do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[guanophore]

I was not saved through the catholic church.

I know you believe this, but we see it differently. See, Catholics beleive that there is no distinction between Christ and His One Body, the Church. We also believe that there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved but Christ. Therefore, all who are saved in Christ are saved through His One Body, the Church.

since you stated this,

how does one get saved through the catholic church?

We are saved by grace, through faith in Christ, who purchased our eternal life by His Blood on the cross, for the remission of our sins.

what does it mean to you to be saved?

The size if the thread cannot contain it! To be delivered from evil, and placed in right relationship with God, so that we can walk in newness of life with Him, in this life, and the life to come.

are you saved?

Catholics embrace the Apostolic Teaching that there are some aspects of salvation that are completed at baptism, some that we work out throughout this life, and some that are not completed until we are glorified in heaven.

I also believe that being “judged apart from the Law” means that one is at the total mercy of God and their is no church teaching on salvation for those who “live without the Law”

The Apostles taugth that there are standards by which those without the Law are judged by God. The Catholic Church embraces the Teachings of the Apostles, therefore, the Catholic C/hurch has teaching on salvation for those who without the Law.

here are the 8 classes of people…

non-Christ centered religions

Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews etc…who will die outside the catholic church because they never heard about the catholic church

I think you are confusing the congregation visible on earth as Catholic with the Catholic Church, outside of which no one can be saved. You make these statements about yourself being saved outside of the Catholic Church, and these persons who have never heard of the Church dying outside of it, but because you cannot distinguish the difference, I think your conclusions are wrong.

---

Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews etc who have been exposed to the catholic church and will die outside the catholic church because they refused to believe the teachings of the church

No. Exposure does not necessarily equate to understanding. The thief on the cross may have been exposed, but did not enter into salvation at the time he was exposed.
Yet, he was saved.​

Atheists…do not follow any religion and not believe in God even after they been exposed to the Catholic who church will die outside the catholic church

The Catholic Church has visible and invisible elements. There is no way for you to determine who has “died outside”. You can only observe that they may not be members of a visible congregation.​

those who are christians but not catholic and due to no fault of their own have never been exposed to the catholic church, (how that is possible i have no idea but lets assume it is possible)

It is getting more and more difficult, thanks to ministries such as CAF.

those who are christians but not catholic and have been exposed to but never been baptized in the catholic church (i.e. protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ, and will die outside the catholic church.

No, mpjw2. You are not understanding. There is only ONE FAITH, ONE LORD, ONE BAPTISM! All those who are baptized into Christ have been baptized into His One Body, the Church. There is no valid baptism that is “outside the Catholic Church”.

 

[guanophore]

---

christians like me which include (protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ, have been baptized in the catholic church at one time in their life, walked away from the catholic church and will die as (protestant , lutheran, methodist, evangelical, presbyterian, penticostal etc.) christian believer in Jesus Christ.

You don’t know what may happen to you between now and death. That is why the Apostles told us not to judge before the time.

even though we are “imperfectly joined” catholic, from what I quoted PR, I assume then the church teaches that we then have an imperfect “One Flesh Union with Christ”?
correct

Correct. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

**and even though I have an imperfect “One Flesh Union with Christ”, I can still achieve salvation.

correct?**

And cannot without that union, which is why there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

that being the case, any teachings on how we are judged?

Yes.

or you believe I am running off from the “Body of Christ” and would need to confess it like AChris suggested?

I am not sure why you departed from your Catholic affiliation, but I suspect it was because you found what you believed and experienced as a more authentic relationship with God among Protestants. If that is indeed the case, from your point of view, you were running “toward” what you perceived as an authentic expression of the Body of Christ.

If and when you decide to be more perfectly joined to that Body then yes, the appropriate step would be to go to confession.

I do not need to confess because I can not run from something I do not fully understand.

clearly you departed, and clearly you are adamant about not returning. I tend to think it is more a matter of running toward where you found you could connect to God in a more meaningful manner. However, it is also clear that you did not fully understand what you left.

christians which include (protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ, have been baptized in the catholic church at one time in their life, and fully understand the teachings of the church, refuse to believe 100% what the church teaches, walked away and will die as (protestant , lutheran, methodist, evangelical, presbyterian, penticostal etc.).

It has been posted that these people are in rebellion and will spend eternity in hell

Only God can judge this. In my expereince (which includes almost all of these ecclesial communities) people who are sincere about their faith are doing the best they can with what they have to walk according to what they believe God wants from them.

thank you and God bless

mpjw

Thank you, for your sincere efforts to understand.

 

[guanophore]

The Pope is supposed to be Christ’s representative. If traditional popes taught you must be Catholic in order to be forgiven of your sins and only Catholics go to heaven then he and all Catholics who believe this are proclaiming the letter of the law according to the Catholic Church and not the spirit of the law according to Jesus.

**Jesus said: John 6 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.**

Today God is gathering people all over the world who are outside the Catholic Church.

No, they are not Ron. All those who are in Christ are imperfectly joined to the Catholic Church. There is only ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM. all who are properly baptized are members of Christs ONE BODY. they may not be members of a visible Catholic congregation, but they are joined to Him and we are allmembers one of another.

Pope John Paul II knew this. Protestant missionaries are risking their lives to preach the gospel in Muslim countries. Jews who accept Jesus are persecuted by their own families. These people as well as Catholic missionaries are giving up everything to obey God. If Jesus tells the non-Catholics “Depart from me you non-Catholics” which is what the popes have always said before Vatican II and many Catholics still believe today, then they are more like Pharisees than representatives of Jesus.

The reason they are called “separated brethren” is because we are all one body and members one of another. We are separated due to misundersandings about doctrine.

You have misunderstood the teaching of the Popes.

 

[mpjw2]

---

You don’t know what may happen to you between now and death. That is why the Apostles told us not to judge before the time.

Correct. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

And cannot without that union, which is why there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Yes.

I am not sure why you departed from your Catholic affiliation, but I suspect it was because you found what you believed and experienced as a more authentic relationship with God among Protestants. If that is indeed the case, from your point of view, you were running “toward” what you perceived as an authentic expression of the Body of Christ.

If and when you decide to be more perfectly joined to that Body then yes, the appropriate step would be to go to confession.

clearly you departed, and clearly you are adamant about not returning. I tend to think it is more a matter of running toward where you found you could connect to God in a more meaningful manner. However, it is also clear that you did not fully understand what you left.

Only God can judge this. In my expereince (which includes almost all of these ecclesial communities) people who are sincere about their faith are doing the best they can with what they have to walk according to what they believe God wants from them.

Thank you, for your sincere efforts to understand.

guanophore, thank you for time and answering all my inquiries and concerns.

I still cannot say I understand everything I inquired about although you helped me understand better now from a catholic viewpoint than I did before.

And you assumption about me that I found a more authentic relationship to God away from the Catholic Church is accurate.
I will stop inquiring at this point.
I believe there are areas of questioning that you can not answer to my full understanding, God only knows.

thank you again

God bless

 

[Janet1983]

I guess I should have worded my question better.

My question: is there any Catholic teaching that you learned in your youth that you now have thought, "Oh! I didn’t know that’s what the CC actually taught. I thought they said “X”, but after reading the Catechism, I realize they actually taught “Y”

I will say, just from this thread, that it’s obvious you did not know that the CC taught we’re in a spousal relationship with Him through the Eucharist. That’s new to you, isn’t it?

No it wasn’t new to me that the CC taught that…
The teaching is being mentioned quite a few times in more than just the Catechism. You also find it in other writings of the church that I was familiar with.
The analogy of the CC being the bride of Christ has been mentioned quite a few times and it has also been mentioned in different ways. One of the writings I can remember was basically explaining why there is no ordination of women.

The CCC writes this:
796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist. The Lord referred to himself as the “bridegroom.” The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride “betrothed” to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him. The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb. “Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her.” He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:

Whether or not the words “bride of Christ” ever appear in scripture is a totally different problem on it’s own, but let’s assume that it is kind of indicated…
The question however still remains: Is the Church of Christ and the Church talked about in scripture literally an institution like the RCC or is it more the spiritual body of all those who believe, rely upon and call upon the Lord?

Looking for more information I stumbled upon this Blog… Not that I agree with everything in it (and you probably won’t) but it’s an interesting thought to me.

 

[Hisalone]

It’s the marital relationship between God and His people, in which our sublime consummation of our ONENESS with Christ is made manifest in the Eucharist.

Interesting I have asked this question on 2 threads and not one Catholic has got it right, not one. Yet you all claim the knowledge of the fullness of His truth.

 

[Janet1983]

Ok, maybe I am making this too simple but here goes:

The catholic church has defined what it calls ‘apostate’. If the catholic church decides that you fulfill that definition of being “apostate” then therefore you are called an “apostate.”

I mean, if you do not accept the catholic church to be all knowing in all things, would you care that you are called apostate by them?

Apostate is only a word.

I simply cannot ever again agree 100% with the catholic church on certain things. I look to Jesus for my answers which He has always provided. He has never failed me and since I have come firm in my faith ( which is far far different than a religion)( read: denomination), I have no more fear of what any one thinks of me.

I do not fear excommunication, for Jesus will never leave me nor forsake me.

I do not fear “mortal” sin for there is only one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirt

I do not fear a purgatory with fire and pain for it is the Judgement Seat of Christ and i will be under His gaze( and Pope benedict said that!) and purified so that only those things which remain are pure as gold, silver, and jewels. My sins will be buried in the Sea of forgetfullness never to be remembered now more.

I do not fear the future because i know what the prophets and Jesus Himself said is to come. “fear not!”. I know the ending. I do not need apparartions of mary, not nostrodomus nor mayan calanders. I have the book of revelation of Jesus Christ as told to John.

I do not fear the word apostate. Or heresy. For the Holy Spirit will guide me.

I do not fear the word “apostate”… you are right in that one and the alternative is not a better word to be precise:
Someone who abandons the faith completely (for example by becoming an atheist or a muslim) is an apostate to the Christian faith.
Someone who abandons only parts of the teaching of his/her religion is commonly referred to as a heretic…
Whichever it is does not really matter in the end, because they are both negative expressions to tell a person they are wrong and condemning themselves…
What we are talking about here however is whether or not one or the other title applies and by calling me and others apostates you are telling us that we are not Christians anymore, which we are…
Just because we do not adhere to the commands of the RCC you claim to be in a position to tell us that we are not Christians and to tell us that our faith is more than just insufficient: It is not Christian.
That is what I take personal. If I told you that I believed that as a Catholic you are not a Christian you would certainly get upset and I understand why…
This has been discussed sufficiently and every time you’ll find a few people to get upset about who claim that Catholicism is not a Christian religion.
If you go ahead and tell other people that they are not Christians because they are not Catholic or are not Catholic anymore you actually claim to be able to see their hearts and if you really mean what you say that would be the epitome of pride. God is the one who judges, not you.

 

[Hisalone]

No, they are not Ron. All those who are in Christ are imperfectly joined to the Catholic Church. There is only ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM. all who are properly baptized are members of Christs ONE BODY. they may not be members of a visible Catholic congregation, but they are joined to Him and we are allmembers one of another.

The reason they are called “separated brethren” is because we are all one body and members one of another. We are separated due to misundersandings about doctrine.

You have misunderstood the teaching of the Popes.

You could not be more wrong we are baptised into Christ. In Christ we are members in Christs Church as Catholics are baptised into Christ are members into His Church the Church we are both memebers of is not the Catholic Church no it is Christs Church the Catholic Church is only a subset of Christs Church. You can insist all you may like however you simply are wrong.

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting I have asked this question on 2 threads and not one Catholic has got it right, not one. Yet you all claim the knowledge of the fullness of His truth.

Fair enough. What is it that you think the CC teaches is the New Covenant, Hisalone?

 

[sdtouchton]

We know because The Catholic Church is the Most Hated Christian Church in the World.
Just as the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, so she naturally must follow the trials and tribulations of her founder and Head. His physical body endured an unmerciful persecution and scourging, and so must His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church, endure the same.

A comparison between Jesus Christ and His Mystical Body. They are one and cannot be separated.
What happened to the One also happens to the other.

Jesus Christ persecuted…His Mystical Body, the Catholic Church persecuted…
They rebelled against His Authority…They rebel against its Authority. 2Peter 2:10
They said Crucify Him…They have tried to destroy it for 2000 years.
He is called Beelzebub…It is run by Satan. Matthew 10:25.
He is a false messiah…It is a false church. Luke 22:70-71
He called Himself the Son of GOD…It claims it was founded by GOD, Matthew 16:18.
He called Himself Truth…It claims to be infallible, 1Timothy 3:15.
He called Himself King…It says it is the only true Church, Matthew 16:18.
He could not sin…It has no spot or wrinkle, Ephesians 5:27.
He was not be believed by many…It is not believed by many. Luke 22:67
He was denied by many…It is denied by many. Luke 22:57-60
Not understanding Him, they walked away…Not understanding it, they walk away. John 6:66
He had false accusers…It has false accusers. Mark 14:56-59
He was mocked…It is mocked. Luke 23:35-37
He was scandalized…It is scandalized. Luke 17:1-2
He was hated without a cause…It is hated without a cause. John 15:18-25
His accuser, Judas, died…Its accusers die, but still, the Church lives on.
His enemies would stumble and fall…Its enemies stumble and fall. John 18:6
We have no king but Caesar…We have no need of it, as we have the Bible.
Can anything good come out of Nazareth?..Can anything good come from Rome? John 1:46
They cried out, “Not this one but Barabbas”…It is also rejected by the world. John 15:18-25
He bore His Cross…It bears a cross also, the cross of persecution.
He died on the Cross…It has thousands of martyrs, many on crosses.

“Do not be surprised, brethren, IF THE WORLD HATES YOU.” 1John 3:13

“IF THE WORLD HATES YOU, KNOW THAT IT HATED ME BEFORE YOU.
IF YOU WERE OF THE WORLD, THE WORLD WOULD LOVE ITS OWN. BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, THEREFORE THE WORLD HATES YOU.
REMEMBER THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU: NO SERVANT IS GREATER THAN HIS MASTER. IF THEY HAVE PERSECUTED ME, THEY WILL PERSECUTE YOU ALSO; IF THEY HAVE KEPT MY WORD, THEY WILL KEEP YOURS ALSO.
BUT ALL OF THESE THINGS THEY WILL DO TO YOU FOR MY NAME’S SAKE, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT KNOW HIM WHO SENT ME.
IF I HAD NOT COME AND SPOKEN TO THEM, THEY WOULD HAVE NO SIN. BUT NOW THEY HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR THEIR SIN. HE WHO HATES ME HATES MY FATHER ALSO. IF I HAD NOT DONE AMONG THEM WORKS SUCH AS NO ONE ELSE HAS DONE, THEY WOULD HAVE NO SIN. BUT NOW THEY HAVE SEEN, AND HAVE HATED BOTH ME AND MY FATHER;
BUT THAT THE WORD WRITTEN IN THEIR LAW MAY BE FULFILLED, ‘THEY HAVE HATED ME WITHOUT CAUSE’, (Psalms 35:19)”.
John 15:18-25
I would say that Jesus Christ said it all in these verses written with the inspired pen of Saint John wouldn’t you?

Name another Church which is attacked so much on a daily basis as is the Catholic Church?
Jesus Christ warned us, “You will be HATED BY ALL NATIONS for My Name’s sake.”
Matthew 24:9

 

[PRmerger]

No it wasn’t new to me that the CC taught that…

Ok. So was there any other teaching that you found you misunderstood in your youth that the CAF has corrected your understanding?

The analogy of the CC being the bride of Christ has been mentioned quite a few times and it has also been mentioned in different ways.

Yes, I’m talking about the Church being the bride of Christ, but I’m also talking specifically about YOU, as the CCC calls it in, “the spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God” (I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 2 Cor 11:2)

The question however still remains: Is the Church of Christ and the Church talked about in scripture literally an institution like the RCC or is it more the spiritual body of all those who believe, rely upon and call upon the Lord?

Like most Catholic answers, it’s BOTH/AND!

Looking for more information I stumbled upon this Blog… Not that I agree with everything in it (and you probably won’t) but it’s an interesting thought to me.

Interesting blog.

So do you think your church is the pure and undefiled Bride of Christ, Janet? Is that an accurate description of your “bride”? Even if it’s not an institution but is a “spiritual body”–do you recognize these Christians who are part of the church as being with spot or blemish?

 

[SeanTom]

Distracted,

ENTERING GOD’S KINGDOM

There is only one GUARANTEED way for Christians to enter God’s Kingdom., and that way is through our Lord, Christ Jesus as supported by the one true church, the Catholic church. Catechism of the Catholic Church, article 754 states: “The Church is, accordingly, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep”. The Catholic Church, the only true church, was made manifest to the world on the day of Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

All Christians, regardless of their religious faith, will be taken into Heaven IF they believe in our Lord Jesus, follow His teachings and keeps His commandments. To enter God’s Kingdom, one must also be free from grave offenses (mortal sins) against God…

For non-Catholics, there are other ways to attain Heaven for those who do not know Jesus for reasons not of their own doing.

1. There are those who live in isolated areas of our world who never heard of Jesus and have never seen or heard God’s Word as given to us in Scripture. If they live lives worthy of God’s acceptance, they will then come under the merciful judgment of Jesus and will be taken into Heaven, if God so Wills.
2. There are those who call themselves Atheists; but were born into an Atheist’s family and were never permitted to hear of Jesus or His Kingdom; nor were they ever introduced to God or Jesus in any other way. If they didn’t believe in God because they never knew who He was, then God would, in His mercy, judge these people accordingly. We can not second guess how God will handle this, but must leave it up to His compassion and mercy.
3. There are those who call themselves Agnostics. These Agnostics neither believe nor disbelieve in God, but sort of live on the rail of the fence. They believe in God only to the extent that they say “just in case there is one, I better not turn my back on Him”. But they are turning their backs on Him if they never seek Him out nor read or listen to His Word. These Agnostics , unless they change their ways, probably will not see God’s Kingdom. There is an exception to this however. If these Agnostics lived a good life, following more or less the teachings of Jesus, even though they were not aware of doing so, God may, in His wisdom, allow them to enter His Kingdom. God will know what is in their hearts and why they opted to remain Agnostic. It could be they were raised in an Agnostic family and were not permitted to even discuss God or any other faith. I don’t know how God will handle this situation, but if they die while still children, I would like to think that the love of God for His special children would show His love and compassion towards them by accepting them into His Kingdom. Matthew 19:14: “Jesus said, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven’” It is my feeling, though, that when one, when reaching the age of reason, professes to be an agnostic, and doesn’t do anything to seek out the truth about Jesus, then he may not ever see the Kingdom of God.
4. Then there are those who do evil acts and live a life of sin. Although they knew of God, they never attended church nor did they want anything to do with God‘s goodness. They, in effect, turn their backs on God and renounce His existence. These people surely are destined for Hell. With one exception:

If these evil people, before they die, have a change in heart and confess their sins to God in a way that shows sincerity, shows remorse and then repents for having sinned, then in that case I believe God, after determining the truthfulness and validity of their confessions, will forgive them and welcome them into His Kingdom. But here again, they must rely on the compassion and mercy of our Lord.

The above four examples speak for themselves and are ways for non-practicing Christians to enter God’s Kingdom. However, the people in these examples are subject to God’s compassion and mercy. BUT none of these four ways are guarantees that they will enter Heaven, they all depend on God’s mercy.

As for the Jewish people, I honestly don’t know how God will handle them, since they don’t believe that Jesus is the Savior for all people, and I can’t even render an opinion. All I know is that God is Just, God is compassionate, God is love and God will judge all people wisely and then either accept or reject them from His Heavenly Kingdom. God knows what is in their hearts and will judge them accordingly.

HOWEVER, there is a way we can GUARANTEE our admittance to God’s Heavenly Kingdom, and this certainly is the way we should all strive to
accomplish… In John 11:25: Jesus said…. ’I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.” John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me” Jesus tells us that if we follow His teachings, we WILL see the Kingdom of God. That is His GUARANTEE to us.

The Catholic Catechism teaches: Article 847 “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.” The phrase “through no fault of their own” can mean many things. But we must remember that we are all encouraged to find out as much as we can as to how we can attain God’s Heavenly Kingdom. “Through no fault of their own” doesn’t mean that one did not seek the truth, but refers to those who perhaps, for some reason or another, were hidden from the truth by force or otherwise restrained from knowing the truth through reading Scripture or Scriptural teachings.

(Continued on my next posting)

 

[SeanTom]

Continued from previous posting:

I leave you with the following questions: Do you want to GUARANTEE your acceptance into God’s Kingdom? Or do you want to take chances and hope that God’s compassion and love for His adopted children, under any and all circumstances, will be your “ticket” into Heaven? Think about it! In order to GUARANTEE your entrance into Heaven, you should know that the one true church is the Catholic church. Follow the teachings of Jesus as given to us by the Catholic Church, study God’s Word in Scripture, go to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, receive the Rite of Reconciliation and Holy Communion as often as you can, and love your brothers and sisters in Christ.

But also know that those of any denomination, Baptists, Methodist, etc who believe that Jesus is our Christ and Savior, follow His teachings and keep ourselves clean from mortal sins, will be accepted into His heavenly kingdom.

As to Baptism, no one is baptized into the Catholic church per se, but are baptized into the Christian community headed by our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. Those who are baptized in a church that believes in and accepts the teachings of Jesus, are truly Christians. This is why, when someone, who was already baptized by another faith, but desires to become a Catholic, finds it unnecessary to be Baptized again. The Catholic church accepts all Baptized persons into the faith who were baptized by other Christian denominations.

 

[ron77nyc]

No, they are not Ron. All those who are in Christ are imperfectly joined to the Catholic Church. There is only ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM. all who are properly baptized are members of Christs ONE BODY. they may not be members of a visible Catholic congregation, but they are joined to Him and we are allmembers one of another.

The reason they are called “separated brethren” is because we are all one body and members one of another. We are separated due to misundersandings about doctrine.

You have misunderstood the teaching of the Popes.

I have misunderstood and millions more. If Vatican II didn’t change anything the Church had already taught then why are people still confused and trying to figure it out?

Here’s a very good website for anyone who wants to start over again.

catholicmissionleaflets.org/leafndx.htm

 

[tweetymom]

I don’t have to be Catholic for an intimate relationship and knowledge of my Lord… He drew me to Himself and I am thankful for that…

Janet I am Catholic and I agree with you 100%

 

[guanophore]

The catholic church has defined what it calls ‘apostate’. If the catholic church decides that you fulfill that definition of being “apostate” then therefore you are called an “apostate.”

No, I don’t think so. It is required of the Church to define the faith, and by default, to define those who are not in unity with it. It is required that the Church distinguish what it means to fall away from the faith. However, these are descriptions of behavior and attitude, not of persons. The Church does not teach that we could call an apostate anyone, since we are not in a position to judge the state of the soul of another. The most that can be done is to describe what constitutes an apostate, then, if the shoe fits…

I mean, if you do not accept the catholic church to be all knowing in all things, would you care that you are called apostate by them?

Apostate is only a word.

Good point. However it is a loaded word, and what if, indeed, Jesus meant what He said when He sent the Apostles in His authority? What if they really did have authority, and passed it on to their successors, the bishops?

I simply cannot ever again agree 100% with the catholic church on certain things.

Clearly, you never did 100% agree in the first place!

I look to Jesus for my answers which He  has always provided.  He has never failed me and since I have come firm in my faith ( which is far far different than a religion)( read: denomination), I have no more fear of what any one thinks of me.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

I do not fear excommunication, for Jesus will never leave me nor forsake me.

No, He will not leave you, but you may leave Him, and His One Body, the Church.

I do not fear “mortal” sin for there is only one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirt

The problem with mortal sin is that, if it is unforgiven, it is “mortal”.

None of us should fear the sins that have been forgiven. It is the sins committed that are not forgiven that create problems.

I do not fear a purgatory with fire and pain for it is the Judgement Seat of Christ and i will be under His gaze( and Pope benedict said that!) and purified so that only those things which remain are pure as gold, silver, and jewels. My sins will be buried in the Sea of forgetfullness never to be remembered now more.

Amen! He who began this work in you is able to finish what He started!

I do not fear the future because i know what the prophets and Jesus Himself said is to come. “fear not!”. I know the ending. I do not need apparartions of mary, not nostrodomus nor mayan calanders. I have the book of revelation of Jesus Christ as told to John.

Are you comparing apparitions of Mary to these other thins? I agree, no one 'needs" them except the ones to whom they are given. It is not up to us to determine what other people need to get to heaven.

Don’t you think the book of Revelation contains the apparition of Mary?

I do not fear the word apostate. Or heresy. For the Holy Spirit will guide me.

Indeed, none of us need to walk in fear, especially of words. But the HS will not guide an individual in a different direction than He has guided all his other individuals since the time of the Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

I agree, however it was the mission of the Catholic Church to teach it and it has failed.

I don’t think it is right to lay the failures of people at the feet of the Holy Bride of Christ. This is part of what fuels our divisions - a deficient understanding of the nature of Church. “The Catholic Church” is much more than a collection of poor catechists.

Besides, it is not accurate to say “it has failed” as there are plenty of Catholics who successfully engaged in this mission, and persons who have gotten the message.

BTW the link has teachings that skirt all around the New Covenant(the altar of the new covenant, the liturgy of the new covenant, the cup of the new covenant) but not on what that covenant is.

Do you imagine that the cup can be separated from Him whose blood was poured out for us on the cross?

 

[Carlan]

I don’t have to be Catholic for an intimate relationship and knowledge of my Lord… He drew me to Himself and I am thankful for that…

It is wonderful that Janet and has found this intimate relationship with Jesus after leaving Catholicism and also the others who have turned away and found the same thing amongst the thousands of small groups of Christians separated from the whole church.

Never the less,Jesus wants his flock all joined together in Him. He wants us all one in him his one body. As PM said in an earlier post we are all his beloved. It breaks his heart that we are separated,when members of his one body break away. Yes they are Christians and they love Jesus as Janet has described, but don’t you see they have separated themselves from his body which is the church he started and gave to the twelve to pass on to us down through the ages, His family, his Kingdom one in him, Unity.It is all about Jesus working in his whole body the Church. It is not just Jesus and me and my little group of believers. Carlan.

 

[guanophore]

No, the acceptance of Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior is what is needed to receive the loving grace of our Father. Even the Catholic church has said their is salvation outside the church.

No, ronin. The Catholic Church has never, and does not now, teach this.

Who are we as humans to questions the divine grace of God the Father?  After all what human or human organization can promise and deliver salvation?  None, only Christ Jesus can do this (God in the flesh).  You really have to love everything God has done for us.

Well, I agree! So, since He founded a Church for us, why do you not love her?

 

[guanophore]

I have misunderstood and millions more. If Vatican II didn’t change anything the Church had already taught then why are people still confused and trying to figure it out?

I know, I was one of them! There has been a great deal of poor catechesis and misunderstanding. Wolves came in among the sheep. The smoke of hell wafted into the windows of the Church. However, this does not meant that Jesus failed to presere the one holy deposit of faith He entrusted to the Church.

Some of us, whose responsibility it was to study and understand the Apostolic Faith failed to do so, and went astray.

Some of those who were astray were then allowed to teach, which in turn, caused others to turn astray. The fault of such persons, however, is not the fault of the Church.