Do you/would you carry a concealed firearm to Mass?

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Yes that’s what I meant by “law enforcement”. Designated professional guards are around and armed, but the Pope himself and the general laity aren’t…
 
twf said:
I have no issue with police being armed at Mass.
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Interesting, as you also said this…“I mean the principal of it… the symbolism of approaching the Holy of Holies ready to kill… even if for a just cause.”

Why does that principle not apply in the case of police?
 
Can you honestly see Pope Francis encouraging the laity to come to Mass armed? I find many of the Holy Father’s personal opinions to be too “left” for me, and compared to people on this thread I am a raging Marxist. For one moment take a step back from the very specifically conservative American culture that permeates this thread. Catholics in Canada, Europe and the rest of the developed world are flabbergasted by such suggestions. It’s a non-starter. Not even on the radar of discussions.
Police are an obvious exception universally accepted by societies where law and order prevail. It’s not ideal, but it is expected that they will be armed wherever they go (if on duty).
 
Concealed armament may or may not be noticed or noticable. There have been several times at Mass and other Church activities (Stations of the Cross etc) that police and related have attended wearing firearms. Not concealed… wearing them. I have no problem with that. They are attending service. They are respectful.

Honrstly, if I identified some of the responders to this thread “packing heat” to protect me and fellow paritioners, at Mass I would change Parishes.
 
twf said:
Can you honestly see Pope Francis encouraging the laity to come to Mass armed?
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Are the Swiss Guard clerics? Most would consider them to be members of the laity
Police are an obvious exception universally accepted by societies where law and order prevail. It’s not ideal, but it is expected that they will be armed wherever they go (if on duty).
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So are you claiming that premise was mistaken, and the symbolism of coming to the Holy of Holies prepared to kill is not present when the cause is just.

Where do the police get their authority to be armed, other than from the people themselves? If the people also retain elements of that authority for themselves, is they cause any less just?
 
I don’t believe that’s entirely true… Firearm ownership is legal in Canada but Far more regulated than in the States.
 
I stand by my premise as an ideal but acknowledge that there may be reasonable exceptions required in some cases. Most developed societies would see law enforcement officers as the obvious exception.

Even in secular contexts… I would be creeped out and immediately leave the train if I was commuting to work one morning here in Vancouver and noted a passenger with a pistol hanging from his belt. On the other hand, police are visibly armed. I was raised to trust police officers - so seeing their guns is reassuring rather than frightening.
 
upant said:
as london is now considered more violent than new york.

and the uk has another gun amnesty going on.

outside of our big cities we are pretty safe and in the big cities it is only certain neighborhoods you need to be concerned with.
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I have to say that I have not felt threatened walking around either London or New York. I am well aware of the huge cut backs in the police budgets in the UK. Walking around the streets late at night, I have witnessed the growing absence of police officers on our streets.

However, on the subject of guns, I would not like to see the introductions of gun ownership in the UK, as a means of self defence. I dread to think what would happen when drunks go to a pub armed, they seem to loose all sense of reality. I could easily see someone being shot as opposed to just being punched.
 
jfz178 said:
The people coming for Jesus could have shown up in attack mode, ready to kill Him and the Apostles on the spot. If they had, the use of swords would have been justified and the Apostles would have wished they had followed Jesus’ command to the letter and ALL gotten swords.
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The command from Jesus was followed to the letter, Jesus said to all his apostles go and buy swords. But when they said we have two swords, Jesus said two swords is enough.
jfz178 said:
Also, Jesus knew he had to go with the people who came for Him to fulfill His destiny, but I think he wanted those people, and us today, to know He was going willingly, not just because they had all the swords and His people didn’t.
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Absolutely in agreement with you.
jfz178 said:
So Jesus is clearly pro-sword ownership for citizens. He not only permits it, He commanded it for the Apostles. But he is also clearly for using restraint from that position of strength, to not use the weapon unless someone is threatening deadly force. That is exactly how the vast majority of law abiding citizens think of the use of guns for defense today.
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Now I struggle with your interpretation, if Jesus was pro sword, then Jesus would have a sword himself. I cannot imagine Jesus hiding behind other people with swords, in the hope that they would defend him. All the disciples escaped, despite being outnumbered, and despite the majority of them having no weapons.

I can only say, that in the last almost ten years of walking into confrontations, I have been protected by prayer and the Holy spirit. I know this is not a guarantee that I will never be harmed, but I shall be out again until around 4 am on our streets next Saturday morning.
 
twf said:
I stand by my premise as an ideal but acknowledge that there may be reasonable exceptions required in some cases. Most developed societies would see law enforcement officers as the obvious exception.

Even in secular contexts… I would be creeped out and immediately leave the train if I was commuting to work one morning here in Vancouver and noted a passenger with a pistol hanging from his belt. On the other hand, police are visibly armed. I was raised to trust police officers - so seeing their guns is reassuring rather than frightening.
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Interesting. You would feel ‘creeped out’ in regards to a fellow human who made no other actions other than doing what police already do.

Your entire premise is based simply on ‘how you were raised’ and not any factual information about the persons involved.
 
Brendan said:
Interesting. You would feel ‘creeped out’ in regards to a fellow human who made no other actions other than doing what police already do.

Your entire premise is based simply on ‘how you were raised’ and not any factual information about the persons involved.
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I do not see how this is unusual. Seeing a policeman in uniform armed is simply not the same as seeing a person carrying a gun out of uniform. It is an issue, which is why police in plainclothes either display a badge or have it readily available for display reflexively. Police where I work are required to be in uniform for security work, even if they normally are not, lest there be some accident and someone killed, each person thinking they were acting in self defense and “standing their ground.”
 
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pnewton said:
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Brendan:
Interesting. You would feel ‘creeped out’ in regards to a fellow human who made no other actions other than doing what police already do.

Your entire premise is based simply on ‘how you were raised’ and not any factual information about the persons involved.
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I do not see how this is unusual. Seeing a policeman in uniform armed is simply not the same as seeing a person carrying a gun out of uniform. It is an issue, which is why police in plainclothes either display a badge or have it readily available for display reflexively. Police where I work are required to be in uniform for security work, even if they normally are not, lest there be some accident and someone killed, each person thinking they were acting in self defense and “standing their ground.”
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That addresses perception, not the reality of risk. One simply cannot tell from visual appearance if the person in question is a risk or not.

In fact, statistically, CPL holders have a lower arrest rate than the police officers. They are statistically more law abiding.

https://crimeresearch.org/2015/02/c...en-police-and-concealed-carry-permit-holders/
 
I believe I would. I have never seen a civilian visibly carrying a weapon in the city. If I did for the first time after 30 years it would disturb me. Not everywhere is as used to and accepting of a heavily armed populace as parts of the US are. I don’t know why you would find this unusual. Same would be true in most developed countries.
 
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jfz178 said:
The people coming for Jesus could have shown up in attack mode, ready to kill Him and the Apostles on the spot
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En garde! What they had in mind was much worse and slow and painful and humiliating… And the persecutions that followed…
I 'll try and find what the Church has to say about that passage…
 
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Brendan said:
That addresses perception, not the reality of risk. One simply cannot tell from visual appearance if the person in question is a risk or not.

In fact, statistically, CPL holders have a lower arrest rate than the police officers. They are statistically more law abiding.
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You address a perception that does not exist We have the perception of people without a uniform carrying a gun, not CPL holders carrying a gun, as no one can know by looks if one is a CPL holder. The perception is police officers versus everyone else, including criminals, who carry guns, and the statistic needs to be those who use that gun to perpetrate illegal violence, not commit any crime any where. If you are going to say this is perception, you must stick to what is visible and what may happen at that specific time. Both rates are extremely low, by the way. Just an observation.
 
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Eric_Hyom said:
According to the office of National Statistics, gun control in the UK works very well. Far more people are murdered by stabbing or being kicked and punched, than gun deaths.
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Well! That’s certainly a relief!
 
Eric_Hyom said:
Gun ownership would make matters worse.
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That’s simply your opinion – which I reject.

Try selling your opinion to the pensioner or the single mother living in fear in West Yorkshire each night who would deeply appreciate a means of defense.
 
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