do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[PRmerger]

Well the issue is that most Protestants to not believe in the real presence.
I for my part don’t do it anymore… I therefore can and will not and never again bow down to the so-called eucharist, that you deem to be God.
I therefore cannot follow your argument of a one flesh union. Jesus Christ is my life and that is far more personal than eating your eucharist.
My soul depends on Him and my life is directed towards Him. No symbol, sacrament or ritual can bring me closer to Him than the renewing of my mind through my Lord and Saviour.

Acknowledged.

I’m just saying, analogically: I’m talking to you as a person who’s experienced intimacy in the divine marriage, who’s enjoyed the divine marital embrace, the one flesh union with my Divine Spouse.

You and other Protestants are best friends with Him, without the benefit of marital intimacy.

Imagine you, as someone who’s in a beautiful, wonderful married relationship with your earthly husband, are trying to convince a friend about the wonders of matrimony. Your friend tells you: I am quite close to my boyfriend, thank you very much. I see him every Friday night and we chat on the phone every day. You say, “Are you as close to him as you could ever be? Do you enjoy the marital embrace? Have the two of you become one flesh?” She responds, “No. I don’t need to. We’re just fine. Best friends even!”

You can’t convince her, but it’s her loss. She can be wonderfully close to her boyfriend but until she marries him, she’ll never experience that complete union. sigh

 

[ron77nyc]

You and other Protestants are best friends with Him, without the benefit of marital intimacy.

Imagine you, as someone who’s in a beautiful, wonderful married relationship with your earthly husband, are trying to convince a friend about the wonders of matrimony. Your friend tells you: I am quite close to my boyfriend, thank you very much. I see him every Friday night and we chat on the phone every day. You say, “Are you as close to him as you could ever be? Do you enjoy the marital embrace? Have the two of you become one flesh?” She responds, “No. I don’t need to. We’re just fine. Best friends even!”

You can’t convince her, but it’s her loss. She can be wonderfully close to her boyfriend but until she marries him, she’ll never experience that complete union. sigh

This was Jesus talking to the apostles.

John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Just as we are not saved until we die and it’s not over ‘til it’s over, I don’t think we will ever be as close to Him as we will be when we get to heaven. The Groom has not married the bride until the wedding ceremony so right now we are engaged to Him. I think Jewish tradition allowed engaged couples to be physically intimate but Catholics are not allowed to do that until they are married.

 

[PRmerger]

This was Jesus talking to the apostles.

John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Amen!

Just as we are not saved until we die and it’s not over ‘til it’s over, I don’t think we will ever be as close to Him as we will be when we get to heaven. The Groom has not married the bride until the wedding ceremony so right now we are engaged to Him. I think Jewish tradition allowed engaged couples to be physically intimate but Catholics are not allowed to do that until they are married.

I don’t think you fully understand the Divine Liturgy and the Eucharist. It is indeed heaven touching down on earth and we are as close to Him as we will be in heaven–in fact, we *are *in heaven when we’re at Mass.

 

[ron77nyc]

I don’t think you fully understand the Divine Liturgy and the Eucharist. It is indeed heaven touching down on earth and we are as close to Him as we will be in heaven–in fact, we *are *in heaven when we’re at Mass.

My goodness!!! Do they have weekly announcements and the collection basket?

 

[PRmerger]

My goodness!!! Do they have weekly announcements and the collection basket?

 

[Janet1983]

Acknowledged.

I’m just saying, analogically: I’m talking to you as a person who’s experienced intimacy in the divine marriage, who’s enjoyed the divine marital embrace, the one flesh union with my Divine Spouse.

You and other Protestants are best friends with Him, without the benefit of marital intimacy.

Imagine you, as someone who’s in a beautiful, wonderful married relationship with your earthly husband, are trying to convince a friend about the wonders of matrimony. Your friend tells you: I am quite close to my boyfriend, thank you very much. I see him every Friday night and we chat on the phone every day. You say, “Are you as close to him as you could ever be? Do you enjoy the marital embrace? Have the two of you become one flesh?” She responds, “No. I don’t need to. We’re just fine. Best friends even!”

You can’t convince her, but it’s her loss. She can be wonderfully close to her boyfriend but until she marries him, she’ll never experience that complete union. sigh

I do not have to go ahead and eat anything.
I have a marital relationship with my Lord already… He is always with me 24/7.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not have to go ahead and eat anything.
I have a marital relationship with my Lord already… He is always with me 24/7.

sigh You’re like that friend I was talking about.

“I don’t have to have the one flesh union with my boyfriend to be close to him.”

Ok. But you don’t know what you’re missing!!

 

[nlm]

Contrary to what you might think, most Protestants are not confused like a cat chasing his tail day in day out, about morality and theology or ecclesiology. Most Protestants go to Bible studies, pray hard, attend worship on Sundays and many also on Wednesdays, and they don’t stay up late at night trying to put pieces together. And it might surprise you also that they don’t compare themselves to the Catholic Church 24/7 thinking about ecumenism and reunions with Rome or how they lack an infallible teaching authority. When I attended the Anglican church for about seven years, I not once heard people mention Catholicism good or bad. Lutheran worship I’ve attended and Lutheran institutions, the same thing. Catholicism isn’t the barometer and litmus test for Protestants all the time and for most none of the time. The ones who are confused are those in turmoil like the Episcopal Church vs. Anglican breakoffs like ACNA and the ELCA Lutherans vs. LCMS Lutherans, etc. And even in those situations those folks are trying to reform from within and change things for themselves, not seek the Catholic world for advice and feel lost without the pope. I don’t say this in anger but just from observation. Most Christians just try the best that they can just like most Catholics do.

Having worshiped on both sides of the fence lol, you do understand. Very well said . God Bless. NLM

 

[SeanTom]

Janet 1983,

WHY DO CATHOLICS RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION?

I will be making quotes from John 6:51-56, and follow some of these quotes with comments.

51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats the bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”.

COMMENT:

Jesus is telling us that he is the living bread. He didn’t say that he is a man; that he is a human being; that he is a miracle worker; but he did say that he is the living bread. He also said that whoever eats this bread (He being the living bread) will live forever. So what is the living bread? Jesus goes further on to say that “the bread that I will give is my flesh”. It is the bread that Jesus gave a special meaning to at the Last Supper and this special meaning carries on today when the bread is consecrated, making this bread the living bread, or the flesh of Jesus.

53: Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within you.”?

COMMENT:

This is a very direct statement made by Jesus. If we want to have the life which Jesus wants us to have, and if we are to enter His Kingdom, we MUST eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood. Otherwise, we will not have life within us. He started off this verse by saying “Amen, amen” twice, which is telling us that what he is about to say is absolutely true and can not be questioned. There is no other meaning to this verse. Yet, some religions completely ignore this command.

54: “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.”

COMMENT:

How are we to obtain eternal life and be raised up (to His Kingdom) on the last day? Jesus tells us this in that single sentence: “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…….” How can anyone misconstrue or deny what this statement made by Jesus is telling us. Some religions do not believe this statement made by Jesus, believing it to be a form of cannibalism, and totally ignore everything Jesus said about eating His body and drinking His blood - but how can they possibly deny the above statement. Was Jesus just joshing when he said that, was he joking, was he just making small talk? I don’t think so. Remember, Jesus created the whole world out of nothing, could He not come into our bodies through bread and wine while still maintaining the original texture of the bread and wine? Is this impossible for Him to do? If one believes in the Holy Spirit, whom you can not see, why not believe that Jesus can come into our bodies through the vessels of bread and wine? Hey, are we to tell Jesus what he can and can not do?

55: “For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink”

COMMENT: This is telling me that there are no doubts what Jesus meant here. His flesh is TRUE (as opposed to the words false, doubtful, possible, etc.) food. Food meaning the bread that Jesus referred to when he said: “Whoever eats this bread….” which now refers to the consecrated bread that we receive during Communion.

56: “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in Him.”

COMMENT: This is self explanatory. But recall that this isn’t the first time he made this statement. He made this same statement several times in John 6. Why would He keep repeating Himself? He, in my opinion, was emphasizing his point. Now, how do we know that Jesus wasn’t only referring to the bread that he distributed during the Last Supper? This could not have referred to ONLY those who attended the Last Supper - but to those who were yet to be born. The word “whoever” pertains to all humans, including those born in the future. Otherwise, instead of using the words “whoever eats this bread”, Jesus would, or could have said “For those of you sitting at this table, who eats this bread….”. This statement was not just an “off-the-cuff” statement, but a very concerned statement to his followers and his followers to come.

1. “Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me”

COMMENT: Here Jesus is showing us the passing down of the sequence by which we can all obtain eternal life. Jesus has eternal life because of His Father, and we can have eternal life because of Jesus. Taking Jesus into our body through the Consecrated Bread and Wine will accomplish this. One example of how this Rite was passed on from Jesus to Peter, and, in sequence, to the Priests, follows:

Paul wrote in 1 Cor: 23-25: "I have received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said: ‘This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance (anamnesis) of me.’ In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying: ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ " (I Cor. 11:23-25; cf. Matt. 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-20).

58: “This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever”

COMMENT: Jesus is showing us here how to accept Him as our Lord and Savior. We must allow Jesus to enter our body, mind and soul, by partaking of His body and blood through the consumption of the consecrated bread and wine, His body and blood. This is a heavenly act coming down to us from Heaven. If we do this, we will live forever, in His Kingdom.

60: “Then many of his disciples who were listening said, ’This saying is hard; who can accept it? As a result of this, many of His disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

COMMENT: This was a command, and a divine precept. Jesus, knowing this, said to them, “Doth this scandalize you?” And, rather than give a figurative meaning, “many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” Jesus was then prepared to allow even the twelve apostles to leave him without further explanation. Jesus then asked his twelve, “Will you also go away?

(Continued on next postiing)

 

[SeanTom]

Janet1983

(Continued from previous posting)

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: It is obvious that Jesus meant his words to be taken literally. In other parts of Scripture, when Jesus made remarks to his disciples, and the disciples questioned or indicated that they did not understand what Jesus had said, then Jesus would explain to them what his words meant, either directly or through a parable.

In One incident Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, that “unless a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” Nicodemus then asked, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again?”. Jesus then answered him precisely by telling him that a man must be “born again of water and the Holy Ghost.” Christ again corrects his misunderstanding.

At still another time, Jesus said to His disciples, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” The disciples then thought that Jesus was talking about their taking no bread with them. Jesus, knowing what they were thinking, explained himself and asked, “Why do you not understand that it was not concerning bread? I said to you, Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees” The disciples then understood that Jesus was talking about their doctrines.

The above were usual occurrences when disciples did not understand the meaning of some of Jesus’ teachings.

BUT, in this case, when the disciples said they couldn’t accept or believe that the bread was Jesus’ body and the wine was Jesus’ blood, or the concept thereof, Jesus did not
proceed to explain what he meant, as he did in other teachings, but rather just let them leave without any further comments. This tells me that Jesus meant what he said and that it was very clear. He did not try to explain how this event happens, but repeatedly asked them to believe what he had said. Many still walked away.

The preceding scriptural references and my comments tell me that priests, as disciples who descended from Jesus and Peter, do, in fact, change the bread and wine into the body and blood of our Savior during the Consecration. This Consecration is a means of carrying out Jesus demands when he told us to eat and drink his body and blood; and that his flesh is true food and his blood is true drink., If priests did not have this authority, the meaning of Jesus teachings on the partaking of his body and blood would be lost. I thank God that we, in the Catholic Church, have the true meaning of this action and the opportunity to bring Jesus into our bodies through Holy Communion. This is not an event that takes place in many other religions and that is sad, and what is even sadder is that they deny the validity of what Jesus had told us in the form of a command.

Finally, in Mat:28:16-20: (Talking to his eleven Apostles) “Then Jesus approached and said to them, ‘All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you’”. One of His commands was “: “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day”. The command was passed on by Jesus to the Apostles, and subsequently to our ordained priests.

I believe the above with all my heart and all my soul.
4

 

[Doxiemom]

Note to Janet

Gosh, I was supporting you.

 

[guanophore]

Once again thank you for your judgement of me:tiphat:

It is very important, Tweety, to be able to apply standards to what one reads, and determine if it is Catholic, or it is not. This is what the Apostles meant when they said “judge with right judgement”. Applying criteria to the information that goes through our senses is our responsibility as Christians.

It is unrelated the the status of a person’s soul. The fact that your posts do not reflect Catholic doctrine is not a “judgement of you” as a person. Your relationship with God is between you, and Him. :byzsoc:

yes I was banned for a few days because I made a statement that wasn’t liked . But am back and thank you for the welcome back:tiphat: But I have made amends . God Bless all

Good for you!

A lot of us make statements that are not liked. No one is perfect in everything he says!

 

[guanophore]

How that? What’s the point in Jesus Christ dying on the cross if He did not do it for our sins, paying the price we would have to pay?
To rightfully pay for our sins against an infinitely holy God we would have to suffer through the infinite punishment in an eternal hell… Through the cross we don’t have to.

You are exactly right Janet, and that is why the doctrine of substition is wrong. Jesus did not substitute Himself in our place, because if He had, He would have to pay an eternity in hell.

Instead, as the perfect sacrifice, He bore our sins on the cross, and became sin, so that we could live without sin. He made expiation for our sins, but not as a subtitute.

 

[mpjw2]

You are exactly right Janet, and that is why the doctrine of substition is wrong. Jesus did not substitute Himself in our place, because if He had, He would have to pay an eternity in hell.

Instead, as the perfect sacrifice, He bore our sins on the cross, and became sin, so that we could live without sin. He made expiation for our sins, but not as a subtitute.

Guanophore in all due respect, say it as you wish…

bottom line…

Because of Jesus, we do not have to pay the price…**hell, which we deserve **for our sinful wretchful ways

what did Jesus do?

Jesus sacrificed Himself, himself being as pure and sinfree which goes beyond human understanding, and because He loved us…as you said, “He bore our sins on the cross”,

and after His death, He paid the price…**hell which He did not deserve **

Staying in hell temporarily negates substitution?

The fact that Jesus defeated death, hell, and resurrected from the dead is testament that Jesus is everything who He claimed to be.

 

[PRmerger]

Staying in hell temporarily negates substitution?

What do you mean by this, mpjw? Do you believe that some people stay in hell temporarily?

The fact that Jesus defeated death, hell, and resurrected from the dead is testament that Jesus is everything who He claimed to be.

Indeed!

 

[mpjw2]

Janet 1983,

WHY DO CATHOLICS RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION?

51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats the bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”.

Sean Tom,

I am so glad you quoted and commented on this scripture

I know that you believe

if we are to enter His Kingdom, we MUST eat the flesh (the bread actually changed to the HIS body in mass) of the Son of Man and drink His blood

You may believe that about catholics,

And I assume, if anyone who does not believe in the real presence and claims they are Catholic, may present a problem with the priest as to whether or not he will offer communion to that individual.

but …

from guanophore’s comments to me recently, quoted below, about salvation for those outside the church, I am not sure you catholics believe the same regarding salvation for all christians who do not believe in the “real presence” of the Eucharist…

please…correct me if I am wrong

mpjw2

those who are christians but not catholic and have been exposed to but never been baptized in the catholic church (i.e. protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ, and will die outside the catholic church.

guanophore

No, mpjw2. You are not understanding. There is only ONE FAITH, ONE LORD, ONE BAPTISM! All those who are baptized into Christ have been baptized into His One Body, the Church. ***There is no valid baptism that is “outside the Catholic Church”. ***

well being that guanophore believes there is only one valid baptism, inside the catholic church, then I would assume that Guanophore also believes all the baptisms outside the catholic church are invalid, (i.e. my baptism at the AOG non denomational church I currently worship in even IF I was NEVER raised catholic and/or NEVER been baptized in the catholic church)…which is true about millions of christians…and not just AOG churches but all non catholic christian churches

Guanophore did not elaborate about what the catholic church teaches, if anything, about all christians who fall into this category who will die without a valid baptism, as guanophore stated, and not being catholic.

he did make a comment not to this statement but it still may apply…

You don’t know what may happen to you between now and death. That is why the Apostles told us not to judge before the time.

I can respect not wanting to judge. And yes… I do not know…

what may happen ----- between now and death

However, lets take it one step at a time…

There will be christians who will die and have been christians who died without a valid baptism, as guanophore stated, in the catholic church and never been catholic at any point in their life.

What does the catholic church teach, if anything, about the eternal destination for these christians?

mpjw2

christians like me which include (protestants , lutherans, methodists, evangelicals, presbyterians, penticostals etc…) who are believers in Jesus Christ, have been baptized in the catholic church at one time in their life, walked away from the catholic church, been baptized outside the catholic church as an adult, and will die as (protestant , lutheran, methodist, evangelical, presbyterian, penticostal etc.) christian believer in Jesus Christ.

guanophore

You don’t know what may happen to you between now and death. That is why the Apostles told us not to judge before the time.

my sentiments the same as above.

but in this case…

There will be christians, like me, Janet, and I believe nlm who will die with a “valid” baptism, as you believe, in the catholic church and have been catholic at one point in their life but since walked away from the catholic church, been baptized outside the catholic church as an adult, and will die with, as guanophore agreed with me, an imperfect “One Flesh Union with Christ”.

What does the catholic church teach, if anything, about the eternal destination for these christians?

One final thought here, however…

SeanTom

Some religions do not believe this statement made by Jesus, believing it to be a form of cannibalism, and totally ignore everything Jesus said about eating His body and drinking His blood - but how can they possibly deny the above statement. Was Jesus just joshing when he said that, was he joking,*** was he just making small talk?*** I don’t think so

SeanTom excellent question

I will give you the answer straight from my heart what I believe to be absolute trueh from the verses you quoted.

Jesus never joked, never small talked and only talked in absolute truth.

They why do you believe in the the real presence and I do not

obviously someone has a false belief.

Well lets focus on the topic of the thread

Does one have to be Catholic to get into Heaven?

the answer lies in the verses you quoted.

I believe in assurance of salvation, catholics do not

One of the reasons I believe in assurance is because of the same verse you quoted

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats the bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.” John 6:51-56

I desire to spritually “eat” Jesus and pray to God everyday of my life.

I must admit Satan is working hard and succeeding at stealing and robbing me of that quality time with God and Jesus as He wants me to have

I thank God for His forgiving grace when I confess to Him

Having said that…look at some key words in the verse…“whoever eats the bread will live forever”

"live forever" means heaven, correct?

and since you believe in the “real presence” and eat the bread and I do not,

my question to you and catholics is the same question you posted to us …

Was Jesus just joshing when he said that,

…"whoever eats the bread will live forever

"
was he joking,*** was he just making small talk?*** I don’t think so

I do not believe so either.

obviously someone has a false belief

who?

may God bless all with the absolute truth of His Word

mpjw2

 

[mpjw2]

What do you mean by this, mpjw? Do you believe that some people stay in hell temporarily?

absolutely not

Jesus went to hell temporarily to complete His sacrifice He made for us in our place.

 

[tweetymom]

absolutely not

Jesus went to hell temporarily to complete His sacrifice He made for us in our place.

Amen to that mp. I am so thankful to Jesus for this. I have one question? That as some say that only CC is right and those who are Catholics are only right? Then I have a burning question, why does God answer prayers of us all? I could share 4 miracle answers from God this last week,

 

[Janet1983]

Note to Janet

Gosh, I was supporting you.

I’m sorry, I didn’t quite get that…

This might seem an old hat as an explanation: Sometimes I simply don’t get the fine differences because I didn’t grow up speaking English… A rich vocabulary and a more or less good knowledge of grammar cannot substitute experience…

 

[mpjw2]

Friends here is the “bottom line” which divides the catholic church from all other non catholic churches

as distracted stated

The Catholic Church IS Christ.

yes …that is what catholics believe.

however, I and many other christians believe

The Catholic Church is **a very important part **of Christ’s church body, as are all other christian churches, who all are believers in Christ as Lord and Savior

whether or not they were former catholics

His very tangible Real Presence is There 24/7

yes …that is what catholics believe.

however, I and many other christians believe that we can access God/Jesus/Holy Spirit
in prayer 24/7

and when I see PR illustrating to Janet his/her beliefs

PR

Ok. But you don’t know what you’re missing!!

non Catholics don’t have this…In my opinion They have nothing remotely comparable…

again Understatment of the year!!!

well… IF I believed in the same as what catholics believe in…the “real presence” of the Holy Eucharist is absolute truth, I guess then I would agree with PR in that I don’t know what I am missing.

PR

Jesus shows me things There that i would never have revealed to me anywhere else…
i know because i have been in the Real Presence and i have (of course) had to live outside of it…

from PR’s statement, I believe the reason Jesus revealed these things to PR is solely due to the fact that PR was at a moment in his life where he was totally focused and meditating and/or in prayer with God.

The eucharist just happened to be present at this time.

PR

Inside the Real Presence is BETTER… Understatement of the feaking year…

PR, I sincerely hope you were not substituting feaking for something else. That is not cool if you were.

I apologize in advance if I am wrong.