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David_Oatney
Guest
I believe, proclaim, and accept as absolutely true, completely infallable, and totally correct all that the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God.
- Status
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Gratias_Grace
Guest
I think that perhaps your point a) is near the truth. I also think that Mohammeds stubborness and proudness (point b) prevented him from understanding Christiannity and fooled him to make his own religion.
Of course it will be of a great victory to Satan to decieve so many people (the moslems). The point is that God is stronger than Satan! If some evil spirit like Satan and his demons tries to fool a lot of people to believe that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God the Father, do you really think God will allow Satan to condemn people whom seek God, with a sincere heart without knowlege of the Trinity, to Hell?
Nobody can enter Heaven without saying YES to Jesus Christ. That’s why it is reasonable to think that people seeking for God with a sincere heart (without knowing about the thruth in the Bible) will get Gods help to understand at their deathbed. Then, when they understand they can make the choice, YES or NO to Jesus Christ as the Son of God and our Saviour.
Since we can’t comunicate with the dead, we can’t know what exactly happens. The Churchs teachings are (as I said before): "in CCC 847 the Church proclams some conditions: 1) through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, — 2) seek God with a sincere heart, and 3) moved by grace."
The Churchs teaching about moslems, dosen’t mean that if you and I start to wisit mosques instead of the Church we are on our way to Heaven! You and I know Jesus Christ. The moslems do not know him (conscious), but we, as christians, are to follow the teaching of Christ: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” 38This is the greatest and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Mat 22:37-40)
Chairity means to wish the best for our neighbors, inclusive for our moslem brother and sisters. We can pray that God will show the moslems that through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, whom seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, - show them HIS MERCY and in some way let them them know who Christ is on their deathbed.
**No one has a guarantee to enter Heaven! **
There is no contradiction in believing in Gods Greatness and the “command of mission” stated in CCC 848 - 856.
It can be very dangerous for a moslem to follow Christ. He/she can be killed:
xastanford.org/archives/muslim-converts-to-christianity-face-persecution-here-in-america/
If you know a moslem interested in Jesus send him or her to this link for protection by other Christian Ex-Moslems:
exmuslim.com/
J
John_19_59
Guest
If some evil spirit like Satan and his demons tries to fool a lot of people to believe that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God the Father, do you really think God will allow Satan to condemn people whom seek God, with a sincere heart without knowlege of the Trinity, to Hell?
Gratis Grace,
I would love to believe that.
The only problem is that I’m fairly certain that before 1958 the Church didn’t teach that. And I’m fairly certain that it infallibly taught the opposite.
In fact the Church and its martyrs thought it was so imperative that people be baptised and brought to Christ and His Church that they gave their lives for it.
You see I don’t understand why they did that if people like Muslims could be left to seek God sincerely in their own way and find their own salvation. They would be much better off - humanly speaking - to be left in their ignorance.
Your theory is also a denial of the infallible Catholic teaching of original sin and the neccessity of baptism.
But I’m glad you agree that God or any messengers from God spoke to Mohammed. It’s a start. The God of Islam is a false God and may even be the Devil himself.
Gratis Grace,
I would love to believe that.
The only problem is that I’m fairly certain that before 1958 the Church didn’t teach that. And I’m fairly certain that it infallibly taught the opposite.
In fact the Church and its martyrs thought it was so imperative that people be baptised and brought to Christ and His Church that they gave their lives for it.
You see I don’t understand why they did that if people like Muslims could be left to seek God sincerely in their own way and find their own salvation. They would be much better off - humanly speaking - to be left in their ignorance.
Your theory is also a denial of the infallible Catholic teaching of original sin and the neccessity of baptism.
But I’m glad you agree that God or any messengers from God spoke to Mohammed. It’s a start. The God of Islam is a false God and may even be the Devil himself.
G
Gratias_Grace
Guest
John_19_59
I have not discussed original sin and baptism. Every person is “marked” by the sin of Adam and Eve, also the moslems.
Of course baptism is necessary to be marked as Christs Children (die and rise with him / be made new).
But God is almighty, and it’s up to Him if he will accept unbabtised people that of no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, whom seek God with a sincere heart, and are moved by grace towards Him.
An atheist has chosen his/her destination by denieing God. A moslem has not denied the existing of God the Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
In John 14:26 Jesus says: “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you”.
Jesus dosen’t say that the Holy Spirit shall teach the Church everything AT ONCE!
The Churchs existance with the Holy Eucarist in its Center is necessary! The Cathechism of the Catholic Church teaches that the Church is a pilgrim on Earth, i.e. the Church is still open for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The Church promise no one to be saved. It only says: “Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Mission - a requirement of the Church’s catholicity
849 The missionary mandate. … "
…
CCC 847 only says that there are people that of no fault of their own know about our Jesus. That’s why it dosen’t in a substantial way claim for sure that ther will be no moslems in Heaven.
Yes, they did! If they hadn’t we probably would have had no Christian Catholic Chuch to day. To day the evangelium are spread almost all over the world. The Church doesn’t state that the moslems will enter Heaven as a body (or that moslem terrorists goes for Heaven)! It only hold open the possibility that some of them may be saved because of the Grace of God the Almighty!
Now, I hope I will be excused if I am not in shape to continue the debate about this topic. Our pope is seriously ill, and I feel it hard to consentrate to day. I love our pope and feel sad.
In a few minutes, hours or perhaps days the sedevacntists will have rigth: The chair of Peter will be empty (for a while)! :crying:
All my best wishes for you!
G.Grace
J
John_19_59
Guest
Gratias Grace,
Yes God can save who He will.
But it IS a novel catholic teaching that Muslims worship the One God that we do.
And that IS a contradiction of any Church teaching before 1958.
And that is my point. Vatican II and the CCC contain contradictions to previous teaching - which brings the Council into doubt.
I believe this wil be resolved later at a proper dogmatic council.
Until then I feel like an ordinary Catholic must have felt during the Arian crisis where most bishops and eventually the Pope (under duress - but how were ordinary Catholics supposed to know) taught error.
Anyway, Our Pope is dying - pray for his soul - he has much to answer for, including a few questions from Our Lady I would imagine. “Why didn’t you consecrate Russia”. And Our Lord “Why did you allow the scandal of homosexula priests to fester”. And St John the Baptist “You wanted me to protect Islam?”.
Lord have mercy on him and us all.
Pray also for the Church as I see potential for a great schism all around us.
Yes God can save who He will.
But it IS a novel catholic teaching that Muslims worship the One God that we do.
And that IS a contradiction of any Church teaching before 1958.
And that is my point. Vatican II and the CCC contain contradictions to previous teaching - which brings the Council into doubt.
I believe this wil be resolved later at a proper dogmatic council.
Until then I feel like an ordinary Catholic must have felt during the Arian crisis where most bishops and eventually the Pope (under duress - but how were ordinary Catholics supposed to know) taught error.
Anyway, Our Pope is dying - pray for his soul - he has much to answer for, including a few questions from Our Lady I would imagine. “Why didn’t you consecrate Russia”. And Our Lord “Why did you allow the scandal of homosexula priests to fester”. And St John the Baptist “You wanted me to protect Islam?”.
Lord have mercy on him and us all.
Pray also for the Church as I see potential for a great schism all around us.
G
Gratias_Grace
Guest
John_19_59
"Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get" (Mat 7:1-2))
Don’t you understand how many people that have found God with the help of the Holy Fathers love? Don’t you understand how many souls that one day perhaps will be saved because the love of the Holy Father touched them (I am talking about christians)? If you don’t like him, perhaps you could be polite enough to not speak about that, now, when so many, all over the world, are in sorrow because our Pope is near death!
lily4life.com/lily_productions.htm
"Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get" (Mat 7:1-2))
Don’t you understand how many people that have found God with the help of the Holy Fathers love? Don’t you understand how many souls that one day perhaps will be saved because the love of the Holy Father touched them (I am talking about christians)? If you don’t like him, perhaps you could be polite enough to not speak about that, now, when so many, all over the world, are in sorrow because our Pope is near death!
lily4life.com/lily_productions.htm
R
reen12
Guest
Oh, my G–. The pope is dying and someone is
suggesting that the Holy Father has much to answer
for???
I am dumbfounded that such a statement would be made at this moment in time.
John Paul II was a “Marian” pope.
reen12
suggesting that the Holy Father has much to answer
for???
I am dumbfounded that such a statement would be made at this moment in time.
John Paul II was a “Marian” pope.
reen12
F
Feanaro
Guest
Believe everything!
The church is the fullness of truth and the mystical body of Christ.
The church is the fullness of truth and the mystical body of Christ.
J
John_19_59
Guest
Don’t you understand how many people that have found God with the help of the Holy Fathers love? Don’t you understand how many souls that one day perhaps will be saved because the love of the Holy Father touched them (I am talking about christians)? If you don’t like him, perhaps you could be polite enough to not speak about that, now, when so many, all over the world, are in sorrow because our Pope is near death!
**
For a start I haven’t judged him - that is for God alone and I sincerely hope and pray that God is merciful to him, and to us all (especially me) when it is our time.
But I believe the questions are fair, for someone with so much love for Our Lady he didn’t do as she explicitly asked.
In reaching out to the world he has taught novelty and alienated good people inside the Church who hold to the traditions of our fathers.
He pursued world peace, brotherhood, libery, fraternity and equality, the cult of man, human dignity, a “civilisation of love” at the expense of the real mission of the Church which is to convert the nations to Christ.
God have mercy on him. To those who have been given much, much is expected.
I truely hope we meet again in heaven. God is mercy.
…and God help the next Pope.
If you don’t like him,
I loved him. Tonight am I very sad. That doesn’t mean I agreed with some of the things he did. I love my wife, but you know sometimes…
**
**
**
For a start I haven’t judged him - that is for God alone and I sincerely hope and pray that God is merciful to him, and to us all (especially me) when it is our time.
But I believe the questions are fair, for someone with so much love for Our Lady he didn’t do as she explicitly asked.
In reaching out to the world he has taught novelty and alienated good people inside the Church who hold to the traditions of our fathers.
He pursued world peace, brotherhood, libery, fraternity and equality, the cult of man, human dignity, a “civilisation of love” at the expense of the real mission of the Church which is to convert the nations to Christ.
God have mercy on him. To those who have been given much, much is expected.
I truely hope we meet again in heaven. God is mercy.
…and God help the next Pope.
If you don’t like him,
I loved him. Tonight am I very sad. That doesn’t mean I agreed with some of the things he did. I love my wife, but you know sometimes…
**
**
S
SWTHRT
Guest
I feel that I believe in everything that the Catholic church teaches. I know I feel irritated because my friend married a Baptist, and now she goes to the Baptist church with him. It seems that now she questions so much about the Catholic church simply because they ask her so many questions at bible study about the Catholic Church that she can’t answer.
Karen
Karen
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reen12
Guest
Dear John 19_59,
"He pursued world peace, brotherhood, libery, fraternity and equality, the cult of man, human dignity, a “civilisation of love” "quoteJohn 19_59
With the exeception of “the cult of man”, what in the list
above is not found in bringing someone to Christ?
“the cult of man”???
If you mean “personalism”, that’s OK.
To say that the Holy Father “pursued”…the cult of man…"
means…what, exactly, John 19_59?
He spoke several languages, and his philosophical writings
are so “dense” with meaning, that even many trained in philosophy are challenged, reading them.
So, would you please tell me what your take is on
“the cult of man”? I’m incredulous.
reen12
"He pursued world peace, brotherhood, libery, fraternity and equality, the cult of man, human dignity, a “civilisation of love” "quoteJohn 19_59
With the exeception of “the cult of man”, what in the list
above is not found in bringing someone to Christ?
“the cult of man”???
If you mean “personalism”, that’s OK.
To say that the Holy Father “pursued”…the cult of man…"
means…what, exactly, John 19_59?
He spoke several languages, and his philosophical writings
are so “dense” with meaning, that even many trained in philosophy are challenged, reading them.
So, would you please tell me what your take is on
“the cult of man”? I’m incredulous.
reen12
T
The_Living_God
Guest
Everything is fulfilled in Jesus Christ and in Him alone- Look Here and See http://harvestrain0.tripod.com/id12.htmlhttp://harvestrain0.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jesusbaptized.gif
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John_19_59
Guest
With the exeception of “the cult of man”, what in the list
above is not found in bringing someone to Christ?
Today I heard a Jewish representative on the BBC news recounting a “wonderful” story of how when John Paul was a young priest a catholic family brought a jewish boy they had adopted to be baptised.
John Paul asked them “do you think his original parents would have wanted this”? They thought about it and said “no”. So he told them to bring him up a jew.
Sounds like a Gandhi story to me, is it true?
If it is then it shows that bringing people to Christ was secondary to something else going on in his head.
It you believe in universalism and “perhaps” an empty hell, then conversion is not such a priority.
above is not found in bringing someone to Christ?
Today I heard a Jewish representative on the BBC news recounting a “wonderful” story of how when John Paul was a young priest a catholic family brought a jewish boy they had adopted to be baptised.
John Paul asked them “do you think his original parents would have wanted this”? They thought about it and said “no”. So he told them to bring him up a jew.
Sounds like a Gandhi story to me, is it true?
If it is then it shows that bringing people to Christ was secondary to something else going on in his head.
It you believe in universalism and “perhaps” an empty hell, then conversion is not such a priority.
J
John_19_59
Guest
“The cult of man”
Well he certainly has a cult following now.
Again on the BBC today - “to the people gathered here in St Peters square today, he was the way, the truth and the light”.
God help the next Pope.
In watching “leading Catholics” on various news channels over the last few days, I get the feeling that unless the next Pope abandons even more Catholic teaching there will be big trouble.
Well he certainly has a cult following now.
Again on the BBC today - “to the people gathered here in St Peters square today, he was the way, the truth and the light”.
God help the next Pope.
In watching “leading Catholics” on various news channels over the last few days, I get the feeling that unless the next Pope abandons even more Catholic teaching there will be big trouble.
O
oriel36
Guest
John_19_59 said:
Global consumerism would present the next pope with a far greater challenge than the communist/capitalist heritage which John Paul II inherited and helped to dismantle.It is no longer clearcut opposing ideologies but vacuous packaged materialism that can suck the virtue out of anything worthwhile and reduce it to diluted liberal/conservative language as a convenient and false front for mediocrity and spiritual laziness.
The next pope needs to be a truly amazing individual who must not give up on the Western European heritage just as John Paul sought out countries trying to imitate the Western materialism or ‘developing countries’ as they are condescendingly called.
Who knows,maybe they will save us instead for God knows that, other than technological achievement, we have lost the creative spirit that exists at the center of Christianity and imagine it to be a totally social medium.
R
reen12
Guest
John 19_59,
It is still not at all clear to me how you are using
the term “the cult of man.”
reen12
It is still not at all clear to me how you are using
the term “the cult of man.”
reen12
J
John_19_59
Guest
The “Cult of man”… Paul VI started it, John Paul contined with his “christian humanism”.
I am not vouching for anything else on this site, but this article seems fair to me…
dailycatholic.org/issue/2002Feb/feb15mdi.htm
There’s an interesting point about decline in belief in the real presence since our liturgies became more man-centred.
I am not vouching for anything else on this site, but this article seems fair to me…
dailycatholic.org/issue/2002Feb/feb15mdi.htm
There’s an interesting point about decline in belief in the real presence since our liturgies became more man-centred.
J
jimmytoes
Guest
Gary,
Don’t know if you’ve gotten a response, or if this helps…
This one is not from the Catechism, and it is about those involved a bit more than the laiety… Theologians, and I assume Priests and Deacons at least! but John Paul II felt compelled to spell it out very suscinctly (where’s the darn spellchecker?) in a “Motu Proprio” document, adding the obvious to Cannon Law.
The Vatican website has it in Latin, German, Spanish and Portugese English version at EWTN. Good question though. I’ll have to see…
Jim
P
Paris_Blues
Guest
I do now since I realize I wasn’t being taught the whole truth! But does that make me Catholic even though I’m not confirmed yet? No…
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Paris Blues:
If you are baptised and have made your 1st communion then you are already a Catholic. If you were validly baptised in any Christian church that uses the Trinitarin formual (Father,Son, and Holy Spirit.) then you will most definitely be buried as a Catholic if you should somehow buy the farm. So you are a Catholic in the eyes of God and the Church.
If you’re in RCIA and awaiting confirmation and the other sacraments of initiation including first Eucharist, then you are a Catholic, just not in “full communion” just yet. Patience dear sister!
Pax vobiscum,
Paris,I do now since I realize I wasn’t being taught the whole truth! But does that make me Catholic even though I’m not confirmed yet? No…
If you are baptised and have made your 1st communion then you are already a Catholic. If you were validly baptised in any Christian church that uses the Trinitarin formual (Father,Son, and Holy Spirit.) then you will most definitely be buried as a Catholic if you should somehow buy the farm. So you are a Catholic in the eyes of God and the Church.
If you’re in RCIA and awaiting confirmation and the other sacraments of initiation including first Eucharist, then you are a Catholic, just not in “full communion” just yet. Patience dear sister!
Pax vobiscum,
- Status