do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[prochrist1]

So I guess no one in the NT will be in heaven then since they weren’t Catholic

 

[PRmerger]

As this is from the same source and the way the over 30000 denominations are stratified I can only say one thing: Those who say that there are over 30,000 denominations have to know that over 200 of these “denominations” are Catholic ones and that the criteria used are far too detailed. These numbers are not found using criteria that distinguish denominations…

Yes, 200 of the denominations are Catholic, based on individual countries, but that makes the count 40,000+ minus 200. Still an obscenely large number of denominations, each claiming inspiration by the Holy Spirit, each proclaiming different doctrines, each reading the same Scriptures. (okay, some minus 7 books, acknowledged!) :bigyikes:

 

[PRmerger]

So I guess no one in the NT will be in heaven then since they weren’t Catholic

The first Christians were Catholic, prochrist. See what the early Christians believed–in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, in the papacy, in the Divine Liturgy–all things the Catholics believe today, 2000 years later!

 

[PRmerger]

According to Barrett, a “distinct denomination” is ANY division, including style of music, location of church, and other things that really are NOT divisions associated with the standard “denomination”.

They are indeed “distinct denominations”–doctrinally different.

See just a sampling of the list below of “independent churches”. Each one differs in theology, in “liturgy”, in doctrine, in their Scriptural practices. They are not members of the same church, like the Catholic Church is universal.

You can go to any CC in the world on any given Sunday and you will have the same readings, the same Catechism, the same prayers, the same liturgy.

Not so with this sampling below. And, remember, this is just a sampling of the over 40,000 denominations that have arisen–each of them claim their interpretation of Scripture is is Holy Spirit inspired, yet often teaching contradictory doctrines.

African Independent Apostolic
Black American Apostolic
Filipino Apostolic
Indian Apostolic
another 8 groups have “Apostolic”
African Independent Charismatic
Black American Charismatic
Chinese Charismatic
another 14 groups have “Charismatic” or “Neocharismatic”
African Independent Full Gospel
Black American Full Gospel
Chinese Full Gospel
another 10 groups have “Full Gospel”
three have something-“grassroots”
another 20 groups have “house-church network” or “cell-based network”
five have “Messianic”-something
another 14 are something-“neocharismatic”
another 12 are something-“Oneness pentecostal”
another 18 are something-“pentecostal”
another 12 are something-“radio/TV believers [or “network”]” (i.e. the “pastor” for these independent Christians is some personality on radio or TV)
final 2 on page 17 are something-“Spiritual”
then we have a couple deliverence/pentecostal groups
Word of Faith / Prosperity groups
a couple of “mixed traditions”
some “Zionist” groups
Independent Anglicans or Anglo-Catholic groups in both Catholic and Protestant directions
Independent Adventists
apocalyptic or eschatological (“end times”) groups
Independent Baptists
British-Israelites
Hidden Buddhist believers in Christ
some Independent Orthodox groups
independent Christian Brethren (Plymouth Brethren)
schismatic Conservative Catholics
Independent Congregational, Congregationalists
Independent Disciple, Restorationist, Christian
Independent Dunkers (Tunker, Dipper)
Independent Exclusive Brethren (Closed, Strict)
episcopi vagantes (“wandering” bishops-at-large, very small under 100 members)
Independent Estonian Orthodox
Independent Anglican Evangelical
Independent Fundamentalist
Gay/Lesbian homosexual tradition (i.e. so-called “gay churches” such as Metropolitan Community Churches)
Independent Greek Orthodox
Hidden Hindu believers in Christ
Holiness or Conservative Methodist (non-Pentecostal)
Independent Hungarian Orthodox
Independent Jehovah’s Witnesses
Messianic, Jewish-Christian congregations
Independent “Latin-rite” Catholics
Independent “Liberal” Catholics (Theosophical, Masonic, Gnostic)
another seven Independent Protestant or Orthodox churches
Hidden Muslim believers in Christ
Independent Assyrian or Nestorian
No-Church Movement
Non-denominational (no church or anti-church groups)
Old Believer, Old Ritualist
Old Catholics (i.e. split from Rome after Vatican Council I)
Old Calendarist (Authentic Orthodox)
various schisms from Orthodoxy, in Protestant directions
Orthodox sect/sectarian
Independent Friends (Quakers)
three indy “Reformed” groups (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox)
more Independent Reformed or Orthodox
Independent Spiritualist, spiritists, occultists
Traditionalist Anglicans
True Orthodox (Conservative Russian Orthodox)
Independent Ukrainian Orthodox
United church (various united bodies)
community church or union congregation

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by ronin67
The average protestant? I can asure you that the average protestant 9 times out of 10 will have a better working knowledge of the overall message of the bible when it comes to salvation through Christ by the Grace of God, then the average Catholic.

This is true, but that is not the point PR is making. He is saying that they don’t grasp the kerygma as the Apostles believed and taught it.

Can someone truly be saved and reconciled to God if they do not understand the gospel? Mental ascent alone cannot save us. However, mental ascent is still necessary for saving faith, in addition to the work of the Spirit.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
1 Cor 15

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” Romans 1:16-17

 

[ronin67]

A lessen to be learned from the Reformation is that hypocrisy is an all-too-easy-to-acquire human trait. In fact it’s one we’re all guaranteed at least some share in, due to the fall. But the Church should be held to a higher account and she was definitely responsible for not reigning in abuses during Luther’s time-as she has been in recent times for other reasons as well. But this merely means that she hasn’t always learned from-or heeded-her own gospel so well-not that her gospel message itself is in error.

And to imply that human rebellion from the other side (pride on the Reformer’s and their follower’s part) had nothing to do with the Reformation is to misinterpret the event. The Reformers ended up throwing the baby out with the bath water. So now the CC considers Protestants to be “separated brethern”: Christians, but imperfectly united to the true Church (and true doctrine) from which they separated. The CC is in continuous need of reform and renewal, like us all-because we’re her Body.

Agreed. We all need to fix many things we do.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[ronin67]

1. To qwell the part about the Holy Mother Mary, even if she didn’t have any children after Christ Jesus, does she have anything to do with receiving salvation other then the fact she brought our Lord and Savior into this world? Is salvation obtained through Mary? If not then why all the elevation in the Catholic Church of Mary? After the birth of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, you hardly hear anything in the bible about Mary that is on the level of significance of her giving birth to out Savior Jesus Christ. Yes, she was the most rightous woman that ever walked the face of the earth, but to elevate her to the level the Catholic church does is not of the scripture. Christ Jesus is the main focus of our attention for eternal salvation. Mary is not a Redemdrix. I don’t need her or any of the saints to intercede on my behalf. I can go directly to God, through Christ to ask for forgiveness. Stop trying to justify actions that aren’t in Bible. When I walk into a Catholic Chuch the only statue or symbol I should be seeing is the Cruxifix of Christ of the cross on the alter (or above which ever the case may be). When I look to the right and see a statue of Mary with a big rosary hanging around it, I wonder to myself if Mary came back today, would she approve?? In the scripture St. Paul and St. Peter didn’t elevate Mary to the level the Catholic church does. WHY??? After all St. Peter was the first Pope. It should have been a priority right?
2. Also, your friend who provided scripture verses to justify leaving the Catholic Church? What verse may that be? I was asking what scripture verse did YOU show him that what he was doing was not in concurrance with the Holy Bible. Again, what actions did you and other Catholic members due to save this poor soul from being an apostate fallen from the Catholic Church?
3. There you go again, hearing scripture from the priest just once a week. Not good enough. My example, I want to be a real good baseball player, but the only time I get practice is at the actual game. No need to sharpen my skills with practice before the game. You are not making sense. Do Catholics really think not reading the bible is OK? Are they afraid someone will read the scripture and see that some of the Catholic practices are not scripture founded??? Yes, keep them in the dark so no one will question.
   Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[guanophore]

Pope Boniface says you have to be in submission to the Roman Pontiff. He and Eugene exclude Muslims, Jews, pagans and also at that time Eastern Catholics. They were not in submission to the pope.

The Church has always taught baptism of desire which maybe Eugene and Boniface didn’t know about?

“…unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

I already quoted the catechism on Jews, Muslims and people who seek God with a sincere heart. They can be saved while not in submission to the Roman Pontiff. It’s a definite contradiction in what the Church has always taught.

You are confusing the writings of individual Popes with the infallible teaching of Jesus. Many popes (and others, including saints) have made expressions that reflect their opinions, and are not the infallible teaching of the Church. It is necessary to consider the source, as well as the historical context of the statements. A pope can have a personal opinion that is not an infallible doctrine of the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

1. To qwell the part about the Holy Mother Mary, even if she didn’t have any children after Christ Jesus, does she have anything to do with receiving salvation other then the fact she brought our Lord and Savior into this world? Is salvation obtained through Mary? If not then why all the elevation in the Catholic Church of Mary?

Because each and every doctrine about Mary reinforces and affirms the doctrines of Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

Also, your friend who provided scripture verses to justify leaving the Catholic Church? What verse may that be? I was asking what scripture verse did YOU show him that what he was doing was not in concurrance with the Holy Bible. Again, what actions did you and other Catholic members due to save this poor soul from being an apostate fallen from the Catholic Church?

You misread my post. I did not say he was my friend, nor did I say he left the CC. I said he left a Mega church. One of those HUGE Christian churches–you know the kind with an auditorium, 2 GIGANTIC screens to show off the band and choir where the main focus is the pastor’s 2 hour sermon.

Do Catholics really think not reading the bible is OK?

Yup, Catholics really think reading the bible is ok! In fact, we get an indulgence for doing so! How 'bout *that! *

And, since the CC gave you the Scriptures, it’s kind of ironic that you would ask if we’re supposed to read the very thing we gave you.

 

[guanophore]

 As stated in a earlier post, petty differences between ceremonial procedings is exactly what it is, petty and if a person decides to start his own church based on this, that is foolish (agree with you 100%).

Actually I think it is generally about people getting their feelings hurt.

However if they change anything that is stated in the Holy Bible and break away because they don't like what God's inspired word says.  Well, we both know they are wrong.  Their are alot of crazy churches that pop up on the Protestant side, but to say they are all missing the mark, is incorrect also.

But the reason they are wrong is because of the very standard you are applying, which is erroneous. There are as many perceptions in scripture about what the bible says as there are belly buttons. Everyone interprets according to his own perceptions, experience, and education (or lack thereof). That is why there are so many different understandings of what has been written.

Look I know the mind set of the Catholic church when it comes to the one true church, but will the Father deny someone who has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior entrance to Heaven because they are not Catholic?

There is only one Church, and all who are members of Christ are members of the One Body, which is the Church. To the extent that a person has accepted Christ, they are members of the One Body, the Church.

Yes, the Holy Bible says Christ is the Head of the one true church. Look at it this way, just because the Catholic Church was the first Christian church formed, does that automatically make it THEE one true church??? Can other Churches fall into the catagory of the one true church?

Jesus only founded one. All the others are founded by men.

Or did God really mean that any Church that follows my divine inspired words and accepts my son as their Lord and savior, be the one true church (kind of like the mystery of the Holy Trinity, three distinct beings, yet all are God)?? You and me as mere humans that can never fully understand the extent of the Grace of God, nor should we dellusion ourselves thinking we do know God’s intent inside and out.

True, but we do know what has been revealed to us. That is that He founded His One Church upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets. Once men departed from the Apostolic succession, they became separated from the foundation.

Would the one true church make mistakes like the Catholic Church did in the early days by making people pay for forgiveness, the Spanish inquisition, etc.

The church made no such mistakes.

The bottom line; Pride of the Catholic Church refuses to accept Protestants as equals in Christ becuase they believe they are the one true church because they were the first Christian Church and Pride on the Protestant side refuses to bow down to Catholic Doctrine that doesn’t always go stricly by the scripture (Protestants still don’t get the excessive elevation of Mother Mary and some of the other practices).

No, it is not pride to acknowledge what God has said is true. the Scriptures were never intended to the the pillar and foundation of the Truth. If they were, then there would have been no foundation upon which Christ could build, because the formation of His Church predated the entire NT.

So how do we fix it my fellow man in Christ??? Keep the division or come to a ageement as long as the truth of the scripture is preached, per the Holy Bible?

Your standard of unity is in error. Jesus said that unity would happen when all were in Him, as He is in the father. This is not something that occurs in scripture, but within the heart. One must embrace the Apsotolic Teaching, then one will automatically be in unity with the One True Church.

 

[ronin67]

Because each and every doctrine about Mary reinforces and affirms the doctrines of Christ.

Not needed if it elevates Mary to equal status with Christ. She is not of equal status with Christ. The witnesses of Jesus Christ through the scripture is all that is needed to testify of the undisputed validity of Jesus Christ. Catholics adding a extra step that is not needed. If St. Paul and St. Peter didn’t elevate Mary, why does the Catholic Church do this? There is no biblical answer or Catholic answer that would justify biblical elevation of the Mother Mary. Yes, the line where Elizabeth says you will be remembered as the most rightous of all women. Key word “REMEMBERED” not worshipped. I do remember her and will always remember her as being the most rightous woman that ever walked the face of the earth. Without her Christ wouldn’t have came and we would be lost in sin forever. After the birth of Christ, the focus shifts to Christ our redeeming savior. The question remains, does Mary give eternal salvation???

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[guanophore]

The Bible didn’t say the Catholic Church was the body. It said the church was the body (their you go thinking its just the Catholic Church again). You guys are so silly. Salvation through Christ and anyone who practices, preaches, and promotes this biblical truth is the true church (the body of Christ).

Take Care and God Bless!

Ed

the Bible says there is only one church. The bible calls that Church Catholic.

It is not silly to embrace the Teachings of the Apostles. The Church was not founded upon the Bible, but upon the Apostles and prophets. To them was given the responsibility and power to interpret what was written correctly. When one departs from what they taught, as all Protestant denomiations do, one departs from the One Faith committted once for all to the Church.

 

[guanophore]

 That was tough.  Again, no denying the Catholic Church was first, but first doesn't mean the only true church.

Jesus only founded One Church.

 the Catholic church in getting the ball rolling and spreading the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  However, since then, many other denominations on the Protestant side have done the same thing as the Catholic church did back then.  So are the Protestants who are teaching the same truth that the Catholic church teaches any less saved then those in the Catholic church?

No. Alll Protestant Churches are defined by the degree and manner in which they differ from Catholicism. None of htem teach teh same truth that we received from the Apostles. If they did, they would no longer be protestant!

 NO!  Again any church that teaches and preaches the truth of the Gospels is the true church.  Catholics and Protestants united for Christ.  WOW, that would be great!

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

Your are using a false standard upon which to base your notion of unity. Scripture can only be understood properly when it is interpreted in the light of what the Apostles believed and taugtht. All Protestants depart from this to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[PRmerger]

Not needed if it elevates Mary to equal status with Christ. She is not of equal status with Christ.

That is very Catholic of you to say that, Ed!

The witnesses of Jesus Christ through the scripture is all that is needed to testify of the undisputed validity of Jesus Christ.

Do you have a Scripture verse for that? Chapter and verse, please.

Yes, the line where Elizabeth says you will be remembered as the most rightous of all women.

Indeed. All generations shall call her blessed. I hope that you remember to call Mary “blessed” whenever you think of her.

I wonder how it is that “Bible-Christians” are able to acknowledge exactly the right amount of “blessedness” she deserves, but Catholics over-do it.

Key word “REMEMBERED” not worshipped.

Yup. Catholics do not worship Mary. We worship God alone.

 

[guanophore]

These are the Vicars of Christ making infallible statements:

Ron, a pope does not act every moment and in every expression as the vicar of Christ. He sits in the chair of St. Peter, but that does not mean that he is impeccable (without fault) anymore than Peter was without fault. When a Pope teaches ex-cathedra, then we accept this as infallible (protected from error by the HS). Many Popes have made many statements that are not infallible.

 

[ron77nyc]

You are confusing the writings of individual Popes with the infallible teaching of Jesus. Many popes (and others, including saints) have made expressions that reflect their opinions, and are not the infallible teaching of the Church. It is necessary to consider the source, as well as the historical context of the statements. A pope can have a personal opinion that is not an infallible doctrine of the Church.

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ORDIN.TXT
THE FOUR TESTS OF INFALLIBILIY There are, clearly, four tests of infallibility: The Pope must be (1) intending to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority (3) a matter of Faith or morals (4) to be held by the universal Church.

This one passes the four tests.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

jimmyakin.org/2004/06/two_instances_o.html
Consequently, the verb “define” has come to be used as a trigger word for infallible papal statements. If you see a pope say “we define” or “I define,” it is a signal that he is making a definition and thus exercising the Church’s gift of infallibility. (This is not the only way in which he can do this, but it is the standard way.)

This one has the verb define.

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

 

[ronin67]

That is very Catholic of you to say that, Ed!

Do you have a Scripture verse for that? Chapter and verse, please.

Indeed. All generations shall call her blessed. I hope that you remember to call Mary “blessed” whenever you think of her.

I wonder how it is that “Bible-Christians” are able to acknowledge exactly the right amount of “blessedness” she deserves, but Catholics over-do it.

Yup. Catholics do not worship Mary. We worship God alone.

I wonder how it is that “Bible-Christians” are able to acknowledge exactly the right amount of “blessedness” she deserves, but Catholics over-do it.

Yes, you guys have to stop overdoing it. What were you people thinking?

Yup. Catholics do not worship Mary. We worship God alone.

Then stop with all the statues already. You guys are really into the statue thing.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[emseguin]

Dear Ed,

You seem really bothered by Mary
You know who is MOST bothered by Mary, that One who leads people to be bothered???

**

Not needed if it elevates Mary to equal status with Christ. She is not of equal status with Christ.

**
You are stating this, no one else, no one said this, you interprest this silly sentence.
We Catholics do not have her as equal with Christ, but an important figure that leads us to Him, the closest to Christ my friend, is HIS MOTHER!
We honor her who was so intimately connected with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Yes, there is only one Mediator with the Father — Jesus Christ. Only the God-Man Jesus Christ could have redeemed mankind. Nevertheless, we pray to Mary that she may intercede for us with her Divine Son.
How often we request the assistance of prayers from our fellow men — how much more powerful are the prayers and intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

**

Catholics adding a extra step that is not needed. If St. Paul and St. Peter didn’t elevate Mary, why does the Catholic Church do this?

**

Mary became their mother, as Christ said “Woman behold your son, son, behold your mother” Christ left us a mother, gave us the gift of mother, to guide us to Him, to lead us to Him. - BIBLICAL ELEVATION ENOUGH for a new born, or an animal without any understand.
Mary, dear Ed, is all about Christ. You CANNOT have one without the other. Mary’s role is to lead us to Christ. Key word ROLE. Not, she IS Christ, or on par with or anything else you will try and interpret. role.

the line where Elizabeth says you will be remembered as the most rightous of all women.

Please provide the quote and the source.

Key word “REMEMBERED” not worshipped.

Where do you get worshipped from? Many Protestants assume we worship because we love and use Our Mother as an intermediary.
You know well we do not worship, you are fishing for something, it obvious.

**

The question remains, does Mary give eternal salvation???

**
You know the answer to this, and you know that we do not believe she gives eternal salvation.

She is however, from the beginning of time, Our Mother, with a very important ROLE. Chosen by GOD, to be the Mother of Christ.
If you decide not not acknoweldge her as important, well then you are saying to God, thanks for he giving birth to Christ, but thats it!

Book of Genesis (3:15): “I will put enmities between thee and **the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” **

She is the new Eve, and you say we dont read the Scriptures!
The doctrine of Mary’s spiritual motherhood of men is contained in the fact that she is the antitype of Eve: Eve is our natural mother because she is the origin of our natural life; so Mary is our spiritual mother because she is the origin of our spiritual life.
Just as Eve cooperated with Adam in the Fall of mankind, the Blessed Virgin Mary cooperated with Jesus Christ in our redemption. She “stood by the Cross of Jesus.” What anguish, what sorrow did the Mother of Jesus experience at the foot of the Cross as she witnessed the sufferings and death of her Divine Son!

In both accounts, Jesus addressed Mary by the term woman. In Hebrew the word used by Jesus was a term which would be addressed to a queen or a woman of high rank. It was a term of great respect.

But why did Jesus Christ address His Mother by the term woman at these two significant moments in His life — at His first public miracle, and at His Crucifixion on the Cross?

Our Divine Lord wanted to clearly indicate that His Mother was the Woman spoken of in the Book of Genesis:

“I will put enmities between thee (Satan) and the Woman, between thy seed and her seed, and she shall crush thy head.”

Ed - Who is the “woman” in the text of Holy Scripture of whom Almighty God set enmities against Satan? Who is “her seed”? What is meant by the words “and she shall crush thy head”?

There is no Protestant interpretation that makes sense to refute this.

Peace of Christ, may Mother Mary wrap you in her arms
JMJ

 

[emseguin]

And ronin and Ed,

You talk of statues, yet what is the focus in the 40000+ protestant Churches?
The music? or the man at the front with the big screen and microphone?
Or is it the empty cross without the Corpus.

The Catholic Church contains Christ, living in the Blessed Sacrament, that is our focus. and then what happens is the Life, death and ressurection, of Christ, is re-lived EVERYDAY, in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

No matter what, based on that, with a statue of Mother Mary on the side, and the Sacred heart of Jesus on the other, and St. Joseph maybe someone in the back, well, we have Christ, physically there. And your 40000 churches are empty.
You go to listen to a man in a suit and tie, or jeans, sing some songs about being saved and go home.
I think SUBSTANCE is missing, yes, I think the body, blood, soul and dibity of Christ is missing.

Mother Mary statue bothers you so much, like I said, it bothers Someone first and that someone loves to bother others with her…

The Lord bless and keep you
JMJ