Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[frangiuliano115]

The idea is false, because it denies the possible outcome of free moral choices that humans make.

Seems to me this is based on an incomplete appreciation of what God’s love is.

Not very convincing. Some attempt to prove from the Bible that fornication is acceptable.

davidv,

Let me assure you that I’m a bible toten’ and a ccc toten’ catholic.
You can think what you prefer re God’s love, no heresies involved here.

Just, if you won’t accept the bible for proof text, what would you accept?? Not that I care to get into it.

And I don’t mean to be so dense, but I asked you why you quote the bible you are using and you replied:

In my case, it comes with the citation that I copy.

I don’t know what this means!! Do you not use a bible? What citation do you copy?

Thanks for your patience with me and for the information.

God bless you

 

[simpleas]

Simpleas,
You prove my point exactly. About how unconditional love could be misunderstood.

You find it strange that some people believe God does not love everyone. Well, He does and we can’t get into that in detail. Let me just ask you: If you were a father and had a 32 year old son that kept beating you up and tried to throw you off a balcony, more than once, would you still love that child??
(this actually happened up in these here parts).

Well, you WOULD love him because he’s your child and you made him and brought him up, and in the fatherly sense you would love him.
But wouldn’t you love that other son more who took care of the elderly father, brought him food, took him for walks, etc. Is this so difficult to understand?
Switch the scenario to a girlfriend/boyfriend, husband/wife. What do you think?

I mean, we could get into this biblically, but I don’t think One Sheep would be too happy about that. Didn’t Jesus say that we have to do what His father in Heaven wants? Isn’t that setting a condition? Are we all going to heaven? Hell doesn’t exist? Satan doesn’t exist? So it doesn’t matter if we have the divine in us or not?

Then you go on to say that even those who do not believe in God could make it to eternal life. Well, I’m not going to judge anyone, that’s a different story. But, go back to John 3:16, seen at every football game. What does it mean to you? Really. I’d be interested to know. If they’re searching, God knows their heart. A priest friend of mine once told me that if you’re searching for God (sincerely, not like some posters that just want to debate) you’ve already found Him.

Simpleas, not MOST people are hurting, ALL people are hurting. A poster has a signature line I like a lot: “Be nice to those you meet, you never know what battle they are fighting.”
So, of course, you’re right.

OTOH, when it comes to God, it’s right that we always say the correct thing - it might even be hurtful sometimes to the other person, but we can’t sugarcoat being lost and losing eternity.

You say:

**But maybe deep inside they do search. Like I said before we see only the surface, the creator on the other hand sees all.

We talk alot about who God loves, who he’ll forgive etc, we can’t know for sure, that’s why we can’t condemn anyone.**

Yeah. Only God sees the heart. Let’s not condemn anyone; that’s not for us. But if we see a wrong, let us not be afraid to say it!

God bless you

You are speaking in human terms though, humans are some what limited in their natural responses to what we do to each other.
God isn’t limited, actually I’m not clear on what God’s love really means, I think of it being infinite or something, a sort of love that can’t compare to human love.

I think it’s pretty normal for someone to love a person that treats them well, and love less the person who harms them, that’s a normal human response.

 

[simpleas]

My sincere suggestion is to slowly and prayerfully study *CCC *1260. Please look twice at the words “in a way known to God”.

I do not print it here because most people want to find out what the next poster writes. Studying something, which may sound unusual, is usually not on the agenda.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Agree. This is what I’m trying to point out, that it is God who knows what is deep within a person.
This is comforting to me because there are billions of people not baptised into Christ as we have been, and there still is hope for their eternal lives too.

 

[frangiuliano115]

You are speaking in human terms though, humans are some what limited in their natural responses to what we do to each other.
God isn’t limited, actually I’m not clear on what God’s love really means, I think of it being infinite or something, a sort of love that can’t compare to human love.

I think it’s pretty normal for someone to love a person that treats them well, and love less the person who harms them, that’s a normal human response.

Simpleas,

You are so correct. Human examples and terms are so limiting. However, it’s all we’ve got!

This is God’ love:

He saw that we humans couldn’t understand Him. He tried so many different ways to let Hmself be known. Think of the Old Testament. He tried by creating a family (Adam and Eve) He tried by creating a tribe (Abraham), He tried by creating a nation (David) He tried by writing a book, the O.T., He tried by sending Judges, Kings, and Prophets. All to no avail. Man just couldn’t understand.

So He had to send Himself, so to speak. His only Son, Jesus. “I myself will shepherd them, for others have led them astray” from a song, not the bible but it makes it quickly understood.

So, yes, God loves in a way we cannot understand. He sent His son to hang on that bloody cross for our sins. It’s not understandable.

I certainly didn’t mean to take away from that. Just trying to explain in a way that could be understood quickly. When teaching our religion, we always use human ways to describe God - there’s no other way to do it!

But let’s remember how infinte He is, as you say!

God bless you
Fran

 

[grannymh]

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Agree. This is what I’m trying to point out, that it is God who knows what is deep within a person.
This is comforting to me because there are billions of people not baptised into Christ as we have been, and there still is hope for their eternal lives too.

**This is what I’m trying to point out, that it is God who knows what is deep within a person. **

 

[grannymh]

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Agree. This is what I’m trying to point out, that it is God who knows what is deep within a person.
This is comforting to me because there are billions of people not baptised into Christ as we have been, and there still is hope for their eternal lives too.

Simpleas, what you said here This is what I’m trying to point out, that it is God who knows what is deep within a person. is very important especially when we only see the outside shell of a person. I really feel sad when these beautiful words of our Good Shepherd are misinterpreted and misapplied in a post.

Hanging bloody on His Cross, Jesus said these words of mercy: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”

In some, not all, posts, there is the implication that Jesus forgave those who crucified Him according to the the blind assumption that everyone did not know that they were knowingly and willingly rejecting God. The sad idea is that it did not matter what people did or how they rejected God, they were home free.

 

[simpleas]

Simpleas,

You are so correct. Human examples and terms are so limiting. However, it’s all we’ve got!

This is God’ love:

He saw that we humans couldn’t understand Him. He tried so many different ways to let Hmself be known. Think of the Old Testament. He tried by creating a family (Adam and Eve) He tried by creating a tribe (Abraham), He tried by creating a nation (David) He tried by writing a book, the O.T., He tried by sending Judges, Kings, and Prophets. All to no avail. Man just couldn’t understand.

So He had to send Himself, so to speak. His only Son, Jesus. “I myself will shepherd them, for others have led them astray” from a song, not the bible but it makes it quickly understood.

So, yes, God loves in a way we cannot understand. He sent His son to hang on that bloody cross for our sins. It’s not understandable.

I certainly didn’t mean to take away from that. Just trying to explain in a way that could be understood quickly. When teaching our religion, we always use human ways to describe God - there’s no other way to do it!

But let’s remember how infinte He is, as you say!

God bless you
Fran

Man just couldn’t understand

Couldn’t understand God’s love?

Man has had problems loving each other, he believes he loves God, yet destroys God’s creation.
If man loved man regardless of differences in belief, tradition, sex ,he would then be loving God as God wanted?

 

[simpleas]

Simpleas, what you said here This is what I’m trying to point out, that it is God who knows what is deep within a person. is very important especially when we only see the outside shell of a person. I really feel sad when these beautiful words of our Good Shepherd are misinterpreted and misapplied in a post.

Hanging bloody on His Cross, Jesus said these words of mercy: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”

In some, not all, posts, there is the implication that Jesus forgave those who crucified Him according to the the blind assumption that everyone did not know that they were knowingly and willingly rejecting God. The sad idea is that it did not matter what people did or how they rejected God, they were home free.

The line Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” I always associated it with the people of that time, in that, Jesus in his suffering did not seem to have any anger or resentment towards the people that were causing his pain and death. To me he seemed compassionate toward them by saying those words.

I live and learn though

 

[frangiuliano115]

Couldn’t understand God’s love?

Man has had problems loving each other, he believes he loves God, yet destroys God’s creation.
If man loved man regardless of differences in belief, tradition, sex ,he would then be loving God as God wanted?

You know, sometimes in these posts it’s difficult to tell if someone is really asking for clarification of a comment. I hope this is the case here and the question is not just rethorical. I do this too sometimes to make a point. Anyway:

Man couldn’t understand what God wanted from him. God wants man to love Him, to be in union with Him, to obey Him. We’d have to ask ourselves why God made man to begin with. Maybe it was for companionship? So He loves us and wants us to love Him back.

But do we? No. We didn’t and we still don’t. He gave the 10 commandments to Moses so that man would know what sin was and that he was sinning. Yes. You’ll be told that they were rules to live by. But they were also to make us understand that we were sinning. A yeardstick, if you will. How do you know you’re sinning if no rules have been set?

We disobeyed in the garden and paid a price. The relationship was broken. How to get back? The sacrificial sysem kicks in. God made A and E coverings from animal skin when he banished them from the garden. The first sacrifice. You should study this system; it’s at the core of christianity. Here’s something from the web, look this up on any search engine:

That the result of disobedience (sin) is death: the death of each animal being a dramatic reminder of that fact.
That the process of purging sin is a costly and bloody affair.
That access to Yahweh’s presence without first being purged from sin is totally impossible: for only the purified believer could stand before a righteous God! All others must keep at a distance or risk being consumed by His holiness and glory.
That God Himself would - at the appointed time - PAY the enormous price of salvation by shedding His own life blood in the person of His only begotten Son.
And that a repentant sinner would be forgiven his sin, if he had faith in the Most High and presented the prescribed offering.

So we kept sinning and couldn’t understand that God is a righteous God. The story of Moses in the Sinai Desert is also important.

The only way God could make us understand was to send Jesus - become one of us so He could tell us directly. Kind of like us becoming an a mouse to explain to them how not to fall off the cliff by following the crowd and die.

You have to love God first, and then yourself, and then other people. You can’t do the last two without doing the first. But yes, you have to love your fellow man. Did you ever hear: Hate the sin, Love the sinner? Man sins because he is fragile. God knows this and we should know it too.

Yes, they couldn’t understand God’s love or accept it. If they did, Jesus would not have had to die because they would have been able to live in God’s grace.

You should study the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. I apologize if you already know them. There are more, but these are the ones that will most help you to know your faith.

Hope I haven’t said more than you wanted. There’s much more, it really can’t be done here.

God bless you

 

[frangiuliano115]

The line Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” I always associated it with the people of that time, in that, Jesus in his suffering did not seem to have any anger or resentment towards the people that were causing his pain and death. To me he seemed compassionate toward them by saying those words.

I live and learn though

I’d like to suggest a book if you haven’t already read it.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do- this is one of the “seven words” Jesus said from the cross. (7 statements).

A great book you might enjoy is DEATH ON A FRIDAY AFTERNOON by John Neuhause.

God bless
I live and learn though
Yes. Don’t we all! You know what U2 says? The more I learn, the less I know.

 

[grannymh]

The line Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.” I always associated it with the people of that time, in that, Jesus in his suffering did not seem to have any anger or resentment towards the people that were causing his pain and death. To me he seemed compassionate toward them by saying those words.

I live and learn though

You are correct in what you are saying. Compassionate is the best description.

What was being described in post 185 refers to distortions or implications of those words which have appeared in some posts. Seeing the truth in your words – **This is what I’m trying to point out, that it is God who knows what is deep within a person – **encourages me to look again at some strange interpretations of those compassionate words.

Sometime ago, I had a thread looking at emerging Christianity and Catholic doctrines. That thread is now closed. Posters were not aware of what is happening in some areas. There is a current thread which linked an article about stealth Arianism.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=973311

Again, that is relatively unknown territory. The difficulty that I see is that because ordinary folk are not necessarily aware of wolves in sheep’s clothing, they will take as truth some of the misinterpretations. When one follows the path of misinterpretations, one eventually stumbles on some huge denials of Catholicism, such as the denial of the state of knowingly and willingly mortal sin.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Open to procreation within a stable family insures the survival of the species.

That is without doubt, but not the point. The word I was asking about is the “ALWAYS”. Why should EVERY couple be “open to procreation” EVERY time? Right now the survival of the species more than assured, and the majority of the people use some kind of contraception on a regular basis. As a matter of fact, by 2050 the population might reach NINE billion!

Just because an older than dirt granny does not understand why God allows evil does NOT automatically prohibit someone else from understanding.

For sure. Is there anyone who can answer the age old “problem of evil”? My point was that to believe in something, for which not only there is no evidence, and moreover, if the evidence points to the contrary, is called “blind” faith, irrational and unreasonable.

As I said before, to believe in a creator is not unreasonable in and of itself. There is no evidence for it, but there is no evidence against it. But to believe in a benevolent creator is different ballgame.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Our conversation ends here. You’re just too freakin’ smart for me.

That is perfectly fine by me.

If you wanted to have an intelligent discussion you wouldn’t insult people constantly. Or would that be “continuously”.

I have no idea what those insults might be. If you wish to quote my “insulting” words back to me, I will be delighted. If no, that is not a problem either.

Now, if I WERE a rocket scientist I would KNOW that first I’d have to KNOW that something exists BEFORE I could BELIEVE in it - but it must be as you say in your previous post: I have to BELIEVE in it BEFORE I even KNOW it. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

How many people believe in Bigfoot? In the Loch Ness monster? Did all those people “KNOW” that these things exist? Of is their faith just wishful thinking?

 

[davidv]

davidv,

Let me assure you that I’m a bible toten’ and a ccc toten’ catholic.
You can think what you prefer re God’s love, no heresies involved here.

Just, if you won’t accept the bible for proof text, what would you accept??

Proof texting does not work for any one. Our interpretation must be consistent with the teachings of the Church.

Not that I care to get into it.

And I don’t mean to be so dense, but I asked you why you quote the bible you are using and you replied:

In my case, it comes with the citation that I copy.

I don’t know what this means!!

It mean I use an on-line bible on biblegateway.com.

Do you not use a bible?

What citation do you copy?

The version, book and verse number that goes with the verse I quote.

Thanks for your patience with me and for the information.

God bless you

 

[frangiuliano115]

Proof texting does not work for any one. Our interpretation must be consistent with the teachings of the Church.

It mean I use an on-line bible on biblegateway.com.



The version, book and verse number that goes with the verse I quote.

Proof texting is okay davidv. The catholic church believes in the bible and uses it. It even used it to write the CCC. It’s funny that you’re afraid of texts since you do use them from the internet. But no problem; all is good. I’ll tell you why I like them. It’s the exact wording and not somebody’s interpretation of them - which is what you’re afraid of!

I meant if you didn’t use a book bible, you know a REAL bible. I must be so old-fashioned. Actually, not. I even worked with DOS language but that gives my age away, doesn’t it?!

Will be checking out biblegateway.

Thanks for your patience. That was very nice of you. And I learned something new.

God bless

 

[grannymh]

I believe that this is the latest Catholic translation of the Bible. It is on line at the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops website.

usccb.org/bible/index.cfm

usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

 

[davidv]

Proof texting is okay davidv.

Not if proof text is defined as this:

Proof texting is the method by which a person appeals to a biblical text to prove or justify a theological position without regard for the context of the passage they are citing.

The context as well as number of other features must be taken into account to get an accurate interpretation of the Bible.

The catholic church believes in the bible and uses it. It even used it to write the CCC. It’s funny that you’re afraid of texts since you do use them from the internet.

Why do think I’m afraid?

But no problem; all is good. I’ll tell you why I like them. It’s the exact wording and not somebody’s interpretation of them - which is what you’re afraid of!

I meant if you didn’t use a book bible, you know a REAL bible. I must be so old-fashioned. Actually, not. I even worked with DOS language but that gives my age away, doesn’t it?!

I have two paper book Bibles, RSV-CE, and New American,

Will be checking out biblegateway.

Thanks for your patience. That was very nice of you. And I learned something new.

God bless

 

[OneSheep]

TWO

Now here’s why I may not be of any help: For me it’s just too easy. Now I read his homily because I’ve come to believe you’re a very intelligent person and I’m a bit worried that I’m just not getting it and that there must be more to this. But I’m having difficulty thinking beyond the following:

YET GOD’S JUSTICE IS DIFFERENT FROM OURS AND IF HE SEES GOOD FAITH OR BLAMELESS IGNORANCE HE SAVES…

Good Faith: I could have all the good faith I want. Do I believe in God or not?? If not, the good faith will do me no good. I think he’s misspeaking or not clarifying. Romans states this clearly. The CCC states only that good works could bring to salvation. Falling short again.

Hi Fran!

I am back. Feeling a bit under the weather, but I finally have a break to get to some replies.

To be charitable, the priest meant “Christian” faith, but the Church is not closed minded about the salvific effects of other faiths.

Where does the CCC say that only good works could bring salvation?

Blameless Ignorance: If it’s true blameless ignorance the person is saved. God is a just God.

HE SAVES EVEN THOSE WHO HAD BEEN ANXIOUS TO FIGHT HIM IN THEIR LIVES.

Huh? He must mean something he didn’t express. If I’m fighting Him it means I know about Him and that I reject Him. That means I’m lost. It seems really cut and dry.

Try this clarification: “anxious to fight who they think is God in their lives.”. Is that better? In my observations, those who wish to fight God do not know God.

The line about the sheep outside and the wolves inside is good but it means something totally different. I could be a believer living outside the church. OR I could be living inside the church and not even be a believer.

Now catch the beginning of pp 22. So the persons above who were not saved have been turned into impassioned apostles. Okay. This is correct. IF they are turned into apostles before dying, they are saved. Why doesn’t he just say this?

So for me it’s all about being saved or not. Before I could consider the woman aborting, I need to have this information or I can’t continue. All my thinking hinges on this.

Okay. Can you be specific about what the “being saved or not” has to do with considering the woman aborting? I think you may have something there, but I would only be guessing.

I say all this to find out if you even would agree with me. If not, there’s nowhere left to go because we have such a fundamental difference in condepts or theology I should say.

My reply hinges on no’s 7 and 8. If they are correct the she has rejected God in either case. If she aborts, easy. If she doesn’t: Wouldn’t you say that the very fact that she is expecting a baby is sinful? Would that not be a rejection of God?

Here are no.'s 7 & 8:

1. She is a christian
2. She is familiar with christian ideals

People can reject God, but do they do so Knowingly and Willingly? That is the question here. Expecting a baby is never sinful, but having sex outside of marriage is sinful, is that what you meant to say?

Let me add the others here that are pertinent. I eliminated #! because it is more objectionable if she had decided not to have the baby, and we are working from the objectionable. The others I left out were side- issues.

1. She has fear and resentment.
2. The fear and resentment is causing blindness.

So, she is Christian, but she has fear and resentment that is causing blindness. So, is she knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

I still don’t understand. Are you a psycologist? Unfortunately for me, I happen to be one of those persons that has empathy. The definition in our mind of how they’re feeling is different for me than projection. Also, empathy is not asking how they feel. I see that as concern. Empathy is almost FEELING what they’re feeling. But let’s leave it at that. I’m kinda worried you might send me a bill.

Yes. It’s great to have these conversations. Not too many christian people that would even understand - unfortunately.

I am not a psychologist. Everything I know about projection I learned in a Bible study.

I like the Free Dictionary definition best:

em·pa·thy (ĕm′pə-thē)
n.

1. The ability to identify with or understand another’s situation or feelings: Empathy is a distinctly human capability.

One human identifies with or understands another’s situation or feelings. Projection is part of that identification process. When we express it to the person we are identifying with, you are right, that is not the empathy, the empathy is in the identification, and projection is a big part of that. It’s all good.

The only people who have a great deal of difficulty empathizing are sociopaths and psychopaths. They truly have a deficit.

God Bless
P.S. Never got back to you on John 13:5-8 Is it really about service? Yes. Well that too. How about the capability to accept love and forgiveness? Jesus wanted to wash Peter’s feet. He loved Peter. Peter said “never”. He couldn’t accept that love. Accepting love is not easy.

Yes, accepting love is not easy, and neither was it easy for Peter to see why he must let his feet be washed. It was/is all part of showing that the one who is first is to serve everyone else, which Peter had not bought into.

I have more of your replies to address, but I am starting with this one, and it is the most pertinent to this thread. If she is blind, is she knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

Thanks for your hard work and dedication!

 

[OneSheep]

BEAUTIFUL!

Now there’s a homily!

I’d just say that the only condition to God’s love is that we accept Him.

God bless you

Thank you Fran!

Now, let’s look at that projection business again, shall we?

Do you love only the people that accept you?`

Love. Conditional. Unconditional. Yes. it deserves an explanation or I’ll be misunderstood.

Okay. God loves everyone because He created everyone. A father loves all his children.In this way He loves everyone. Because God is love.

Now if His love were truly unconditional, He would save everyone, but Jesus said that there were conditions to be met. People were not in accord with God, they needed to change. If you need to change it means that there is a condition. The condition is faith.

This unconditional idea is often used by atheists to say that no matter what they believe they will be saved in the end because God loves everyone and will not send anyone to hell.

I think David said it, but God wants to save everyone, in all the uses of the word “save”. Remember, Fran, we have the freedom to say “no” to God, and that is why we neither say that “all go to heaven” even if God would rather it be that way nor do we say “God sends someone to hell” because God sends no one there, it is their choice.

So, there are no conditions on God’s love, as David said. Salvation, whether it means salvation from slavery in this life or from alienation in the next, requires choice on the part of the individual. As Granny says, we have free will. What I am observing, though, is that people never knowingly and willingly make bad choices. All bad choices have lack of awareness and/or blindness as a crucial factor.

I’d use the example of the father/child but you’re going to say I’m projecting! A father loves his child, but if that child keeps beating up the father eventually the father will not love him so much anymore and will eventually disown him, if he could. A human example, but it could work.

What about if the child tortures his father and hangs him on a cross? Yet, there was not disowning; there was forgiveness.

Keep it comin’, Fran. I look forward to what you think about the unwanted child case.

Thanks

 

[OneSheep]

Try these statements out and see if they fit.

Welcome, HelenRose! Okay, let’s see!

“I will be damned before I ask my brother-in-law’s forgiveness.”

So, in order to determine if this is a knowing and willing rejection of God, the first question to ask is, “Why does he wish to avoid asking his Brother-in-law for forgiveness?”

“I will be damned before I will allow the Church, or any other (&^) person tell me what I can do.”

Here, the first question to investigate is “Why does he not want the Church or anyone else to tell him what to do?”

“I will be damned before I forgive that @#^%^&%$ brother of mine.”

Why does he refuse to forgive his brother?

“God doesn’t mean a damn to me.” I am master of my own fate. I don’t need God.“I did it my way. To hell with the @Q#%#! scriptures.”

Why does he think each of those? (they should not be lumped)

Yes, people do, did and will, with full knowledge reject God and His Mercy.

Well, let us investigate, shall we HelenRose? Pick one of the above, and answer the question, then we will see.

Thanks for your response!