do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[Hisalone]

\This is the Teaching of the Catholic Church. However, this subsists in completeness only in the Catholic Church. All denominations and schismatics have separated from the fullness of Apostolic Faith to a greater or lesser degree.

We lack nothing, nothing. In Christ is the fullness of God. Apostles were trained by Christ, today Christ is training apostles to operate in the fullness of that office. There are ordinary believers that are operating in the power of signs and wonders that Stephen demonstrated. God doesnt need the CC complete His work in these end times and is raising up a people on to Him that will to His work and bring in His harvest.

 

[mpjw2]

True. To say that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is not the same thing as saying you cannot be saved unless you are Catholic.

ok lets change it around a little

Does the catholic church teach there is salvation for christians who were never baptized in the CC and will die having never placed 1 foot in a catholic church?

 

[mpjw2]

We lack nothing, nothing. In Christ is the fullness of God. Apostles were trained by Christ, today Christ is training apostles to operate in the fullness of that office. There are ordinary believers that are operating in the power of signs and wonders that Stephen demonstrated. God doesnt need (only) the CC, (but all christian believers in Him,) complete His work in these end times and is raising up a people on to Him that will to His work and bring in His harvest.

amen hisalone, i inserted a couple words in your quote to change its meaning the way I believe you intended…correct me if I am wrong

 

[mpjw2]

Due to the fact that neither of us abandoned the Christian faith completely, calling us apostates is simply factually wrong considering the definition of the Catholic encyclopedia.
You might call us heretics (but then we’re in good company).

amen Janet

 

[AChris]

Due to the fact that neither of us abandoned the Christian faith completely, calling us apostates is simply factually wrong considering the definition of the Catholic encyclopedia.
You might call us heretics (but then we’re in good company).

“…complete and voluntary abandonment of the Christian religion”.

The Christian religion was the early Church.
The Christian religion was the medieval Church.
The Christian religion was the Catholic Church in the time of the crusades.
The Christian religion was the Catholic Church during the “reformation”.
The Christian religion is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

If you leave it, you’re an apostate. I’m not calling you one…you simply are one.

Now, what does it mean to leave it? I think that’s the big question.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus Christ is my Saviour!

Amen!

There is nothing more intimate than that…

I don’t know what you mean by that.

There is nothing more intimate than intimacy with your Beloved. And that comes with the One Flesh Union…with Comm-UNION…with the Eucharist.

I am actually married, but for my husband and for me Jesus Christ comes first…

Amen! That is what the Sacrament of Matrimony is all about.

Jesus Christ is the Author and Perfecter of my faith, the Author of my salvation, my Lord, my Hope, my Friend, my Shepherd, my God, my Saviour, my King, my Light, my Master, my Mediator, my Rock, my Teacher, my Foundation, my Life, my Messiah, my Physician, my Salvation, etc.

That is beautiful, Janet, and straight out of Catholic teaching!

What you forgot to mention is He should also be your Beloved Spouse. Check out the Song of Songs. Check out the Book of Revelation. Check out St. Paul’s letters. Check out the Gospels. They’re filled with imagery and references to God wanting to be our Beloved Spouse. The Divine Marriage. Christ and His Bride.

I don’t have to be Catholic to have an intimate relationship with my Lord.

Well, you do have to be Catholic to have the One Flesh Union with Christ. (Ok, or Orthodox! )

 

[AChris]

“I don’t have to be Catholic to have an intimate relationship with my Lord.”

Well, you do have to be Catholic to have the One Flesh Union with Christ. (Ok, or Orthodox! )

Abram did not have a relationship with God until God revealed Himself to him and made the covenant with him. The same was true of Moses.

None of the other people at the time of the ancient Hebrews had a relationship with God…the one true God.

In the early years of the Church, the only ones who had a relationship with the Risen Lord (God) were the early Christians (the Catholic Church). Christ did not write a rule book, He set up a Church. The Church wrote the New Testament.

So now, how can anyone claim “I don’t have to be Catholic to have an intimate relationship with my Lord”? If you run off from the “Body of Christ”, the Church, the only way back to intimacy with Him is in the confessional.

 

[PRmerger]

What you forgot to mention is He should also be your Beloved Spouse. Check out the Song of Songs. Check out the Book of Revelation. Check out St. Paul’s letters. Check out the Gospels. They’re filled with imagery and references to God wanting to be our Beloved Spouse. The Divine Marriage. Christ and His Bride.

More magnificent Catholic theology:
(from Pope JPII’s Theology of the Body)

Inasmuch as the Church is herself, so, as Body, she receives from Christ her head the entire gift of salvation as the fruit of Christ’s love and of his giving himself up for the Church, the fruit of his giving himself up to the last. That gift of himself to the Father by obedience unto death (cf. Phil 2:8) is contemporaneously, according to Ephesians, a “giving himself up for the Church.” In this expression, **redeeming love is transformed, I would say, into spousal love. **Giving himself up for the Church, through the same redeeming act Christ is united once and for all with her, as bridegroom with the bride, as husband with his wife. Christ gives himself through all that which is once and for all contained in his “giving himself up” for the Church. In this way, **the mystery of the redemption of the body conceals within itself, in a certain sense, the mystery “of the marriage of the Lamb” (cf. Rv 19:7). **Because Christ is the head of the Body, the entire salvific gift of the redemption penetrates the Church as the Body of that head, and continually forms the most profound, essential substance of her life. It is the spousal form, given that in the cited text the analogy of body-head becomes an analogy of groom-bride, or rather of husband-wife. (bold mine)

 

[guanophore]

We lack nothing, nothing. In Christ is the fullness of God. Apostles were trained by Christ, today Christ is training apostles to operate in the fullness of that office. There are ordinary believers that are operating in the power of signs and wonders that Stephen demonstrated. God doesnt need the CC complete His work in these end times and is raising up a people on to Him that will to His work and bring in His harvest.

One has to wonder, if you lack nothing,a nd are pursuaded that God has no need for the CC, what are you doing on a Catholic forum?

 

[guanophore]

ok lets change it around a little

Does the catholic church teach there is salvation for christians who were never baptized in the CC and will die having never placed 1 foot in a catholic church?

I am wondering if you are reading any of the postes, mpjw2. This has been stated repeatedly here. Being saved through the Catholic Church does not require that one be aware. That is why it is called “invicible ignorance”.

If you go back and read the catechism, it will be clear that the Church holds to the Apostolic Teaching that God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. Those who live without the Law are judged apart from the Law.

 

[mpjw2]

guanophore

I am wondering if you are reading any of the posts, mpjw2

yes I have been and I think I got it, least I hope I hope I do

I must admit I am stubborn and I appreciate your patience most of all.
I want to rationalize in my mind what the catholic church teaches about salvation, not just wth me but everyone

mpjw2

Does the catholic church teach there is salvation for christians who were never baptized in the CC and will die having never placed 1 foot in a catholic church?

guanophore

Being saved through the Catholic Church does not require that one be aware. That is why it is called “invicible ignorance”.

I was not saved through the catholic church.

since you stated this,

how does one get saved through the catholic church?

what does it mean to you to be saved?

are you saved?

If you go back and read the catechism, it will be clear that the Church holds to the Apostolic Teaching that God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. Those who live without the Law are judged apart from the Law .

ok then, so that we are on the same page …lets do this

there can be 8 classes of people in the world today which I illustrated below.
I believe from everything I am reading that your statement

Those who live without the Law are judged apart from the Law

applies to all.

If it does not please correct me.

I also believe that being “judged apart from the Law” means that one is at the total mercy of God and their is no church teaching on salvation for those who “live without the Law”

correct?

here are the 8 classes of people…

non-Christ centered religions

Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews etc…who will die outside the catholic church because they never heard about the catholic church

---

Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews etc who have been exposed to the catholic church and will die outside the catholic church because they refused to believe the teachings of the church​

Atheists…do not follow any religion and not believe in God even after they been exposed to the Catholic who church will die outside the catholic church

---

those people in who never heard the name of Jesus proclaimed
areas where there is no access to media and/or any church in the immediate area.
(i. e. African tribes) who will die outside the catholic church

---

those who are christians but not catholic and due to no fault of their own have never been exposed to the catholic church, (how that is possible i have no idea but lets assume it is possible)
(i.e. protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ and will die outside the catholic church.

---

those who are christians but not catholic and have been exposed to but never been baptized in the catholic church (i.e. protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ, and will die outside the catholic church.

---

christians like me which include (protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ, have been baptized in the catholic church at one time in their life, walked away from the catholic church and will die as (protestant , lutheran, methodist, evangelical, presbyterian, penticostal etc.) christian believer in Jesus Christ.

these people as you say

Most modern day Protestants, and catholics who leave, are ignorant.

and

One must keep in mind that Catholics believe, since there is only One Body, all who are in Christ are members of His One Body. You may not be a member of the visible church, but you are imperfectly joined if you were properly baptized.

PRmerger

Well, you do have to be Catholic to have the One Flesh Union with Christ.

**even though we are “imperfectly joined” catholic, from what I quoted PR, I assume then the church teaches that we then have an imperfect “One Flesh Union with Christ”?

correct**

**and even though I have an imperfect “One Flesh Union with Christ”, I can still achieve salvation.

correct?**

because …

you

Those who live without the Law are judged apart from the Law

that being the case, any teachings on how we are judged?

that said does AChris

So now, how can anyone claim “***I don’t have to be Catholic ***to have an intimate relationship with my Lord”? If you run off from the “Body of Christ” , the Church, the only way back to intimacy with Him is in the confessional.

or you believe I am running off from the “Body of Christ” and would need to confess it like AChris suggested?

or

I do not need to confess because I can not run from something I do not fully understand.

correct

---

christians which include (protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ, have been baptized in the catholic church at one time in their life, and fully understand the teachings of the church, refuse to believe 100% what the church teaches, walked away and will die as (protestant , lutheran, methodist, evangelical, presbyterian, penticostal etc.).

It has been posted that these people are in rebellion and will spend eternity in hell

correct?

---

thank you and God bless

mpjw

 

[ron77nyc]

If Jesus keeps people out of heaven for not being Catholic and for no other reason than that, He would have to apologize to the Pharisees for correcting them about sticking to the letter of the law and not having the spirit of the law.

I think this discussion is really showing a critical deficiency in understanding exactly what heaven is…
It is NOT Jesus “keeping people out of heaven for not being Catholic.”

And so how do we know the true spirit of the law? Isn’t that why we have a Church to explain what the spirit of the law is?

The Pope is supposed to be Christ’s representative. If traditional popes taught you must be Catholic in order to be forgiven of your sins and only Catholics go to heaven then he and all Catholics who believe this are proclaiming the letter of the law according to the Catholic Church and not the spirit of the law according to Jesus.

**Jesus said: John 6 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.**

Today God is gathering people all over the world who are outside the Catholic Church. Pope John Paul II knew this. Protestant missionaries are risking their lives to preach the gospel in Muslim countries. Jews who accept Jesus are persecuted by their own families. These people as well as Catholic missionaries are giving up everything to obey God. If Jesus tells the non-Catholics “Depart from me you non-Catholics” which is what the popes have always said before Vatican II and many Catholics still believe today, then they are more like Pharisees than representatives of Jesus.

 

[Janet1983]

“…complete and voluntary abandonment of the Christian religion”.

The Christian religion was the early Church.
The Christian religion was the medieval Church.
The Christian religion was the Catholic Church in the time of the crusades.
The Christian religion was the Catholic Church during the “reformation”.
The Christian religion is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

If you leave it, you’re an apostate. I’m not calling you one…you simply are one.

Now, what does it mean to leave it? I think that’s the big question.

I know what the church teaches, I used to believe it and I don’t agree with it anymore. I changed my mind.
I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my Saviour and my Lord. I am a Christian… and whether or not you want to claim that I am apostate does not even matter in this case…

 

[Hisalone]

One has to wonder, if you lack nothing,a nd are pursuaded that God has no need for the CC, what are you doing on a Catholic forum?

I am on the Non Catholic forum so the question is what are you doing in the non Catholic forum not talking about nonCatholic reiligions?

 

[distracted]

I’m very glad you had that experience. The Catholic Church is your home and that’s where God used His servants to bring you home. The problem is that people in all religions have the same experience and they think it’s the religion that should be exalted. It isn’t. God is to be exalted for anything that we receive. That’s where there is unity. I’m not saying all religions are the same. I’m saying that when we follow God’s teachings we are not divisive. Do not retaliate evil for evil. Humble yourself. Try to outdo each other with good deeds. Be kind to one another. You will be judged by the measure you judge.

Matthew5: 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I think we will be judged on how well we did those things on earth and not what church we went to. Like in the parable of the talents. God will ask: “What did you do with what I gave you?”

i fail to see where i said anything “unloving”…

unlvoing is not trying to save poeple from Hell… which the Bible and the Church say is where most people go… (in so many words)

 

[distracted]

I know what the church teaches, I used to believe it and I don’t agree with it anymore. I changed my mind.
I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my Saviour and my Lord. I am a Christian… and whether or not you want to claim that I am apostate does not even matter in this case…

well, as i told myself years ago…

and then later heard the exact words from a saint (cant recall which one):

The Catholic Church IS Christ…

His very tangible Real Presence is There 24/7

Jesus shows me things There that i would never have revealed to me anywhere else…

i know because i have been in the Real Presence and i have (of course) had to live outside of it…

***Inside the Real Presence is BETTER… Understatement of the feaking year… ***

nonCatholics don’t have this…In my opinion They have nothing remotely comparable…

again Understatment of the year!!!

 

[Hisalone]

amen hisalone, i inserted a couple words in your quote to change its meaning the way I believe you intended…correct me if I am wrong

Thank you mpjw.
We are entering into a unique time in history.
God is mobilizing His Church for a battle. Christ promised that we would do His works and even greater works. That promise is yet to be fullfilled but is about to.He cannot wait for those you lack the faith to enter into this fray because they insist all must kiss their ring. What is sad is the majority of Catholics cannot tell you what the New Covenant is. Their Church has never taught them.

what we know is

1. God is the same today as He was in past times
2. God has called a people unto Him so that He may tabernacle within them so that they may be a light unto the world.
3. That this God within us must be sanctified in our hearts so that we know He is seperate from us yet abiding in us to guide us and to lead us --------Has the Catholic Church ever taught this? Yes it has but only a few Catholics have heard.
4. It is this God within us that will do the work that is a greater work.

 

[dougfreed]

I am wondering if you are reading any of the postes, mpjw2. This has been stated repeatedly here. Being saved through the Catholic Church does not require that one be aware. That is why it is called “invicible ignorance”.

If you go back and read the catechism, it will be clear that the Church holds to the Apostolic Teaching that God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. Those who live without the Law are judged apart from the Law.

gaunophore I know you or someone has answered this but humor me.
If a baby dies before baptism can they go to heaven ?
If I go back and read the cateachism aren’t I reading writings of man?

 

[Janet1983]

Well, you do have to be Catholic to have the One Flesh Union with Christ.

I don’t have to be Catholic for an intimate relationship and knowledge of my Lord… He drew me to Himself and I am thankful for that…

 

[Janet1983]

“I don’t have to be Catholic to have an intimate relationship with my Lord.”

Abram did not have a relationship with God until God revealed Himself to him and made the covenant with him. The same was true of Moses.

None of the other people at the time of the ancient Hebrews had a relationship with God…the one true God.

In the early years of the Church, the only ones who had a relationship with the Risen Lord (God) were the early Christians (the Catholic Church). Christ did not write a rule book, He set up a Church. The Church wrote the New Testament.

So now, how can anyone claim “I don’t have to be Catholic to have an intimate relationship with my Lord”? If you run off from the “Body of Christ”, the Church, the only way back to intimacy with Him is in the confessional.

How do you know whom God draws? How can you claim that He does not draw me to Himself?
God is always at works around us and He reveals Himself to us…