Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[simpleas]

Let me try to explain a “lack of awareness” aspect here.

The child in the womb and the children already born are all part of the family. That is the truth. The difference between them is that the parents are more familiar with the children who are already born, and certainly the parents would be horrified at the thought of losing one of them.

So, is familiarity the criterion of value? To dispose of the unborn child, the parents would have to perceive the child as having no value. In fact, they have no idea, no awareness of the value of their child.

Their child may be the next Prime Minister.
Their child may be the next Mother Theresa.
Their child may be the one who is in the house and realizes that there is a fire before everyone is consumed.
And last, but not least: Their child in the womb is of infinite value, a value that no one can measure by word or deed.

It is understandable that people see no value where they do not see the future of an unborn child, and it is the human condition that we have not such omniscience.

In conclusion, a decision “not to proceed with a pregnancy” is a decision to end a life, a life they are completely unaware of in terms of value. Just as those who hung Jesus did not see His value, parents who destroy their unborn child do not see value. In both cases, they see more harm in allowing the life to continue. This is blindness, it is a thinking based on fear, condemnation or desire; not Truth, not from knowing the beauty of humanity.

Readers:
I don’t want this thread to be about abortion. The topic has to do with understanding why people do awful things, to investigate whether people ever knowingly and willingly reject God. This couple that Simpleas describes, in my view, do not.

thanks, Simpleas.

Hi

I didn’t want the thread to be about abortion either as we have discussed this topic before but since it became the example it arose the curiosity in me to investigate the reasons for abortion.
I don’t think there is blindness and ignorance from some of the testimonials I’ve read. Much thought goes into the decision and I think the reasons are to secure and maintain the family that has already been created.
Also some women feel a sense of sadness, but not guilt because they believe they made the correct choice.

Anyway I won’t go on. Maybe the example could be about something both can do that would seem as though they are rejecting God rather than a topic which a female has sole responsibility for.

Thanks.

 

[simpleas]

I prefer the Catholic approach. Clear precise truth about rejecting God by committing mortal sin. Clear precise truth about the need for sorrow and the need to seek forgiveness.

None of this dancing around responsibility and whitewashing rejection of God. Face up to Peter’s human nature. He did what he did. He does not need whitewashing. Peter is not a wimp hiding behind some conscience speculation.

And look Jesus Christ in the face. I mean truthfully looking God in the face. None of these stealth comments about Peter. Jesus is not blind to what is happening within people’s souls. Both He and Peter are not afraid of truth. John 21: 15-19.

:newidea: I bet you were talking about a Peter you personally know. Please, Please accept my apology for being truthful about St. Peter. Somehow, I thought you were referring to St. Peter.

The homily at mass yesterday was about Peter. The priest was telling again of how Peter knew Jesus saw the miracles but when it came to the crunch he denied ever knowing him. He said this gave us some hope though.

Imagine you see God face to face but when your faith is tested you run away? Same with Adam and Eve they knew God yet they “ran away”.

We try to see God in others and even in ourselves yet we run away when things get tricky, but hopefully we learn from the mistakes and can try harder.

I hope that makes sense, I shouldn’t be commenting on here when I’m due to go to work!

Have a nice day all

 

[grannymh]

Absolutely, the ideal is that we are all-seeing and all-knowing, never subject to blindness. My observation is that without the problem of ignorance and blindness people would never reject God. They would always do God’s will.

Pardon me. “The ideal is that we are all-seeing and all-knowing, never subject to blindness.” from post 218. ------ Are you aware that all-seeing and all-knowing belongs to God?

In the Catholic Church, the existence of one true God is already acknowledged. And knowledge about the existence of true human creatures includes the recognition that human nature consists of a rational spiritual soul and a decomposing anatomy. God so designed human nature that there is freedom to both accept God and reject God.

Are you aware that the very first human knowingly and willingly rejected God? Even though that very first real human being known biblically as Adam was not all-seeing and not all-knowing, he could still knowingly and willingly reject God. The good news is found in Genesis 3:15 where God did not abandon Adam and Eve.

Perhaps the solution to the problem of this thread is to review the Catholic teachings about human nature and also about the original relationship between humanity and Divinity.

Would you like to participate in reviewing Catholic teachings? Where would you like to begin? Since there is already an example of a human rejecting God, would you like to begin with the reality of Adam and Eve as the founding parents of the human species?

Divine Revelation trumps.

 

[OneSheep]

Pardon me. “The ideal is that we are all-seeing and all-knowing, never subject to blindness.” from post 218. ------ Are you aware that all-seeing and all-knowing belongs to God?

Yes, Granny! That was my point. We are not God. And, like I said before we cannot discuss A&E as an example on this thread because it will eventually come to the point that A&E were omniscient - by your assertion. Which yes, would make them gods.

This thread is not about doctrine, Granny. This thread is about understanding human behavior in the process of forgiveness. Part of that process, Granny, is seeing where the sinner is blind or lacks awareness. We already have scriptural references, as well as the quote in the OP. Jesus said “for they know not what they do”. St. Stephen said, as he was being stoned to death, “for they know not what they do”. St Paul said, as he referred to his past persecution “i was ignorant”. There are many, many, more examples of this, and what we are looking for in this thread is the counterpoint!

Are there any examples of people knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

If you can think of one, please bring it forward!

 

[OneSheep]

:tiphat: . . . puts on Dr Phil hat.

Thinking about guilt as an emotion leads me to wonder what happens when someone lies to oneself about the wrongfulness of an act as it is revealed by one’s conscience.
Telling ourselves that we are not guilty, perhaps as an attempt to avoid the negative feelings that are evoked, would bring conscience into the realm of the irrational.
To deny a truth turns the reality into an illusion.
How then could someone differentiate irrational guilt, caused by damage to the self by faulty relationships, from true guilt.
I would hazard a guess that lying to oneself about one’s culpability would likely lead to all sorts of anxieties, depressions and obsessions since confession/reconciliation is no longer sought for healing the true wound; or conversely it might lead to psychopathy.

Hi Aloysium,

You make a good point, but like I said, there is a time to hang onto negative feelings of guilt, and there is a time for letting go.

This is not a matter of culpability. Understanding does not erase culpability, in terms of accountability. We are all to be held accountable for the things we do. Let me put this in a different context for you, from a quote I just found:

Pope Francis ‏@Pontifex May 19

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

Jesus calls us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Part of that understanding is to see that people do not knowingly and willingly reject God, which is what happened at the crucifixion.

If a person “lies to oneself” or people “tell ourselves that we are not guilty” they are doing so in ignorance, they do not know what they are doing. We are all sinners, we are all guilty of sin.

This thread is not about avoiding or denying guilt. This thread is about understanding. This thread is about forgiveness. People who do not experience guilt have a compromised conscience.

Are you hoping to discourage people from seeking to understand their own behaviors or the behaviors of others in the process of reconciliation? Understanding is a gift of the Spirit.

So, have you thought of an example of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

 

[OneSheep]

Hi

I didn’t want the thread to be about abortion either as we have discussed this topic before but since it became the example it arose the curiosity in me to investigate the reasons for abortion.
I don’t think there is blindness and ignorance from some of the testimonials I’ve read. Much thought goes into the decision and I think the reasons are to secure and maintain the family that has already been created.
Also some women feel a sense of sadness, but not guilt because they believe they made the correct choice.

Anyway I won’t go on. Maybe the example could be about something both can do that would seem as though they are rejecting God rather than a topic which a female has sole responsibility for.

Thanks.

Yes, I was framing the decision as one made by both parents together. People can put a great deal of thought into something but not have access to all the possibilities. So, people do have “free will”, but that “free” is very limited by lact of awareness.

Regardless of their desire to maintain their family, for example, the option of adoption is always there, and there are organizations that will pay to support the mother in her taking the child to term. The reasons for not taking the child to term can be stripped away, one by one, if a person is aware of the options. Do you have testimonials of people who have had abortions but knew the value of their child and knew all the options? If so, please send them to me.

In this case, I think you can agree, the parents are not intending to reject God, which means that whatever they are doing they are not “willingly” rejecting. They are trying to save their family, which they seem to think is in danger in some way. God calls them to save their family, and they are doing so. They are making a tough decision without knowing all of the options.

Can you think of any other example where a person is actually knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

Thanks, Simpleas.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . there is a time to hang onto negative feelings of guilt, and there is a time for letting go. . . .So, have you thought of an example of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

There is neurotic guilt for which we have pharmaco- and psychotherapy. True guilt is not a feeling but a state of being in relation to God. We let go through confession and reconciliation. My confessor knows the how’s and when’s of my rejection of God. It is none of your business - focus on your own true sinfulness instead.

 

[OneSheep]

There is neurotic guilt for which we have pharmaco- and psychotherapy. True guilt is not a feeling but a state of being in relation to God. We let go through confession and reconciliation. My confessor knows the how’s and when’s of my rejection of God. It is none of your business - focus on your own true sinfulness instead.

Hi again,

Yes, the state of being in relationship with God is one that drives out all fear, resentment, and self-condemnation. It is a relationship of freedom, one that gives life! No longer bogged down by resentment. And yes, we let go through confession and reconciliation, and understanding is a big part of that reconciliation, as what happened from the cross.

And yes! Your own rejections are your business, and I never asked for personal examples. If I gave you the impression that I wanted personal examples, I apologize. If you have ever rejected God, my guess is that you did not know what you were doing, and you know better now.

It is much easier to see the blindness of others than our own blindness, but in seeing the blindness of others we have the tools to see our own - to a limit. Ultimately I rely on others to point out my own blindness.

So, if you see mine, let me know okay?

In the mean time, if you think of any case of a person K&WR God, please bring it forward. We’ve yet to come across an example.

Thanks, and God’s peace be with you.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, Granny! That was my point. We are not God. And, like I said before we cannot discuss A&E as an example on this thread because it will eventually come to the point that A&E were omniscient - by your assertion. Which yes, would make them gods.

This thread is not about doctrine, Granny.

My dear friend.

This thread is about doctrine because the thread title refers to God with a capital G. Consider the subject matter in the opening post. In addition, the thread title asks a question about any human. This opens the door to presenting Catholic information about human nature and human origin so as to distinguish a true human from the Greek and Roman gods who have human characteristics.

Regarding the beautiful word omniscient in post 223.
"Yes, Granny! That was my point. We are not God. And, like I said before we cannot discuss A&E as an example on this thread because it will eventually come to the point that A&E were omniscient - by your assertion. Which yes, would make them gods. "

I am so grateful that you remember “omniscient” by my assertion. I keep thinking I used the word omnipotent in regard to someone’s suggestion that Adam was perfect. Please, with sugar on it, give me the post number and thread where I asserted that “A&E were omniscient.” Maybe seeing the words “omniscient Adam and Eve” in black on white will help the memory of this older than dirt granny. Thank you for your anticipated kindness.

Regarding the closing of post 223.
"Are there any examples of people knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

If you can think of one, please bring it forward! "

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer; nonetheless, I consider Adam and Eve as people and not clever monkeys. Therefore, because this public message board allows civil and charitable legitimate views to be presented for discussion, my example of Adam and Eve people stands.

It is understandable to avoid certain annoying Catholic doctrines, because some are a tad old fashioned from the dark ages. However, it is the policy of this public message board to allow people the “free speech” of sharing information about Catholic doctrines.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . the state of being in relationship with God is one that drives out all fear, resentment, and self-condemnation. It is a relationship of freedom, one that gives life! No longer bogged down by resentment. And yes, we let go through confession and reconciliation, and understanding is a big part of that reconciliation, as what happened from the cross. . . If you have ever rejected God, my guess is that you did not know what you were doing, and you know better now. . . It is much easier to see the blindness of others than our own blindness, but in seeing the blindness of others we have the tools to see our own - to a limit. Ultimately I rely on others to point out my own blindness. . . .

Perhaps confession is the way to get the point across:
Resentment is not an issue for me.
I suppose because I have always done what I wanted and respected the decisions of others, whether good for me or not.
I have always known why I was doing what I do.
That said, it is not always easy to ascertain all of one’s motives.
With action and introspection comes the realization of one’s wickedness as an ultimate truth of all humanity.

Since one cannot see what is not there, to see “blindness” must mean that one has some greater view that the other does not.
That is one reason why Jesus established His church, to transmit that revealed truth to humanity and each of us individually.

 

[simpleas]

Yes, I was framing the decision as one made by both parents together. People can put a great deal of thought into something but not have access to all the possibilities. So, people do have “free will”, but that “free” is very limited by lact of awareness.

Regardless of their desire to maintain their family, for example, the option of adoption is always there, and there are organizations that will pay to support the mother in her taking the child to term. The reasons for not taking the child to term can be stripped away, one by one, if a person is aware of the options. Do you have testimonials of people who have had abortions but knew the value of their child and knew all the options? If so, please send them to me.

In this case, I think you can agree, the parents are not intending to reject God, which means that whatever they are doing they are not “willingly” rejecting. They are trying to save their family, which they seem to think is in danger in some way. God calls them to save their family, and they are doing so. They are making a tough decision without knowing all of the options.

Can you think of any other example where a person is actually knowingly and willingly rejecting God?

Thanks, Simpleas.

No as I said before I can not know that a person knowingly and willingly rejects God. There are plenty of examples on CAF and in the world that we judge people by their actions, but only God knows their true self.
Yes adoption is an option, but not for a women who does not want to carry a child to term, although you and I may say there is always a way to get through, that measures can be taken to ensure financial security in our countries for families, people don’t always go with the options.

 

[simpleas]

Hi again,

Yes, the state of being in relationship with God is one that drives out all fear, resentment, and self-condemnation. It is a relationship of freedom, one that gives life! No longer bogged down by resentment. And yes, we let go through confession and reconciliation, and understanding is a big part of that reconciliation, as what happened from the cross.

And yes! Your own rejections are your business, and I never asked for personal examples. If I gave you the impression that I wanted personal examples, I apologize. If you have ever rejected God, my guess is that you did not know what you were doing, and you know better now.

It is much easier to see the blindness of others than our own blindness, but in seeing the blindness of others we have the tools to see our own - to a limit. Ultimately I rely on others to point out my own blindness.

So, if you see mine, let me know okay?

In the mean time, if you think of any case of a person K&WR God, please bring it forward. We’ve yet to come across an example.

Thanks, and God’s peace be with you.

I’m starting to think that willingly out weighs knowingly. Since we have freewill, we can willingly do lot’s of stuff, especially without knowledge of the consequence.

A person willingly goes to confession, willingly admits that they have failed to serve God and family in many ways, yet knowledge of why these things are sinful may not always be present.
We have knowledge to a certain degree, but we do not have full knowledge of anything.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Thanks.
I find the O.T really hard to follow, and I’ve never study the two covenants.

I find the stories in the O.T shows God as an angry God in parts, not really loving all his people, but only the ones who follow a set of rules, and any people who don’t are not welcome, but most all the N.T shows God’s love and compassion for his creation, Jesus eating and drinking with sinners, showing that everyone is important to God so to speak.

Simpleas,

I just got back home, but what you say above is common to new christians and also to those who have been christian for a long time but are now just starting to read the bible and really study.

I’ll be answering you tomorrow. It’s really late here.

Let’s see if you like what I’ll have to say! I think you will.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Perhaps confession is the way to get the point across:
Resentment is not an issue for me.
I suppose because I have always done what I wanted and respected the decisions of others, whether good for me or not.
I have always known why I was doing what I do.
That said, it is not always easy to ascertain all of one’s motives.
With action and introspection comes the realization of one’s wickedness as an ultimate truth of all humanity.

Since one cannot see what is not there, to see “blindness” must mean that one has some greater view that the other does not.
That is one reason why Jesus established His church, to transmit that revealed truth to humanity and each of us individually.

Hmmm. Aloysium.

God does not see you as wicked, He sees you as precious. He sees all humanity as precious.

“It is through the Spirit that we see that whatsoever exists in any way is good.”

• St. Augustine

My Brother, What is seeing oneself as “wicked” if it is not self-resentment, self-condemnation? What is “eternal life” and “salvation” if one lives with a grudge against oneself? This is what the self-described “wickedness” implies.

God has every hair on your head counted, He has you carved into the palm of His hand.
This is the “greater view”. You are not wicked, you have value, infinite value.

Indeed, if a person sees any other as having a negative value, as the crowd saw Jesus, then they do not have a clue what they are doing. They are blind.

On the other hand, if it somehow serves your own spiritual well-being to think of yourself as “wicked”, and there is actually no self-resentment involved, then yes, it is not an issue. It is hard to communicate without defining every term, without hearing what is underlying your use of the word “wicked”.

God created, and saw what He made as good. And it still is.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hi again,

Yes, the state of being in relationship with God is one that drives out all fear, resentment, and self-condemnation. It is a relationship of freedom, one that gives life! No longer bogged down by resentment. And yes, we let go through confession and reconciliation, and understanding is a big part of that reconciliation, as what happened from the cross.

And yes! Your own rejections are your business, and I never asked for personal examples. If I gave you the impression that I wanted personal examples, I apologize. If you have ever rejected God, my guess is that you did not know what you were doing, and you know better now.

It is much easier to see the blindness of others than our own blindness, but in seeing the blindness of others we have the tools to see our own - to a limit. Ultimately I rely on others to point out my own blindness.

So, if you see mine, let me know okay?

In the mean time, if you think of any case of a person K&WR God, please bring it forward. We’ve yet to come across an example.

Thanks, and God’s peace be with you.

I DID give an example (my own) of knowingly and willingly rejecting God.

Why do you presume to doubt me?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . God does not see you as wicked, He sees you as precious. He sees all humanity as precious. . . My Brother, What is seeing oneself as “wicked” if it is not self-resentment, self-condemnation? What is “eternal life” and “salvation” if one lives with a grudge against oneself? This is what the self-described “wickedness” implies.

God has every hair on your head counted, He has you carved into the palm of His hand.
This is the “greater view”. You are not wicked, you have value, infinite value.

Indeed, if a person sees any other as having a negative value, as the crowd saw Jesus, then they do not have a clue what they are doing. They are blind.

On the other hand, if it somehow serves your own spiritual well-being to think of yourself as “wicked”, and there is actually no self-resentment involved, then yes, it is not an issue. It is hard to communicate without defining every term, without hearing what is underlying your use of the word “wicked”.

God created, and saw what He made as good. And it still is.

Gimme a break. Do you know nothing of human nature?

 

[OneSheep]

I DID give an example (my own) of knowingly and willingly rejecting God.

Why do you presume to doubt me?

Oops!

Sorry, Tantum ergo, I responded on post 207, and we are not done with that investigation, nor have we started. Like I said in that post, though, we should probably not use personal examples.

Please respond to that post and we can take it from there. We may need to carefully define some terms, like “knowingly”, so that we don’t have different discussions with each other.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[OneSheep]

Gimme a break. Do you know nothing of human nature?

Oboy! Do we get to talk about human nature?

Is there something bad about human nature? Please describe one “bad” part.

Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

No as I said before I can not know that a person knowingly and willingly rejects God. There are plenty of examples on CAF and in the world that we judge people by their actions, but only God knows their true self.
Yes adoption is an option, but not for a women who does not want to carry a child to term, although you and I may say there is always a way to get through, that measures can be taken to ensure financial security in our countries for families, people don’t always go with the options.

However, Simpleas,

We can know that we personally have never K&WRG when we come to see our own blindness. And once we have that self-understanding, our eyes change. Beauty, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. Once we see our own beauty (and innocence) we can truly see the same in everyone around us, right? This is seeing with the “true self”. We know our “true self” when we have found that beauty and innocence. Surely you must see that innocence in the animals you care for. Why is it so hard to see our own? Oh, it is because seeing innocence is “making excuses” or trying to escape consequence. That hesitance, however, would mean that the person is not owning their poor choices. Understanding is not the same as disowning, denying, or white-washing our poor choices. We do awful things - but mean well - and we do not know what we are doing. My observations, of course.

And on the second paragraph, why don’t people “go with the options”? Please be specific.

Thanks. You are keeping me on my toes!

 

[Vico]

Hi Vico,

I think that “wounds man’s nature” would need some clarifying. Our nature is a gift from God, it is our genetics, our innate compulsions. These are not subject to human behavior, not in the scientific sense. We would have to enter into the specifics of how such “wounding” would occur. What is wounded is our holiness, our wholeness. PTSD is a good example of this.

The person who you had described, who sincerely knew and loved God but had an affair (if I remember right) was acting irrationally. You said that his greatest priority was to obey God the whole time. This does not indicate “knowingly” to me, because his behavior was irrational, and it does not indicate “willingly”, because he did not intend to reject God. That was not the intent of his action.

Keep in mind, brother, that the intent of this thread is not to absolve people of consequence. The intent is to give people the means of understanding the worst of human behaviors. Yes, we all think that people “should know better”. The fact is that blindness happens in the much less intense situations. Remember the study of the people counting basketball bounces but did not see the Gorilla walking through the court?

The man you described was blinded by desire. This is what happens. It is not an “excuse”; it is an explanation.

Thanks again for your participation.

It is logical as stated in the Catechism, since sin is contrary to reason yet mortal sin is a possibility, it follows that mortal sin is possible by acts contrary to reason. Also knowingly means in the face of either conscience or knowledge of the moral character of the act as informed by the Church.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom …

1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.

What are you referring to from my post with the Catechism items?