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PRmerger
Guest
Ah. So you see a statue as sign of worship. Therein lies your problem.
Do you have any verses in Scripture that tells you that erecting a statue equals worshipping? Chapter and verse, please.
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Do you have any verses in Scripture that tells you that erecting a statue equals worshipping? Chapter and verse, please.
H
Hisalone
Guest
No PRm you know what you teach.
My poiint is you dont teach Jerimiah 31 and Hebrews 8.
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PRmerger
Guest
Ok. But you have no right to tell us that our interpretation of the Scriptures is incorrect, if you believe that all can read the Bible and come to their own interpretations.
The CC teaches that the New Covenant is the marital relationship between God and His people, in which our sublime consummation of our ONENESS with Christ is made manifest in the Eucharist.
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PRmerger
Guest
And, we do indeed teach Jeremiah 31. I told you that it was the marital relationshp between God and His people. See Jeremiah 31:32. God describes himself as our Husband. How 'bout that!
And Hebrews 8:10 sounds like a marriage made in heaven to me.
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guanophore
Guest
What Church do you honestly believe from the words “upon this Rock I will build my church”?
Actually, this is very Catholic of you to say, and was believed and taught by the Church prior to the Bible. It is Apostolic Truth. You find it in scripture because scripture records the teachings of the Apostles.
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prochrist1
Guest
all the disciples where Catholic too? I never heard they where and where they saved?
so everyone in Jesus times was Catholic already ?
I think Christians went to heaven in the NT I agree there was a Catholic church early on, but they never taught in the early years about only Catholics would go to heaven
Catholics became an extension of the Christian church
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guanophore
Guest
No 2nd, in order for a person to be able to desert the Apostolic message, one has to first have and hold an undistorted gospel. Neither you, nor the Mormons have done this. Both of your theologies are based on foundations made by man that were already departed from the Apostolic faith. The founders may possible be found under such a curse, but it is possible that they did not receive the pure gospel either.
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guanophore
Guest
I am not sure what this means. When we get there, we shall see things as they really are. We are responsible to safeguard 100% of what has been revealed to us. Of course, it is only so much as we can handle, being limited. But we are not at liberty to peicemeal the deposit of faith.
We pray that God will give us the mind of Christ, and that we will be able to grasp the whole gospel, as He revealed it to the Apostles. When you read the writings of the early disciples, you will easily see that their faith was Catholic.
You are right, when the gospel the Apostles preached is separated from the way of life that it produces, things appear in a different light. And teh more “issues” are separated frmo what people think of as “gospel” the more and more they appear different. This is what has splintered christendom. This separating and dividing is a fruit of the Reformation. Catholics are bound to hold to the Apostolic faith, which does not separate the gospel from the life in Christ produced by it’s righteousness.
Do you believe the perfect has already come?
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guanophore
Guest
No. You never received the Apostolic Teaching in this matter. It is not possible to fall away (aposticize) from something to which you were not connected. You stand in the tradition of Apollos.
You make a good point, 2nd. The Truth is not a matter of one’ personal perspective (it is for you, but not for me)… Truth is above all of our perceptions of what is essential, and what is not. Truth is found in the person of Christ. To the extent that anyone has departed from the instructions He gave to the Church, they are away from the Truth. It is not a matter of “in your view” or any human’s view, but from Jesus’ point of view. He was clear “this is my Body”.
No, Adam. It is not for us to decide what is “essential” and what is not. The Faith was delivered whole and entire to the Church. None of it is to be abrogated or marginalized. Once we start cutting parts out, none of it is safe.
We recognize all who are validly baptized, as the Apsotles taught.
J
Janet1983
Guest
So you do not single him out as lost, right? And he cannot be an apostate because he never left any faith…2nd Adam;5830426:
No. You never received the Apostolic Teaching in this matter. It is not possible to fall away (aposticize) from something to which you were not connected. You stand in the tradition of Apollos.
…
We recognize all who are validly baptized, as the Apsotles taught.
So does that mean that you view other Christians who are former Catholics as apostates because they were connected to the CC?
How would you know whether or not their salvation was endangered?
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Hisalone
Guest
PRm could we take any further discussion to this threadAnd, we do indeed teach Jeremiah 31. I told you that it was the marital relationshp between God and His people. See Jeremiah 31:32. God describes himself as our Husband. How 'bout that!
And Hebrews 8:10 sounds like a marriage made in heaven to me.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=258232&page=51
I dont want to hijack this one.
What the Catholic Church has failed to teach is no man will need a teacher all will know God. The CC teaches that one may know Christ in the Eucharist. But there is a Spirit of God that can be known and and through this Spirit one can go directly to te Father once covered with the blood. This same spirit writes Gods laws on the heart. Does the CC teach that?
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PRmerger
Guest
Firstly, a Blessed Sunday to you, Janet! As you go to your services today I ask for your prayers for me, for “the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective”.
Now, on to business:
Janet,* everyone* who has free will’s salvation is “endangered”. If one has a tendency to sin, then he is “endangered”.
From Spe Salvi (Pope B16’s magnficient encylical) "…in hope we were saved, says Saint Paul to the Romans, and likewise to us (Rom 8:24). According to the Christian faith, “redemption”—salvation—is not simply a given. Redemption is offered to us in the sense that we have been given hope, trustworthy hope, by virtue of which we can face our present: the present, even if it is arduous, can be lived and accepted if it leads towards a goal, if we can be sure of this goal, and if this goal is great enough to justify the effort of the journey. "
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Leadee
Guest
My understanding is that the only infallable truth is the Word of God. How is it that the church can decide one day to simply change the meaning of the Words in it? That would mean that God changes and the bible says God is the same yesterday today and forever. I think we need to be extremely careful about putting our trust in man. There has only been one perfect and infallable man on earth to date, and that is Jesus Christ. I believe that’s why he says he is the only way to the Father. If the church leaders are infallable, how do you explain periods such as the dark ages? Even in the bible, in the book of Revelation Jesus reprimanded all but one of the churches. I love the church dearly but no matter who is in it, the real measure of truth comes from the bible through the Holy Spirit, no? In John 16:13 Jesus says - But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. And we know that the Holy Spirit came after Jesus went to be with the Father.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
It seems we are in agreement! It appears you believe in remnant theology too, correct? You have been growing into Augustinianism. Pope Benedict is very Augustinian too!
christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html
**Do the Catholics in ECT right now take the same position on justification as Neuhaus and Dulles? **
Oh yes. There are probably 12 to 13 other Catholic [leaders] who hold that position. And now of course the Pope holds it, so it almost doesn’t matter who else holds it, in the way the Catholic Church is structured.
All shifts that take place in Catholicism happen very gradually. Vatican II was an exception. That’s not the way in which theological development occurs within the catholic communion. It occurs in a gradual process in which the pope, and in this case, a cardinal and a couple priests see a way to express something differently and they would argue that there’s no change.
Of course, if you compare it with Trent, there’s a profound change. But they would see it as the development of doctrine. And if it’s contrary to some church council — as this was, clearly — then nothing happens immediately.
Cardinal [Edward] Cassidy took “The Gift of Salvation”] back to the Vatican in 1997 and was teaching it to the bishops. It sort of percolated through the church, and the Pope, who — significantly — was an Augustinian, picked it up And then a decade later, it ended up in the catechism. That’s just the way change occurs in the Catholic Church.
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emseguin
Guest
**
Oh yes. There are probably 12 to 13 other Catholic [leaders] who hold that position. And now of course the Pope holds it, so it almost doesn’t matter who else holds it, in the way the Catholic Church is structured.
All shifts that take place in Catholicism happen very gradually. Vatican II was an exception. That’s not the way in which theological development occurs within the catholic communion. It occurs in a gradual process in which the pope, and in this case, a cardinal and a couple priests see a way to express something differently and they would argue that there’s no change.
Of course, if you compare it with Trent, there’s a profound change. But they would see it as the development of doctrine. And if it’s contrary to some church council — as this was, clearly — then nothing happens immediately.
Cardinal [Edward] Cassidy took “The Gift of Salvation”] back to the Vatican in 1997 and was teaching it to the bishops. It sort of percolated through the church, and the Pope, who — significantly — was an Augustinian, picked it up And then a decade later, it ended up in the catechism. That’s just the way change occurs in the Catholic Church.
**
What a surprise 2ndAdam!
Another conclusion and interpretation that you know is false and are trying to push a button and be silly.
And another page full of words not from you but from a source interpreted by you.
Hey, are you the next Joseph Smith, I bet you have a denomination or are going to start one!
God be with you,
JMJ
Do the Catholics in ECT right now take the same position on justification as Neuhaus and Dulles?
Oh yes. There are probably 12 to 13 other Catholic [leaders] who hold that position. And now of course the Pope holds it, so it almost doesn’t matter who else holds it, in the way the Catholic Church is structured.
All shifts that take place in Catholicism happen very gradually. Vatican II was an exception. That’s not the way in which theological development occurs within the catholic communion. It occurs in a gradual process in which the pope, and in this case, a cardinal and a couple priests see a way to express something differently and they would argue that there’s no change.
Of course, if you compare it with Trent, there’s a profound change. But they would see it as the development of doctrine. And if it’s contrary to some church council — as this was, clearly — then nothing happens immediately.
Cardinal [Edward] Cassidy took “The Gift of Salvation”] back to the Vatican in 1997 and was teaching it to the bishops. It sort of percolated through the church, and the Pope, who — significantly — was an Augustinian, picked it up And then a decade later, it ended up in the catechism. That’s just the way change occurs in the Catholic Church.
**
What a surprise 2ndAdam!
Another conclusion and interpretation that you know is false and are trying to push a button and be silly.
And another page full of words not from you but from a source interpreted by you.
Hey, are you the next Joseph Smith, I bet you have a denomination or are going to start one!
God be with you,
JMJ
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2nd_Adam
Guest
It’s actually better to be ex-Catholic when sharing the gospel with Catholic siblings since the Council of Trent becomes an applicable discussion. Every time I bring up the anathemas of Trent, Catholics point out it does not apply to me since I was never Catholic.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
It seems we are in agreement! It appears you believe in remnant theology too, correct? You have been growing into Augustinianism. Pope Benedict is very Augustinian too!
christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html
**Do the Catholics in ECT right now take the same position on justification as Neuhaus and Dulles? **
Oh yes. There are probably 12 to 13 other Catholic [leaders] who hold that position. And now of course the Pope holds it, so it almost doesn’t matter who else holds it, in the way the Catholic Church is structured.
All shifts that take place in Catholicism happen very gradually. Vatican II was an exception. That’s not the way in which theological development occurs within the catholic communion. It occurs in a gradual process in which the pope, and in this case, a cardinal and a couple priests see a way to express something differently and they would argue that there’s no change.
Of course, if you compare it with Trent, there’s a profound change. But they would see it as the development of doctrine. And if it’s contrary to some church council — as this was, clearly — then nothing happens immediately.
Cardinal [Edward] Cassidy took “The Gift of Salvation”] back to the Vatican in 1997 and was teaching it to the bishops. It sort of percolated through the church, and the Pope, who — significantly — was an Augustinian, picked it up And then a decade later, it ended up in the catechism. That’s just the way change occurs in the Catholic Church.
Are you familar at all with the Catholics leaders who signed ECT 1 and ECT II? Do you oppose the work that they did? Do you reject the Catholic work linked to my signature? The second link was written by a signer of ECT.
Charles Colson and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus (Lutheran who converted to Catholicism) authored the ecumenical documents Evangelicals and Catholics Together and Evangelicals and Catholics Together II. The approval for the wording was required to come from Cardinal Edward Idris Cassidy, president of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for promoting Christian Unity.
Besides the authors, Charles Colson and Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, the original document was signed in 1994 by:
Professor Peter Kreeft (Roman Catholic);
Rev. Matthew Lamb (Roman Catholic);
Dr. Richard Land # ( Southern Baptist); See: ICES
Dr. Larry Lewis # (Southern Baptist);
Mr. Ralph Martin ( Roman Catholic); See: CNP’s Robert Weiner & Maranatha; Shepherding Movement Connections; General Council Meeting of the Ft. Lauderdale Elders
Dr. Jesse Miranda (Assemblies of God, PK);
Dr. Richard Mouw (Fuller Seminary); Topic: Organizational Paths
Msgr. William Murphy (Roman Catholic);
Rev. Richard Neuhaus (Roman Catholic);
Dr. Mark Noll (Wheaton College);
Mr. Michael Novak; See: CNP Joint Projects : A-D; CNP’s Alan P. Dye, Alan Keyes
Mr. Brian O’Connell (World Evangelical Fellowship);
John Cardinal O’Connor (Roman Catholic);
Dr. Thomas Oden (Methodist);
Professor J.I. Packer (Anglican); See: Institute for Global Engagement & Eastern College; Jay Grimstead
The Rev. Pat Robertson; (PK) See: CNP’s Dr. “M.G.” Pat Robertson
Dr. John Rodgers (Episcopalian);
Mr. Herbert Schossberg; See: CNP’s Howard Ahmanson, Jr
Bishop Carlos Sevilla, S.J. (Roman Catholic);
Archbishop Francis Stafford (Roman Catholic);
Mr. George Weigel; CNP Joint Projects : E-J
Dr. John White #.
There are most likely many others that applied their names in agreement even if they never made it public. As well, one must consider the influence and position each in agreement has with colleagues and congregations.
Evangelicals and Catholics Together II boasts scholars and Christian leaders who endorsed the original 25-page statement in addition to the original authors Colson and Neuhaus.
They include:
Roman Catholics:
Fr. James J. Buckley (Loyola College in Maryland);
Fr. J.A. Di Noia, O.P. (Dominion House of Studies);
Fr. Avery Dulles, S.J. (Fordham University);
Fr. Thomas Guarino (Seton Hall University);
Dr. Peter Kreeft (Boston College);
Fr. Matthew L. Lamb (Boston College);
Fr. Eugene La Verdiere, S.S.S. (Emmanuel);
Fr. Francis Martin (John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family);
Mr. Ralph Martin (Renewal Ministries); See: CNP’s Robert Weiner & Maranatha; Shepherding Movement Connections; General Council Meeting of the Ft. Lauderdale Elders
Fr. Richard John Neuhaus (Religion and Public Life);
Mr Michael Novak (American Enterprise Institute); See: CNP Joint Projects : A-D; CNP’s Alan P. Dye, Alan Keyes
Fr. Edward Oakes, S.J. (Regis University);
Fr. Thomas P. Rausch S.J. (Loyola Marymount University);
Mr George Weigel (Ethics and Public Policy Center); CNP Joint Projects : E-J
Dr. Robert Louis Wilken (University of Virginia).
seekgod.ca/ect.htm
E
emseguin
Guest
Leadee
**
What I think you just said is correct, Luther did decide that and look now!
As you and all the other 40000+ denominations (man) keep changing the text and interpreting it to make it fit whatever denomination and whatever is easiest for the people (praying at home, confessiing sins from home, beliving Jesus is my Lord and Saviour! -EASY! Well, what did Christ come for then, we can do that before Christ came!
You are bang on Leadee! Dont put your trust in man, trust in the Holy Spirit, and His infallibility! His leadership, his Truth!
God Bless!
**
**
What I think you just said is correct, Luther did decide that and look now!
As you and all the other 40000+ denominations (man) keep changing the text and interpreting it to make it fit whatever denomination and whatever is easiest for the people (praying at home, confessiing sins from home, beliving Jesus is my Lord and Saviour! -EASY! Well, what did Christ come for then, we can do that before Christ came!
You are bang on Leadee! Dont put your trust in man, trust in the Holy Spirit, and His infallibility! His leadership, his Truth!
God Bless!
F
fhansen
Guest
The CC teaches that Jesus opened the door so that man can have access to God once more- and that Jer 31 is a prophecy of this New Covenant.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
In Jer 31, isn’t God doing more than just opening the door? Please read what God is causing in His chidlren.
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