Do you think Trump was protected by God - to save the USA?

[po18guy]

Naming no one. Regardless of what the social justice Catholics (Democrats) maintain, a dedicated suicidal shooter, well equipped, and given free reign over at least two hours, and firing several shots, did not take out such a "silver platter" target. For all the love they preach, they sure love to hate certain persons. Persons who have done more for the Catholic Church in the USA than all US presidents combined. Especially the infamous "Catholic" presidents.

Ideology is as ideology does.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Naming no one. Regardless of what the social justice Catholics (Democrats) maintain, a dedicated suicidal shooter, well equipped, and given free reign over at least two hours, and firing several shots, did not take out such a "silver platter" target. For all the love they preach, they sure love to hate certain persons. Persons who have done more for the Catholic Church in the USA than all US presidents combined. Especially the infamous "Catholic" presidents.

Ideology is as ideology does.

For all his many flaws, Trump appears very favorable to Catholicism and holds the Church in great esteem. He is said to have a statue of St Michael the Archangel on his desk. He will probably never be accused of have a deep knowledge of theology, but he is in no way, shape, or form, an enemy of the Catholic Church. Quite the contrary.

I pray for his conversion, which is far from impossible.

 

[DaveBj]

I'm done with it. If the Republicans want to earn my vote, they can run a better candidate. Ditto the Democrats. I'm sick of - and done with - wasting my conscience at the polls.

Me too. Alabama is going to go big-time for Trump, and my single vote will not have any impact at all, so I am going to vote my conscience. I don't want to come out of our community center holding my nose, so I am going to vote in the lower races, but unless something changes my mind, I'm going to skip the presidential part of the ballot.

As to whether or not Trump's life was miraculously preserved, I'm going to pass on that question. Bad things do happen to good people, and undeserving people do escape from deadly circumstances. All the time.

Dxx

 

[po18guy]

For all his many flaws, Trump appears very favorable to Catholicism and holds the Church in great esteem. He is said to have a statue of St Michael the Archangel on his desk. He will probably never be accused of have a deep knowledge of theology, but he is in no way, shape, or form, an enemy of the Catholic Church. Quite the contrary.

I pray for his conversion, which is far from impossible.

His wife is Catholic. His VP candidate is Catholic. Two of his Supreme Court appointments are Catholic, one Episcopalian. He is, at least for the most part, pro-life. He immediately rescinded the oppressive and immoral Obama mandate that religious orders pay for abortions. In that single move, he did more for the US Catholic Church, and for morality, than any US president. Ever.

Cowardly liberal Catholics remained silent while "privately" opposing Obama's mandate to pay for the killing of the unborn. How generous of them! Leftist ideologues, some of whom claim to be Catholic, HATE him with a visceral hatred. I have been watching the 'type' since the late 60s. If he ran as a (D) candidate, all sins would be swept under the rug - if they ever came to light in the first place.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

His wife is Catholic. His VP candidate is Catholic. Two of his Supreme Court appointments are Catholic, one Episcopalian. He is, at least for the most part, pro-life. He immediately rescinded the oppressive and immoral Obama mandate that religious orders pay for abortions. In that single move, he did more for the US Catholic Church, and for morality, than any US president. Ever.

I think one day he'll convert. He's pretty much a blank slate as far as religion is concerned, and sometimes that's a good thing.

 

[antiSatan5]

I phrased that clumsily. What I meant was that Trump is not in a position where he would be living conjugally with a woman who is not his wife in the Eyes of God.

Ivana is deceased, so whether her marriage to Trump was valid or not, is beside the point. Marla is still living, so (a) if Trump and Ivana were validly married, then there was no marriage to Marla, or (b) if Trump and Ivana were not validly married (Ivana was Catholic), then both Marla and Trump were free to marry one another, neither was Catholic, therefore their marriage would be presumed valid.

If (a) were the case, then Melania and Trump's marriage could easily be convalidated by the Church (Melania is Catholic), as Ivana is deceased, and if (b) were the case, it really wouldn't matter, as I seriously doubt Melania and Trump are intimate anymore (a Josephite marriage is a celibate one), and they seem to live separate lives (while Trump was President, Melania and Barron lived with her parents in suburban Maryland).

The Catholic Church, "true" or otherwise, would have no need to validate Trump's marriage to Marla, as neither one was Catholic and it was therefore putatively valid, if he and Ivana were not married in the Church (see above). So far as I am aware, Marla had no previous marriages.

TLDR, if Trump became Catholic, there would be no obstacle to his receiving confirmation, the Eucharist, or the sacrament of penance, as long as he did not live conjugally with Melania, in the event his marriage to Melania couldn't be convalidated.

well, that was interesting. I got stuck on something, though. If Trump was not validly married to Maples, and it looks like he wasn't bc Ivana was still alive, then... I mean, why would the Church validate a marriage not done in the Catholic Church if said putative marriage should not have happened anyway.. ?

I hope I worded that properly.. I am just trying to become clear on this whole thing, which I never thought about until I came to this forum..

 

[antiSatan5]

It would violate my conscience not to mitigate the evil with the less-bad choice.

The mainstream media is on a sugar high right now over Kamala Harris. This may pass.

You should (everyone here should) watch the You Tube video called: Can Kamala Recover from This Judge..

this judge knows her well and says she made a lot of politically-motivated decisions, letting off 1200 people indicted for a bank scam, yet convicted many young Blacks of simple marijuana possession. If I were to guess, I'd say she doesn't like Black men at all. She herself is NOT Black. I believe her mother was White, father Jamaican.. but of course not all Jamaicans are one skin color, so what does that even mean? But anyhow, she doesn't appear to like non-elite blacks.

 

[antiSatan5]

Some of the world's most brutal dictators have survived multiple assassination attempts. Was that also a case of divine intervention?

I don't like what Trump allegedly said to his nephew. I've watched more than 1/2 of this video and all I can think of is this

No matter Trump's faults, HE is the best person to lead this country. And I don't understand people who let their emotions dictate how they will vote. Doesn't this guy realize what will happen to this country under Harris, who is just another biden/obama, etc...? Don't people realize the Ds are virtual communists now? They are GOD-less. They believe in murdering children in the womb up to the 9th month.

For God's sake.. Isn't that

Enough said?

No, this nephew is on the WRONG track.

 

[antiSatan5]

Officials watched the "troubled loner" wander around the building for TWO HOURS. Those charged with an individual's safety, were neither secret nor did they serve. Their failure is both cultural and systemic.

On Fox we were told y/day that 41% of Americans say the govt was involved w/ the shooting.

And the other 59% or thereabouts likely suspect it

 

[antiSatan5]

Then why did you ask the question?

Those of us who see this level of hero-worship for the pernicious action that it is simply won't be able to accept your narrative of divine intervention.

Oh please. I support Trump because I love my country and want it to remain a Christ-centered or at least Christ-accepting nation.

I'm sick of Catholics and other Christians being put down and vilified.. tired of the talk about forcing Catholics to do abortions at hospitals.. etc


etc etc...............

 

[antiSatan5]

Me too. Alabama is going to go big-time for Trump, and my single vote will not have any impact at all, so I am going to vote my conscience. I don't want to come out of our community center holding my nose, so I am going to vote in the lower races, but unless something changes my mind, I'm going to skip the presidential part of the ballot.

As to whether or not Trump's life was miraculously preserved, I'm going to pass on that question. Bad things do happen to good people, and undeserving people do escape from deadly circumstances. All the time.

Dxx

That last line is true. But it is very wrong not to vote and it is wrong to see nothing but faults in others. And frankly, I believe that a lot of people who act like they are too holy to vote because the candidates are not perfect (no, I am not talking about you, just people in general) are just virtue signally, acting like they are above it all or something.

To not vote is to cast a vote for the greater of 2 evils.

That doesn't sound like something Jesus would approve of, esp since abortion is STILL not illegal, as it was 50 years ago and had been all throughout history

 

[antiSatan5]

I think one day he'll convert. He's pretty much a blank slate as far as religion is concerned, and sometimes that's a good thing.

He probably doen'st convert bc if he did so right now, the whole "kennedy-esque thing" would rear its ugly head. . the old "Is he going to follow the pope or stick to American principles" argument.

Well, the problem has been solved in the view of the Sedevacantists (and again, I've found zero flaws in their arguments) because apparently we haven't had a valid pope since Pius XII. Maybe Trump, smart as he is, sees a lot of chaos in Catholicism these days and .. well, right now he has a country to save.

And no, that is FAR from an exaggeration (I say to all the anti-Trump folks out there)

 

[antiSatan5]

Yes, that's what I meant, I am assuming that Trump was baptized as an infant, Marla, presumably baptized at some point in her life (whether she was when she and Trump married, I can't say), therefore even at the very least, they would have a natural marriage, and if both were baptized at the time of the marriage, a sacramental one.

Non-Catholics are not bound by canonical form for marriage, and if they were free to marry at the time of the wedding, it is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise.

I just wonder if the Trads have this view that you are putting forth? My guess is the Sedevacantists have a different view. They may say that all non Catholic, sacramental marriages are invalid? I don't know.. I've talked to Sedes b4 but not on that topic

 

[HomeschoolDad]

well, that was interesting. I got stuck on something, though. If Trump was not validly married to Maples, and it looks like he wasn't bc Ivana was still alive, then... I mean, why would the Church validate a marriage not done in the Catholic Church if said putative marriage should not have happened anyway.. ?

I hope I worded that properly.. I am just trying to become clear on this whole thing, which I never thought about until I came to this forum..

Let me take this in order:

First, Ivana was previously married to another man. Ivana was a Catholic, ergo bound by canonical form (in plain English, she had to get married in the Church, for any marriage of hers to be valid).

If that first marriage was valid, then she could not validly marry Donald (I'll use first names to keep the narrative consistent).

But even if that first marriage was not valid, she apparently married Donald outside the Church (Marble Collegiate Church in NYC). Unless she had some sort of dispensation to marry in a Protestant ceremony (which I doubt), Ivana's marriage to Donald would be invalid for that reason. That would have left Donald free to marry Marla.

Neither Donald nor Marla were Catholics and, assuming Donald's marriage to Ivana was invalid, they were not bound by canonical form and could validly marry in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Assuming a non-Catholic is free to marry (no prior valid marriage), as I always say, a Presbyterian and a Muslim (or a Jew, or a Hindu or even another non-Catholic Christian) could be married by the Dalai Lama in a hot-air balloon floating over the Napa Valley, and the Catholic Church would regard that marriage as valid.

Therefore Donald would not have been free to marry Melania, but even if he had been, their marriage would not be valid because Melania is Catholic and she apparently did not have a dispensation from canonical form.

Absent any unusual information, it appears that Donald and Marla are validly married.

 

[antiSatan5]

Let me take this in order:

First, Ivana was previously married to another man. Ivana was a Catholic, ergo bound by canonical form (in plain English, she had to get married in the Church, for any marriage of hers to be valid).

If that first marriage was valid, then she could not validly marry Donald (I'll use first names to keep the narrative consistent).

But even if that first marriage was not valid, she apparently married Donald outside the Church (Marble Collegiate Church in NYC). Unless she had some sort of dispensation to marry in a Protestant ceremony (which I doubt), Ivana's marriage to Donald would be invalid for that reason. That would have left Donald free to marry Marla.

Neither Donald nor Marla were Catholics and, assuming Donald's marriage to Ivana was invalid, they were not bound by canonical form and could validly marry in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Assuming a non-Catholic is free to marry (no prior valid marriage), as I always say, a Presbyterian and a Muslim (or a Jew, or a Hindu or even another non-Catholic Christian) could be married by the Dalai Lama in a hot-air balloon floating over the Napa Valley, and the Catholic Church would regard that marriage as valid.

Therefore Donald would not have been free to marry Melania, but even if he had been, their marriage would not be valid because Melania is Catholic and she apparently did not have a dispensation from canonical form.

Absent any unusual information, it appears that Donald and Marla are validly married.

Well, I have many questions. Is what you are sayng here what the novus ordo Church teaches and/or what the Trad Catholic Churches teach.. SSPX.. FSSP and the Sedevacantists?

I had no idea Ivana was married before Trump! I had never heard of that. so that definitely muddies things up.

Anyhow.. these days you have to do research to be Catholic, and I'm thinking: extensive research.. Sigh.. I miss the good old days when things were simple and clear. I mean, you have 3 different "branches" of Catholic Church these days. I went to a FSSP Mass once and didn't like certain pics on the wall because I'm basically a Sede (until I learn facts that take me away from that). So I began to feel like I wasn't @ home. I actually have felt at home in NO Masses, despite all the criticism the NO gets from Sedes..

If I sound confused, it's because part of me is...

Also, is this kind of thing the reason Melania does not live with Trump?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Well, I have many questions. Is what you are sayng here what the novus ordo Church teaches and/or what the Trad Catholic Churches teach.. SSPX.. FSSP and the Sedevacantists?

I had no idea Ivana was married before Trump! I had never heard of that. so that definitely muddies things up.

Anyhow.. these days you have to do research to be Catholic, and I'm thinking: extensive research.. Sigh.. I miss the good old days when things were simple and clear. I mean, you have 3 different "branches" of Catholic Church these days. I went to a FSSP Mass once and didn't like certain pics on the wall because I'm basically a Sede (until I learn facts that take me away from that). So I began to feel like I wasn't @ home. I actually have felt at home in NO Masses, despite all the criticism the NO gets from Sedes..

If I sound confused, it's because part of me is...

Also, is this kind of thing the reason Melania does not live with Trump?

The standards for marriage validity are the same regardless of whatever ideological camp one falls into (i.e., Catholics have to marry according to canonical form, and cannot validly marry someone who has a prior living spouse and no annulment), however, those who reject Vatican II also reject the expanded reasons for annulment that we've seen in recent years. Prior to the Vatican II era, annulments were incredibly difficult to get, and were only granted for a handful of reasons which most people would never encounter.

I don't know why Melania doesn't live with Donald, assuming she doesn't. At present, I thought she, Donald, and Barron all lived at Mar-A-Lago. While Donald was president, I'm guessing that she wanted a more normal life for Barron, and thus she and Barron lived in the Maryland suburbs with her Slovenian-born parents. That was probably a fairly ordinary home life, as ordinary as it could be, anyway.

 

[antiSatan5]

The standards for marriage validity are the same regardless of whatever ideological camp one falls into (i.e., Catholics have to marry according to canonical form, and cannot validly marry someone who has a prior living spouse and no annulment), however, those who reject Vatican II also reject the expanded reasons for annulment that we've seen in recent years. Prior to the Vatican II era, annulments were incredibly difficult to get, and were only granted for a handful of reasons which most people would never encounter.

I don't know why Melania doesn't live with Donald, assuming she doesn't. At present, I thought she, Donald, and Barron all lived at Mar-A-Lago. While Donald was president, I'm guessing that she wanted a more normal life for Barron, and thus she and Barron lived in the Maryland suburbs with her Slovenian-born parents. That was probably a fairly ordinary home life, as ordinary as it could be, anyway.

so you learned something (?) about Trump (he and M don't live together.. maybe) and I learned something from you
that Ivana was married to someone b4 Trump.. I still have a hard time believing that. I read a book she wrote and.. well, maybe I just didn't think about it much but I don't remember reading about a prior marriage. Maybe she left that out bc she didn't want to blab about it.. or maybe it was so short lived, it only got a paragraph and I didn't happen to read that one.. .or something lol

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Here is a report from a fairly mainstream newspaper (Hong Kong):

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/styl...ivana-trumps-4-ex-husbands-she-and-donald-had

The first marriage to Mr Winklmayr seems to have been one of convenience. I would be very surprised if it was according to canonical form. In any event it was, so Ivana claimed, never consummated (ratum sed non consummatum), so it could have been dissolved by the Holy See even if it was a canonical form marriage.

 

[antiSatan5]

Here is a report from a fairly mainstream newspaper (Hong Kong):

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/styl...ivana-trumps-4-ex-husbands-she-and-donald-had

The first marriage to Mr Winklmayr seems to have been one of convenience. I would be very surprised if it was according to canonical form. In any event it was, so Ivana claimed, never consummated (ratum sed non consummatum), so it could have been dissolved by the Holy See even if it was a canonical form marriage.

Thanks.

Protestants (some) seem to think we Catholics are hung up on ritual and rigid religious practices but it seems Jesus was pretty clear about valid and invalid marriages..

 

[blackforest]

Me too. Alabama is going to go big-time for Trump, and my single vote will not have any impact at all, so I am going to vote my conscience. I don't want to come out of our community center holding my nose, so I am going to vote in the lower races, but unless something changes my mind, I'm going to skip the presidential part of the ballot.

As to whether or not Trump's life was miraculously preserved, I'm going to pass on that question. Bad things do happen to good people, and undeserving people do escape from deadly circumstances. All the time.

Dxx

Yup - I'm in a similar situation here. Good to see you here, btw.