existence. (Note: this not to assert pantheism. All other beings participate in his existence on a contingency and thus do not possess the essence of God. Therefore, no other being can be said to be a god or share a part in godhead since they exist solely on a contingency.) This concept is at the root of the definition of all of God’s other perfections because if God is absolute being he must logically contain in Himself all perfections of being.

Since God’s essence is existence, if one acknowledges His essence, one can only acknowledge He who exists–it is impossible to acknowledge a completely actualized being that is not the true God. Similarly, there cannot exist two of such beings, because then neither would contain in Himself all perfections of being.

The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Essence and Existence explains this:
Catholic Encyclopedia:

-If essence and existence were but one thing, we should be unable to conceive the one without conceiving the other. But we are as a fact able to conceive of essence by itself.
-If there be no real distinction between the two, then the essence is identical with the existence. But in God alone are these identical.

Since Muslims do conceive of God as being completely self-actualized, of being non-contingent, as having aesity (al-islam.org/GodAttributes/need.htm ), then they therefore can only be said to acknowledge the one God who exists and it is to Him that they honor and worship as First Principle and Creator according to the virtue of religion.

I would say therefore that we know God; they know of God. This is the difference between affective and speculative knowledge. St. Thomas makes this distinction in his commentary on John to reconcile Biblical passages where Jesus says one must know Him to know the Father with those where people without faith are said to know or worship God (such as those passages cited above). We worship God in Spirit and in Truth and serve Him in supernatural faith, they worship only in a natural way–but they do adore Him, despite their other errors.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day…

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has been quoted many times in this thread already.

You’ve made it clear that you have no interest in what the Church has to say.

I’ve quoted Vatican II, the Catechism, and several quotes from the popes–even a quote from Pope Gregory in the 11th century.

You’ve dismissed them all offhand. You keep calling that “the party line.” Well, if you want to call the official teaching of the Church “the party line” I cannot argue with that; it is what it is. But as an individual person, it’s not up to you to decide which teachings of the Church you’re going to accept and which ones you’re going to casually dismiss because they don’t fit your pre-conceptions.

I could go on and on quoting official statements by the Church, and quoting representatives of the Catholic Church at the highest level (like Vatican Dicasteries and Pontifical Commissions, etc. etc.). But there would be no point if you’re not willing to hear them out.

Based on what you have been writing here, I can draw no other conclusion than that you refuse to accept the teaching of the Church unless the Church adopts a position of ignorance, intolerance, and outright hatred for Islam. The Church simply is not going to do that.

The point is in my last post. The argument seriously needs to be framed differently otherwise the same results will continue to pursue, as they have here and through the years. This isn’t about beating people over the head with the Catechism insisting we worship the same God through a faulty sequence of one true God.

Know this very clearly, your conclusion here is just as false as your original proposition. But thanks for your concern I appreciated it.

I would abandon this argument its never helped and it still does not. For sure you won’t see this logic in the CCC

“In fact the CCC statement never suggests that the God of Christians which is the Holy Trinity and the god of Muslims which is Allah are one and the same. I have to think this is a conclusion reached in places such as this. Show me how this conclusion is drawn in reading the CCC. I think this was an accusation towards Catholics and thus the rhetorical response of the logic we see on this thread.”.

Absolutely nothing explicit and you have to read implicit into it, then the logic proceeds from the faulty implicit argument.

In other words theres nothing wrong with the CCC, its the continuously proposed argument which isn’t found within. The difficulty is as usual with Catholic teaching, there’s no short cut to the correct understanding. Nor is this three sentence logic one.

To suggest muslims worship the same God as Catholics is conjecture. Plain and simple.

Peace

 

[josie_L]

We should view them the same way we view Christians who commit acts of bigotry in the name of Christ.

I wonder, are they worshipping the God of Abraham? What do you think?

Well, I was thinking of the parable of the Sheep and Goats, i.e., Matthew 25 31-46, so in answer to your question, are they worshipping God, Jesus seems to think that these Christians (the goats) never really knew him, i.e., were not properly worshipping him, so I guess the same can be said of Muslim terrorists, although Muslim terrorists regard Allah in such a way He is redefined as something so juxtaposed to how we view God.

P.S. I think that, as a group, Muslims are trying to worship the God of Abraham as well they can considering the falseness of their prophet, and the skewed understanding they have of Him as a result.

 

[GaryTaylor]

According to the Catholic philosophical and theological tradition, it is right to say that Muslims worship the one God. First, I think there should be noted the difference between worshipping God in Spirit and in truth, offering Him “true worship” being in the grace of the Father or "having Him,’ etc., and worshipping God according to the virtue of religion (which is not a theological virtue, but a natural virtue that falls under justice).

St. Thomas defines this virtue in the Summa as “to show reverence to one God under one aspect, namely, as the first principle of the creation and government of things.” newadvent.org/summa/3081.htm

Can Muslims do this? They certainly worship “God” as First Principle and Supreme Governor of all things, but is it the same God we know? Can one acknowledge the one God without acknowledging the Trinity?

First, it needs to be pointed out that faith is required to acknowledge the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be reasoned out, as St. Vincent Ferrer explains:

Therefore, we can know of God, as the Principle of all things, from reason alone, apart from faith, but we can only know of the Trinity with faith since it is a revealed dogma. The First Vatican Council also defined that God can be known from natural reason alone (Dei Filius, Canon 2.1) and St. Paul says, on account of this, those who do not acknowledge God (but worship idols, are atheists, etc.) are without excuse (Rom. 1:20).

Therefore, one can acknowledge the one God and Creator of all things without having faith and acknowledging the Trinity. But do Muslims do this?

How can we say whether or not we are talking about the same thing? It is the essence of the thing that determines what it is. If we acknowledge the same essence, we acknowledge the same thing. What we can say about the essence of God is that it is the same as His existence. This is summed up as “God is” or, in His own words, “I AM” or “I AM who AM.” (Exo. 3:14)

This concept is formally referred to as the “aesity” of God. Essentially, aesity means self-existence. Aesity explains the metaphysical nature of God as a purely self-existent being that exists in complete actuality. God is not a being that is created by another god; neither does God create Himself into existence. Rather, God has always existed as an unchanging, completely actualized being. God has his Being of himself and to himself such that he is absolute being and the very definition of existence (Acts 17:22-28). Since God’s existence is the same as his essence, it follows that God is existence. (Note: this not to assert pantheism. All other beings participate in his existence on a contingency and thus do not possess the essence of God. Therefore, no other being can be said to be a god or share a part in godhead since they exist solely on a contingency.) This concept is at the root of the definition of all of God’s other perfections because if God is absolute being he must logically contain in Himself all perfections of being.

Since God’s essence is existence, if one acknowledges His essence, one can only acknowledge He who exists–it is impossible to acknowledge a completely actualized being that is not the true God. Similarly, there cannot exist two of such beings, because then neither would contain in Himself all perfections of being.

The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Essence and Existence explains this:

Since Muslims do conceive of God as being completely self-actualized, of being non-contingent, as having aesity (al-islam.org/GodAttributes/need.htm ), then they therefore can only be said to acknowledge the one God who exists and it is to Him that they honor and worship as First Principle and Creator according to the virtue of religion.

I would say therefore that we know God; they know of God. This is the difference between affective and speculative knowledge. St. Thomas makes this distinction in his commentary on John to reconcile Biblical passages where Jesus says one must know Him to know the Father with those where people without faith are said to know or worship God (such as those passages cited above). We worship God in Spirit and in Truth and serve Him in supernatural faith, they worship only in a natural way–but they do adore Him, despite their other errors.

Closer, in other words we have the classic logic of true and false which are both truths, this is the position proposed by the example in the thread. Basic law of non contradiction or the excluded middle which is the unknown.

We added the third (and to great alarm and shock ) which is the “unknown” or the concept of dialetheism is added in which some statements can be both true and false simultaneously, or may be true and false at different times. This is much more accurate.

Nevertheless I agree. This is a difficult conversation, we need to spend more time explaining 841.

 

[tonyfish58]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day…

FrDavid96 - This is Great

I can assure you that the Baha’is also Worship this God, the Baha’i Writings are very clear on this aspect of Faith. The Only difference is that we have accepted Baha’u’llah’s message from that One and Only God in the Station of the “Promised One” to be “Mankind’s judge on the last day”.

I would ask, with this base can we not all Love One another and work towards unity, despite a few doctrinal differences

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96 - This is Great

I can assure you that the Baha’is also Worship this God, the Baha’i Writings are very clear on this aspect of Faith. The Only difference is that we have accepted Baha’u’llah’s message from that One and Only God in the Station of the “Promised One” to be “Mankind’s judge on the last day”.

I would ask, with this base can we not all Love One another and work towards unity, despite a few doctrinal differences

God Bless and Regards Tony

Gee Tony, I’m not sure I should even be responding to you because I’m getting an education here that since I’m a Christian, I’m supposed to treat people like you with bigotry, intolerance, and hatred, empowered by a very hefty dose of ignorance.

I wish you g’day!

But I’m only saying that because I’m a slow learner. The good Christians here are trying to teach me those values so that I can respond more appropriately to you by hurling insults at you and your religion, just like I’m supposed to do toward the Moslems.

But please don’t tell anyone, or someone might report my lack of malevolence to the Vatican, and then I’d be in real trouble.

 

[Servant19]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day…

The question I have is this:

Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church infallible teaching , containing the fullness of Truth?

The reason I ask is for the following reasons:

1. It is unequivically stated in the Catechism that Muslims worship and “adore the one, merciful God”
2. It is Catholic teaching that Jesus is God.
3. Muslims do not worship Jesus, they worship Him that sent Jesus, Allah, the Father, NOT the Son

Points 2 and 3 do not equal point 1.

So either, Jesus is not God, or the Catechism is mistaken in saying that Muslims worship Jesus, they do not …

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Gee Tony, I’m not sure I should even be responding to you because I’m getting an education here that since I’m a Christian, I’m supposed to treat people like you with bigotry, intolerance, and hatred, empowered by a very hefty dose of ignorance.

I wish you g’day!

But I’m only saying that because I’m a slow learner. The good Christians here are trying to teach me those values so that I can respond more appropriately to you by hurling insults at you and your religion, just like I’m supposed to do toward the Moslems.

But please don’t tell anyone, or someone might report my lack of malevolence to the Vatican, and then I’d be in real trouble.

Unusual response to a general statement on Unity that was not an accusation

May be it was worded wrong, you could have asked for clarification!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[FrDavid96]

Unusual response to a general statement on Unity that was not an accusation

May be it was worded wrong, you could have asked for clarification!

God Bless and Regards Tony

It was sarcasm (and not toward you, friend).

G’day!

 

[GaryTaylor]

We all acknowledge the Creator for we are all from one stock in Adam and Eve… How we acknowledge the Creator and worship the Creator is another story to which I injected the unknown. For the Creator is the Second Person Trinity in Catholicism.

I don’t think this is unfair.

 

[tonyfish58]

It was sarcasm (and not toward you, friend).

G’day!

Well G’day! Mate right back at you

Cobber an invite if you are Down Under, I will put another Shrimp on the Barbie! Welcome any time

God Bless & Regards Tony

 

[FrDavid96]

The question I have is this:
Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church infallible teaching , containing the fullness of Truth?
The reason I ask is for the following reasons:

1. It is unequivically stated in the Catechism that Muslims worship and “adore the one, merciful God”
2. It is Catholic teaching that Jesus is God.
3. Muslims do not worship Jesus, they worship Him that sent Jesus, Allah, the Father, NOT the Son
   Points 2 and 3 do not equal point 1.
   So either, Jesus is not God, or the Catechism is mistaken in saying that Muslims worship Jesus, they do not …
   .

It has to do with the theology of the Trinity.

For a Christian, the Father and Son (and yes, Holy Spirit) are One God, so belief in one necessarily means belief in the other, even if the believer in the Father is unaware of the Son, or does not acknowledge that He is God.

That’s why the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate says :
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet…
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
The key words are “though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God.” In other words, they don’t “acknowledge” that He is God, but that doesn’t change the fact that He is.

 

[FrDavid96]

Well G’day! Mate right back at you

Cobber an invite if you are Down Under, I will put another Shrimp on the Barbie! Welcome any time

God Bless & Regards Tony

Thanks.

Shrimp sounds like a good way to collaborate by sharing some cultural values. Although here in the US, we usually put the shrimp on a grill and cook them instead of putting one on a Barbie doll, but hey, I’ll try it if you say it’s good.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

 

[tonyfish58]

It has to do with the theology of the Trinity.

For a Christian, the Father and Son (and yes, Holy Spirit) are One God, so belief in one necessarily means belief in the other, even if the believer in the Father is unaware of the Son, or does not acknowledge that He is God.

That’s why the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate says :
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet…
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
The key words are “though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God.” In other words, they don’t “acknowledge” that He is God, but that doesn’t change the fact that He is.

That is a good explanation, but I would like to make a comment on one small aspect?

“The key words are “though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God.” In other words, they don’t “acknowledge” that He is God, but that doesn’t change the fact that He is”.

Consider “Fact” indicates a matter under discussion is deemed to be true or correct. If we say something is seen as Fact, it may only be Fact for the specific Belief and Faith. Others may not see it as “Fact”.

Thus this “Fact” could be and has been subject to Change, In “Fact” people do prove that this is the case!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Vouthon]

The question I have is this:

Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church infallible teaching , containing the fullness of Truth?

The Catechism is a “sure norm” for our faith, according to Blessed John Paul II.

In the section that you quoted, the Catechism references the highest authority in the church: an ecumenical council,

Paragraph 16 of The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) of the Second Vatican Council reads, in part:

“…In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind…”

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

The Catechism is therefore simply “lifting” straight from the council Fathers. This is a DOGMATIC constitution.

The reference in turn for this paragraph of the Vatican II document is: Cf St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania.

“…This good action was inspired in your heart by God, the Creator of all things, without whom we can neither do nor think any good thing. He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, ‘He is our peace who hath made both one.’ This good action was inspired in your heart by God…This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities . . .] For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth…”

- Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076