Do Women Belong to Their Fathers Until They Get Married?

[Margaret_Ann]

What about a woman who never married? It’s not uncommon. I don’t mean religious… just an unmarried woman. …plus, her dad is going to die at some point.

That’s me. My dad passed away 10+ years ago but I still lived with my mom until her death last year.

While Mom was living I took care of her and we did almost everything together - going to church, shopping, dining out. I was afraid to leave Mom by herself especially the last 2.5 years. When I went to SingCon 2019 last September, I had friends & neighbors check in on her and called her every day I was there.

My mom was a very shy person (Dad was always sociable. However, she was probably the most fearless woman on earth. Nothing fazed her. Bad things could happen and she’d say: “They’ll have to answer to God.” The only thing that really upset her was seeing children on TV suffer and die. Then she’d cry. (The Gosnell incident was particularly horrifying for both of us.)

Now that Mom is gone, there are many times that I feel lonely but know I’m not alone. My Guardian Angel has helped me countless times.

I’m living on my own now. However, if I have a problem, I usually talk with my friends or my pastor. My boss has been a big help too.

Does this help answer your questions?

 

[Sarcelle]

Mainstream Protestants and most Evangelicals do not believe in this either.

The Christian Reconstructionists are the ones that do and they are a fringe group.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

This is post #94 by @(name removed by moderator):

Do Women Belong to Their Fathers Until They Get Married? - #94

Specifically, the boldface quotes in the Roman Catechism.

 

[SerraSemper]

Parents- fathers AND mothers have power and authority of their MINOR children. Husbands have authority over their wives and children. Wives have a certain authority over husband, particularly in sanctifying the husband. Wives have authority over children.

Those who have reached their majority (see canon law for the age of majority), unless they are mentally incapacitated with a low IQ are no longer under the authority of their parents. Concretely, this means they no longer have an obligation to obey them. The obligation to honor them remains.

This is not a subject of debate in theology because no serious Catholic theologian would maintain that a person who has reached their majority - male or female - is somehow under the authority of parents, but certain cultures, fringe groups and Protestant movements like to distort the role of man. It falls under the curse of Adam and Eve in which original sin tempts the man to dominate rather than respect.

The whole concept of majority would be pointless if obedience to parents does not fall away when the child becomes an adult. It is disingenuous of people to point to superiors, bishops, or even married couples when the question is about SINGLE persons who have attained their majority.

Also, nobody is the property of another person. A child might owe obedience by law to parents but the parents do not “own” the child. Adults must marry out of free choice and their parents are obligated by law to not interfere in this freedom. The one spouse gives the right to the use of his/her body to the other and receives mastery of the use of that other’s body in return. But no parent can give a child’s body or use of it to someone else.

I just have a quick question about something I’ve heard lots of Protestants say-- that a women belongs to her father until she gets married, and then she belongs to her husband. I’ve always thought this was kind of weird, because not all women choose to get married, and according to their logic a 50 year-old unmarried women would still “belong” to her father, which sounds kind of crazy to me. do catholics believe this or is it mostly a Protestant thing?

 

[Bithynian]

I was very curious to see the development of the phrase" who gives this woman".

The Sarum and York Manuals (that is, the primary liturgical books of the Roman Rite in Salisbury and York prior to the Reformation) has the following:

Deinde sacerdos - who gyves me this wyfe? Deinde detur faemina a patre suo vel ab amicis eius

Next the priest - who gives me this wife? Next the woman is given by her father or his friends.

With that in mind, I do feel that ‘giving a wife’ is an idiom. The same such idiom exists in Classical Hebrew, where there was not one particular verb for marrying. Both לקח laqach or נשא nasah have the same general of meaning of ‘to take, carry’ and likewise, נתן natan ‘to give’ was used of joining someone in matrimony.

In Greek, no circumlocutions exist as the language has particular verbs for getting hitched γαμεῖν gamein and making someone get hitched γαμεῖσθαι gameisthai or γαμίζειν gamizein. Likewise, Latin uses the verb maritere to refer to both. Sometimes it does use a circumlocution, I think in imitation of the Hebrew idiom, in matrimonio iungere ‘to join in matrimony’ (although this does not necessarily refer to an officiant, and can be said of either the husband or wife).

 

[Lea101]

it means that a Christian father is to be constantly praying for and by example, guiding his daughters, as to form them to attain heaven. When they become adults and leave the family home, whether to move out on their own, get married, whatever, the father is still bound to pray and guide them by his example of being a good Christian in his words, actions, and deeds

This sounds like a job for parents to do so for both sons and daughters, married or single.

 

[Sarcelle]

All these dubious so called Church teaching that seem to crop up on a regular basis on this forum, seem to be originating from a Father Ripperger.

 

[Peeps]

All right, let’s go back to the beginning.

Thank you for your explanation.

You did see the place in my post where I said that my father-in-law grew up in a Pentecostal church? Not a Catholic church.

I believe that many Christians, including Catholic Christians, have gotten caught up in this “parental authority” teaching because of the alarming societal developments that have decimated family life.

“Parental Authority” is a philosophy/teaching that promise a restoration of this traditional family structure that produces God-fearing, hard-working, well-adjusted, healthy individuals and societies.

One example of this kind of teaching was the idea of “courtship/marriage” that came out in the 1980s, mainly because of a book by a teenager named Joshua Harris who had just broken up with his girlfried (I believe he was 17 at the time). Unfortunately, his wacka-doo teachings and book were endorsed at the time by Dr. James Dobson–one of the few mistakes that Dr. Dobson ever made, but again–when we see the traditional family structure sliding down into the dungheap, it makes us panic and grasp at anything that seems like it might help the family.

I was a young mother at the time with two daughters, and had lots of friends with children and teens. We were part of a large and vibrant Evangelical Protestant church. Many of my friends bought into Harris’ book and “courtship marriage” hook/line/and sinker. Their daughters were not allowed to date, and the teens themselves professed confidence in their parents to choose their mate for them–this was in the United States, in the SOUTH of all places!!

The fact that Dr. Dobson, “the Protestant Pope” at the time, had allowed Harris to be a guest on his show cemented the deal for many Protestants.

My husband and I were appalled. But at the time, we didn’t dare speak up, or our daughters would have been excluded from their friends’ homes.

We have now lived long enough to see the dreadful consequences of this dangerous “Parental Authority” theory. Josh Harris himself has apologized and denounced his own book!

It is my theory that the OP has been influenced by all of this, perhaps because of a friend or relative, possibly a Protestant, who promoted some of these extreme theories regarding parental authority to the OP. With so many non-denominational “churches” around, there is nothing to put a check on Evangelical teachings, no “denominational head” or “consistory” or “convention” or “conference” that can step in and stop a pastor from teaching heresy or unproven theories about human behavior.

Again, the motives are good–we see the family going down in the U.S., and so much anti-family media and politics, and we grasp at any teaching that seems to promise a restoration of family values and structure. I’m personally convinced that we are probably too late unless the Lord intervenes with a spiritual revival, which hopefully will involve a restoration of the Catholic Church as THE Church of Jesus Christ. It’s kind of hard to have strong family units when the Family of God, His Church, is split.

 

[Elizabeth3]

do catholics believe this or is it mostly a Protestant thing?

Catholics do not believe this. I think some Protestant groups try to push this idea, for example the Botkin sisters.

This is a good read…

The Authority of Women | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[redcatholic]

This thread is s very interesting. I recently started a thread asking how much authority do forum members give a parish priest. Since “go ask your priest” is a common answer on here. Mostly, with a few exceptions, posters willingly give incredible amounts of authority to a priest. A priest Even has authority or at least some power over sexual and marriage issues. But yet, the idea that a father, a parent, or a spouse has Spiritual authority here in this case is a repugnant and revolting idea to some. Fascinating! A priest who barely knows you has authority that people are offended that a father or husband might have! Confused!

 

[Sarcelle]

I think some Protestant groups try to push this idea, for example the Botkin sisters.

Are any of the Botkin sisters married?

Haven’t seen anything new on their blog. Latest post was from 2018.

What happens to them when Daddy dies and they haven’t still married? Who will support them without a father or husband?

 

[Gorgias]

It really isn’t. There’s no part of the liturgy in which the father gives away his daughter to her husband-to-be.

Now… if by “recently”, you mean “the 15th century A.D.”, then sure. Historically, there were two competing theories of what made a wedding valid and binding. One of these was that it was sufficient that a father “gave” his daughter to her husband. That was a cultural standard, however. (The Church chose the ‘exchange of consent’ to be the standard.)

So, as a cultural thing, it persisted – and still persists! – in certain contexts. The ‘traditional’ formulation would be along the lines of “who gives this woman to be married to this man?”, which really does speak of a father’s putative “ownership” of his daughter. I wouldn’t say that it’s a “Protestant thing”, but it survives in some ceremonies. Not Catholic ceremonies, however, and, as 1ke points out, going back all the way to Trent!

In the Byzantine Tradition, the bride & groom walk down the aisle together.

Actually, that’s what the Latin Catholic rite calls for, too, but that isn’t what’s customary in the West, so we get the fashion show processions…

When my sister & BIL got married, my father gave my sister away. The wedding was in his parish which is RC.

It wasn’t part of the ritual, though… right?

Let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that this is true, as such. Does this “spiritual authority” extend to the right to “give his daughter away” to a man in marriage? After all, that’s the discussion, isn’t it? Not just “who’s the spiritual authority?”, but more to the point “does that ‘spiritual authority’ extend to unilaterally ‘giving away’ his daughter?”

The bishop gives permission for religious orders to enter into his territory, but does not exert authority over their internal matters, as such.

A priest Even has authority or at least some power over sexual and marriage issues.

Pardon?

 

[Rau]

What is the nature of this authority? How might it be manifest? Would it extend to granting or denying permission for an adult daughter (or adult son for that matter) to, say, travel, or to take up a job or to marry?

 

[Rau]

So it’s an authority of a very limited or specialized kind. It cannot limit the free choices or actions of the daughter. I take it there is no notion of a father authorizing a marriage, or handing over (in the marriage ceremony) his daughter to her husband to be?

 

[Rau]

Good to hear. I’ve not read the whole thread but I do hope you conceded that to @1ke.

 

[phil19034]

Yeah, but men are also under the authority of their priests and bishops. the idea that women belong to their father until they belong to their husband suggests that there is no period of time where a woman doesn’t belong to anyone. It’s not the same with men.

The word “belong” is 100% incorrect. Women do NOT belong to their husbands and fathers.

HOWEVER, a husband and/or father should be willing to die to protect his wife and/or daughter.

Husbands & Fathers are the heads of the domestic church. Being under the “authority” of the husband and/or Father does not place a burden on the woman (at least when properly practiced). It actually places a “burden” on the husband and/or father instead.

Husbands & Fathers need to take care of their wives and daughters. Post-pubescent sons on the other hand are expected to step up and help protect the mother & sisters.

This ancient cultural practice came from the fact that people used to consider women as more “sacred” and needing more protection. Not because they were weak, but because they were often pregnant and/or taking care of young children.

So it was a man’s job (whether husband or father & even post-pubescent son/brother) to take care of the women in his family so those women could take care of young children.

I pray this makes sense.

 

[Rau]

You need to be more careful in your assertions. In this case, you took a notion that is nuanced and very narrow and expressed it bluntly without any of the nuance. And further, you introduced that notion in a thread titled “Do women belong to their father…”. The “spiritual authority” to which you referred is in no way the same notion as the thread title addressed, yet you introduced this notion of “spiritual authority” almost as an affirmative response to the thread question. Is there any wonder at the response you got?

 

[Elizabeth3]

Are any of the Botkin sisters married?

I only casually know of them. I never really kept up with their nonsense but Anna Sophia has a facebook page and it doesn’t appear that she or her sister have married. They are in their thirties now. I do notice they have quite the little cottage industry to support themselves and it seems they may also work with some kind of family business. It’s sad really. It seems their identity is so wrapped up in being daughters under patriarchal authority and even sisters by the way they praise their brothers and are involved in their lives, that they never got a chance to pursue wife/motherhood/single woman separate from that identity. It’s interesting that their blog has mostly gone silent now that they are in their 30’s although people are still probably buying their books.

What happens to them when Daddy dies and they haven’t still married? Who will support them without a father or husband?

I’m not sure but it seems if they are still single, they go from their father’s care to their brothers. Creepy. If they don’t have brothers, I think I read at one time they advocate for finding some kind of male authority to put themselves under.

 

[TMC]

This thread is s very interesting. I recently started a thread asking how much authority do forum members give a parish priest. Since “go ask your priest” is a common answer on here. Mostly, with a few exceptions, posters willingly give incredible amounts of authority to a priest. A priest Even has authority or at least some power over sexual and marriage issues. But yet, the idea that a father, a parent, or a spouse has Spiritual authority here in this case is a repugnant and revolting idea to some. Fascinating! A priest who barely knows you has authority that people are offended that a father or husband might have! Confused!

I did not participate in the “go ask a priest” thread, but it is advice I commonly give. You may be misunderstanding it.

I often tell people to ask a priest (I usually say priest or some other respected real life person) for two reasons. 1) No one should make important life decisions based on anonymous internet advice, and 2) I often give this advice when the advice being given in the thread is bad to crazy.

What I never tell anyone is that the have to do whatever the priest says. Priests can give perspective and counseling. They can provide more information about Church teaching. They hopefully can refer parishioners to resources. Outside of the administration of Church Sacraments and things like that, I would never say you have to do whatever the priest says.

 

[Elizabeth3]

But yet, the idea that a father, a parent, or a spouse has Spiritual authority here in this case is a repugnant and revolting idea to some. Fascinating! A priest who barely knows you has authority that people are offended that a father or husband might have! Confused!

It’s what is being implied that that authority entails that is revolting. No one disputes that a father (or a mother for that matter) has authority over their minor children but to say that the daughter never reaches full maturity in which she goes from her father’s authority to making her own decisions, is not church teaching at all. She should still honor her father, listen to his counsel if he’s trustworthy in whatever area he’s giving counsel etc. but she’s not bound to obey his directives nor should he be issuing directives to an adult daughter.

Edited to add that authority of the husband doesn’t extend to limiting his wife’s liberty in any way but only to her taking an excess of liberty to the detriment of the marriage or family. But then the wife also has authority to make sure her husband is fulfilling his duties to the family as well as was illustrated in the article I shared above.