Do Protestants Really Hate Catholicism?

[Jerry_Marino]

Please take a look at Matthew 25:31-46 and tell me what it says about ‘faith alone’ being all that is required for salvation.

ferde my friend, what does it say about faith? nothing.

v.37 says Then the righteous will answer Him…

v. 46 says …but the righteous to eternal life.

so who is righteous?

are you implying that one who does these works that Jesus states (feeding, drink, clothing, sheltering visiting) is righteous?

please don’t take my word for it but look into the Word of God about faith. let’s look at the most famous verse that is always displayed on t.v. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

first things first, God loved so much that he gave us his son, so what did we do to earn such a gift?

secondly, the promise not from me but from God himself, now God does not change his word so i stand on his promise which is whoever believes in him (the Son) shall not perish but have eternal life.

so now referring back to the verses above in matthew 25:31-46 the sheep are the righteous and the goats are not, the sheep have an inheritance which is eternal life and the goats, punishment.

so how can one become righteous in the site of God?

look at what is says about our righteous acts in Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf and like the wind our sins sweep us away,

we are sinful people so how can i a sinful man be held righteous in the site of the LORD?

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness

wow, abram simply by believing in the promise from God, God credited to abram as righteousness.

people read hebrews 11 it’s all about faith.

so far on the promises of God, i have not found that works is included in the salvation equation, which leaves me to believe that simply believing God on his Word we are credited as righteousness. there are so many examples in the Bible.

the last one i will leave you with is found in one of the catholics favorite chapters of the new testament i believe John 6:28-29. this dialogue takes place after Jesus explains to them about food that endures eternal life and i believe that is what we are talking about here, salvation by faith. here are the verses:
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

oh thank God for how simple he has made it for us!

Hebrews 11:6 And without FAITH it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

now you might say where do works come in well let me tell you or better yet let God tell you.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God perpared in advance for us to do.

**James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. **

oh well i stand on the promise of God.

believe. that is where it starts, my friend.

steve-o i ain’t forgot about you love in Christ my friends

God bless.

 

[DavidCatechumen]

Then not recieving holy communion means you still will go to heaven? If so then why can’t all recieve? God Bless Nancy

I can’t put words in Bellus’s mouth, but I can guess the response. Most Protestants either don’t recognize the Sacraments at all, or only see them as ordinances which are symbolic. Of course, they have to deal with John chapter 6.

The “standard” Protestant response to John chapter 6 is to cite verse 63:

It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

“The flesh is useless,” they say, therefore there is no Real Presence in the Eucharist, and it does not convey grace.

But WHOSE flesh is useless?

They have to answer “Jesus” to that question, or they lose the argument.

If Jesus’s flesh was of no avail, then He didn’t die for your sins, did He? Whoops, you just denied the Atonement! (Besides that, if you back up a verse, you’ll see that He is no longer talking about the Eucharist, but rather, about faith.)

I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins. So that’s why I became Catholic.

When Our Lord said “This is My body,” He MEANT what He said. Believe in miracles!

 

[SteveGC]

Ok. Before this faith/works thing gets outta hand, let’s make it clear what the real debate is. The debate isn’t about faith alone, nor works alone. It’s not even about where the faith and works come from. It’s about free will and repentence.

Let’s begin…

It’s Grace alone that does the actual saving. Christ’s atoning death made it sufficient for everyone.

But sufficiency is not the same as efficiency…which is to say we have our part in God’s plan. We must cooperate…we must make an ascent of our will.

This comes in 2 parts…belief and obedience.

Belief, or faith, is itself also a gift from God, through grace.

Likewise, obedience is a gift from God, through grace. We learn through grace the good works God has prepared for us beforehand.

Now here’s where we start to differ. Catholics learn that faith is a virtue we must consistently nurture, through grace (sacraments), lest we fall from it. Likewise, we must consistently cooperate, through our free will, with these revealed acts of charity, mercy, etc. and at the same time, turn from sin, and/or confess and repent of sin as it occurs throughout our lives. Again, strengthening our gift of faith, through grace (sacraments) allows us to remain successful in our good works (obedience), in our examination of conscience, and hence, in our contrite repentence of sins.

Many non-Catholics learn that faith is a one-time event, which is why many of them have the date memorized when they “gave their life to Christ”, because there is no need for future proclamations of faith (although many do continue to nurture it and re-commit in faith). Further, cooperation with revealed good acts is automatic, else they were not genuine in their original proclamation of faith. They believe the will is automatically and permanently aligned to do good works. If there is recognized sin in their lives, this gets tricky. They must ascertain whether or not the sin is of enough graveness to warrant a reconsideration of their original proclamation of faith, whether it was genuine, or if the sin was nominal enough to not worry about, since they are once saved, always saved. This approach to salvation not only promotes easy believism, but also is self-refuting of OSAS, for if you cannot assure yourselves in the here and now that in the future, a sin you commit may reveal the lack of genuine faith in your heart, you therefore cannot have absolute assurance of your salvation, only perhaps a moral assurance, such as Catholics have.

God Bless

 

[DavidCatechumen]

John 3:16 …
first things first, God loved so much that he gave us his son, so what did we do to earn such a gift?

Absolutely nothing, except to repent and be baptized. Acts 2:38

secondly, the promise not from me but from God himself, now God does not change his word so i stand on his promise which is whoever believes in him (the Son) shall not perish but have eternal life.

It is a promise, and God does not go back on His promises, but the promise is an offer which you must accept in order to be saved. How? Repent and be baptized. Acts 2:38 (again)

Remember that the Bible and the entire Bible, properly interpreted, is the infallible Word of God. God cannot contradict Himself, and so John 3:16 does not make the rest of the New Testament null and void. Cherry-picking verses makes for great sermons but bad teaching.

so now referring back to the verses above in matthew 25:31-46 the sheep are the righteous and the goats are not, the sheep have an inheritance which is eternal life and the goats, punishment.

Yup. Salvation is not by faith alone. Not everyone who proclaims Jesus as Lord will be saved. Matthew 7:21. To truly call on the Lord (e.g. Acts 2:21) you must receive the Spirit (read all of Acts 2). How do you receive the Spirit? Baptism and repentance… Acts 2:38 again.

so how can one become righteous in the site of God?

Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus, like He said to do. Luke 9:23

look at what is says about our righteous acts in Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf and like the wind our sins sweep us away,

That is why salvation is not by works alone, but by grace alone. The Sacraments are the main way God gives grace to man, and are essential to salvation. Baptism saves you. 1 Peter 3:21 The other Sacraments strengthen and heal you by divine grace.

we are sinful people so how can i a sinful man be held righteous in the site of the LORD?

Notice that all of your cites are to the Old Testament, the old law of Moses. Jesus, as Lord, changed the rules. He made it possible for us to be justified in his New Law. Acts 13:39

Hebrews 11:6 And without FAITH it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

now you might say where do works come in well let me tell you or better yet let God tell you.

Faith without works is dead, unfortunately. James 2:17

We are expected to work out our faith through suffering as God guides us by His grace through the Sacraments. Phil. 2:12.

oh well i stand on the promise of God.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Why do you state this in a way to suggest that it’s any different for us Catholics? We’ll shout it louder**…“Only One Way…JESUS CHRIST!!!”. **Or, did you not realize that Catholics are all about Christ? Perhaps you should dig into our background and teachings a bit more, hm? And while we don’t share in your “absolute” assurance mentality, we do have a “moral” assurance. We can have trust in our salvation if we are truly picking up our crosses, following Him, and His Church.

Because we love Christ, desire to worship Him as He desires, and because we are not presumptuous regarding our salvation. You don’t think that only the “absolutely assuredly saved” people go to church, do you?

to answer your first question due to a post by one of my dear friends questioned on how can be sure of my salvation and i was not shouting, i don’t need to dig into the background or teachings of the catholic church.

you have misread my post about going to church but i will leave at that too bad you don’t share my “absolute assurance mentality” cause Jesus came to give us life through his death and by believing that was his purpose in life (to die) and ressurection by the power of God, he conquered over death and through him we (believers) also share in the victory, that is our hope. now if there is something you or others might want to add as to what Jesus did on the cross and deminish.

you state in your post that ‘We can have trust in our salvation if we are truly picking up our crosses, following Him, and His Church.’ by this statement seems to me you are basing your salvation on what you can do by picking your cross.

i understand the concept of picking up our cross and this is my understanding of my cross: i died to my sinful self and daily i walk denying myself and letting the Holy Spirit teach me.

this conversation along with others on this thread has taken a turn, i don’t hate you that is why i write on here speaking of Christ and salvation.

Assurance: 1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

so while you trust in your salvation, i’ll trust in God’s and while you have moral assurance, i know that i have eternal life. it is not something that i made up, i just trust in the Word of God.

God bless you

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Absolutely nothing, except to repent and be baptized. Acts 2:38

It is a promise, and God does not go back on His promises, but the promise is an offer which you must accept in order to be saved. How? Repent and be baptized. Acts 2:38 (again)

Remember that the Bible and the entire Bible, properly interpreted, is the infallible Word of God. God cannot contradict Himself, and so John 3:16 does not make the rest of the New Testament null and void. Cherry-picking verses makes for great sermons but bad teaching.

Yup. Salvation is not by faith alone. Not everyone who proclaims Jesus as Lord will be saved. Matthew 7:21. To truly call on the Lord (e.g. Acts 2:21) you must receive the Spirit (read all of Acts 2). How do you receive the Spirit? Baptism and repentance… Acts 2:38 again.

Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus, like He said to do. Luke 9:23

That is why salvation is not by works alone, but by grace alone. The Sacraments are the main way God gives grace to man, and are essential to salvation. Baptism saves you. 1 Peter 3:21 The other Sacraments strengthen and heal you by divine grace.

Notice that all of your cites are to the Old Testament, the old law of Moses. Jesus, as Lord, changed the rules. He made it possible for us to be justified in his New Law. Acts 13:39

Faith without works is dead, unfortunately. James 2:17

We are expected to work out our faith through suffering as God guides us by His grace through the Sacraments. Phil. 2:12.

God does not change, my friend the old testament i quoted was not of moses but of the prophet isaiah and by the way the old testament points towards Christ. you misquoted phillipians 2:12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

i added verse 13 just so the readers who may not pick up there Bibles, God is the one who works in us through his Spirit.

you tell about repentance funny cause i’ve already stated that prior but who is right cause that is what you are striving for here.

oh i did refer to james chapter 2 and i understand what works are you just overlooked that i am sure, i love you man.

God bless

 

[wlychan64]

HOw do you know that protestants do not hate Catholic Church.? As I really knew, Mormonism, born again, seventh day adventist, etc are called protestants. They were chorus, shouted and demanded regarding the false teachings of the Catholic Church. Yes, Catholic And protestants are calling the same God, but differ in terms of their teachings. By the way, what is your affiliation? Don’t ashame to tell here about your affiliation.
What kind of Christian denomination where you belong? And let us verify your church affiliation if it is true Church which is founded by Jesus Christ according to the Bible or any reliable historical basis.

Thanks.

Hi, there is nothing for me to hide from you. I attend the Methodist Church.

Having said that, let me be absolutely honest with you now, I do not need anyone on this forum to verify if my church is a true Church or not. I know my church well enough. Thank you very much.

I expect more respect from other members on this forum even though some people may take the view that only the Roman Catholic Church is the only ‘true’ and ‘right’ church on earth.

I am honestly annoyed now

wlychan64

 

[wlychan64]

You are welcome in any Catholic church as long as you don’t present yourself to receive Holy Communion, which is reserved for Catholics in a state of grace only.

God bless you on your way.

Thank you for your reply. Why is it reserved for Catholics please?

 

[wlychan64]

Would that lack of empty seats were a problem!

Could you share what it is you enjoy about the mass? I love the holy mass. I go everyday.

Thank you for the reply.

There is a very close interaction between the priest and the Catholic. Everyone must take part all through the mass. I feel I am very close to Jesus in the mass. The joy and the feeling of comfort are very encouraging.

I cannot afford to attend the mass everyday but once a week is a MUST now.

wlychan64

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Thank you for your reply. Why is [Holy Communion] reserved for Catholics please?

Because Protestant and Catholic Theology differ on what we believe the Eucharist is. We are not in “communion” about Holy Communion.

I don’t know what the Methodist understanding is, but don’t the Lutherans believe Christ is only present when the people are assembled? For Catholics, the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ; once the host is consecrated, Christ’s bodily presence remains. If you don’t believe that, then you shouldn’t want to receive it until you have understanding. There is a scripture that discusses the consequences of receiving “unworthily” but I trust someone else to find it for me. It’s 3:40am where I am and I’m going to bed.

Even if all Protestants really don’t hate Catholicism, there’s enough evidence on this thread that Protestants and Catholics still like a good brawl. I have droplets of blood on my shoe just from reading along.

 

[wlychan64]

Because Protestant and Catholic Theology differ on what we believe the Eucharist is. We are not in “communion” about Holy Communion.

I don’t know what the Methodist understanding is, but don’t the Lutherans believe Christ is only present when the people are assembled? For Catholics, the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ; once the host is consecrated, Christ’s bodily presence remains. If you don’t believe that, then you shouldn’t want to receive it until you have understanding. There is a scripture that discusses the consequences of receiving “unworthily” but I trust someone else to find it for me. It’s 3:40am where I am and I’m going to bed.

Even if all Protestants really don’t hate Catholicism, there’s enough evidence on this thread that Protestants and Catholics still like a good brawl. I have droplets of blood on my shoe just from reading along.

Dear sir/madam,

I am grateful to your answer and enlightening.
I pray hard that our brothers and sisters can be reunited soon in celebrating our Lord Jesus Christ

wlychan64

 

[Black_Dog]

As a child I used to throw stones at Catholics but then we all did…it was almost a national sport. I didnt know anything about Catholics other than that they were different and scary

 

[wlychan64]

As a child I used to throw stones at Catholics but then we all did…it was almost a national sport. I didnt know anything about Catholics other than that they were different and scary

Oh really? this is a bit worrying. Is it in Northern Ireland?
Anyway, it is history now.

 

[grannymh]

Dear sir/madam,

I am grateful to your answer and enlightening.
I pray hard that our brothers and sisters can be reunited soon in celebrating our Lord Jesus Christ

wlychan64

And I am praying that you will be united with our Lord Jesus Christ in a very personal way.

The following website will give you a wonderful pastoral letter on the Holy Eucharist and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Please read it slowly in sections. Think about it. Pray about it. Let our Lord Jesus Christ speak to you.


Please go to the left column and click “Meet Bishop Doran.” Then click Bishop Doran’s “Pastoral Letter on the Eucharist”, 1997.

Or try

If you have any questions, please ask me.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings belong at the foot of Jesus on the cross.

 

[Allymom]

Thank you for your reply. Why is it reserved for Catholics please?

A. To protect them from Judgment.

1 Corinthians 11: 27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be
guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Since, Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist as Catholics do, they do not discern or recognize that Jesus’ body is present under the appearance of bread and wine. The Church would be allowing them to eat and drink judgment upon themselves. The prohibition is actually very charitable but, unfortunately, it is usually seen as a rejection.

Evidence of this interpretation of this passage is supported by St. Justin the Martyr :

“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true…”
-Justin Martyr -FIRST APOLOGY, 66,20–(150 A.D.)
This is off The Black Cordelias. It is a short simple explanation. Don’t be offended! I was in the Methodist Church for 25 years and my mom is a Methodist Pastor…
Hope this helps to understand!

 

[Allymom]

And I am praying that you will be united with our Lord Jesus Christ in a very personal way.

The following website will give you a wonderful pastoral letter on the Holy Eucharist and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Please read it slowly in sections. Think about it. Pray about it. Let our Lord Jesus Christ speak to you.


Please go to the left column and click “Meet Bishop Doran.” Then click Bishop Doran’s “Pastoral Letter on the Eucharist”, 1997.

Or try

If you have any questions, please ask me.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings belong at the foot of Jesus on the cross.

Thanks! Very Sweet Response!:thumbsup:You give cradle catholics a great name!!!

God bless you and all who are here! Happy Weekend!:extrahappy:

 

[SteveGC]

to answer your first question due to a post by one of my dear friends questioned on how can be sure of my salvation and i was not shouting, i don’t need to dig into the background or teachings of the catholic church.

My apologies. I had just come off of another post where I was addressing this same issue, and the poster was suggesting that Catholics did not follow Christ. So when I saw yours, I was responding as if the same claim was being made. Normally I’m very good at backtracking to see why someone has posted as they have. Again my apologies.

too bad you don’t share my “absolute assurance mentality” cause Jesus came to give us life through his death and by believing that was his purpose in life (to die) and ressurection by the power of God, he conquered over death and through him we (believers) also share in the victory, that is our hope. now if there is something you or others might want to add as to what Jesus did on the cross and deminish.

We don’t share in your “absolute assurance”, but this has nothing to do with the reasons you state here. We believe all of that. We don’t deny Jesus’ atoning death, and the subsequent unmerited gift of salvation for all. What we say, however, is that although the gift is free, we have to accept it and cooperate with it throughout our lives. The key here is “throughout our lives”. This is why we have a “moral” assurance, as opposed to an “absolute” one. Moral, meaning a recognition that we are eternally secure if we perservere in faith and cooperation with God’s will throughout our lives, guided by His Church. If you want, reread my post #181 for another approach to it.

It was interesting to note your use of the word “hope”. You explained why you’re absolutely assured, and finished off by saying, “that is our hope”. We believe this is a correct way to look at things, but it was interesting for you to say… because “hope” refutes “absolute assurance”. In other words, if you are absolutely sure, what need is there of hope?

God Bless

 

[qui_est_ce]

Thank you for the reply.

You are welcome!

There is a very close interaction between the priest and the Catholic. **Everyone must take part all through the mass. **

Catholics take seriously that we must PARTICIPATE in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:24

***Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, ***

(I hate to cherry pick, but this verse sums up so many of seeming contradictions in the Bible).
The mass on the Sacrifice made present. God is outside of time and space.

I feel I am very close to Jesus in the mass.

That is because Jesus is truly present, body, blood, soul, and divinity:thumbsup:]

The joy and the feeling of comfort are very encouraging.

Could it be the Communion of Saints? At every mass every saint is present.

I cannot afford to attend the mass everyday but once a week is a MUST now.

wlychan64

It COSTS nothing except to get out of bed earlier. Remember Jesus often rose before dawn to go to a deserted place to pray. Unless you live in the wild, there is an early morning mass in a parish near you.

Thank you for your reply. Why is it reserved for Catholics please?

I Corinthians 10:16
***The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? ***
and
I Corinthians 11:23-30
***23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
28
A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29 *For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment 14 on himself. 30
That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

The Miracle at Lanciano is just one of many:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

This week-end, a parish near me will have a presentation of Eucharistic Miracles throughout history. I can’t wait to go!

God bless you on your journey.

 

[Bellus]

**HOPE:

1: to cherish a desire with anticipation
trust
transitive verb
1: to desire with expectation of obtainment
2: to expect with confidence : trust**

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Thank you for your reply. Why is it reserved for Catholics please?

As has been pointed out in a prior message, Paul’s injunction, which I paraphrase, says if you receive the Body and Blood of the Lord unworthily, you have profaned the Lord Himself. That is a very serious sin and one I encourage you to avoid.

The Catholic Church is certain that the person of Jesus is fully present, body, blood, soul and divinity, in the Eucharist. The doctrine of the Church states that worthy reception of the Eucharist must include, among other things, a belief in the presence of Jesus in the Sacrament in exactly the way the Church believes it! Otherwise you commit a sacrilige.