Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[Aloysium]

. . . It’s like “If I understand, I have to let go of my condemnation of the other.” People do not want to let go, for good reason. They may not be ready. . . Did I give the impression that unconditional love is something from beyond myself, beyond our world? There is a “oneness” a “wholeness” or “holiness” about it. It is not dualistic man v. divine. There is God within, transcending. It is a way of describing a phenomenon that you would not use, but perhaps you can relate anyway. There is something about me and you that is connected at a deeper level. . .

Love is not beyond oneself, as part of this world.
It is achieved through the grace of the Holy Spirit,
by giving of oneself to what is other.
Holiness and wholeness follow,
their being qualities of the Triune Godhead,
Who is Love, One and other within Himself.
God is within us as the cause of our being
and if we let Him, when we choose to become Christ-like
in our filial surrender to His will.
It is actually about dualistic man and the Divine,
in the sense that without an act of giving
of oneself to what is truly other,
there is no true unity with that other.
We are not connected at a deeper level
than what we will
although we may share certain attributes
and a basic human nature.
We chose to not give ourselves to God
at the beginning of time.
We must each of us now take the opportunity
which Christ’s sacrifice has permitted,
to re-enter into loving right-relation with God.

 

[OneSheep]

All of them… may not be what he thinks they are
And this is a form of confirmation bias by him.

Good morning,

Everything that we know may not be what we think it is, right? We do the best we can with what we have.

I speak as a scientist: Non-bias, when we think we have such, is an illusion.

Faith is not so much a left-brained thing. For me it comes from awareness of an inner Love and connection to all, from appreciation of gift, from a desire to maintain and develop such connection.

Straight out of the matrix, huh?

Sorry, I don’t remember that aspect of the movie. The resistance to forgive, I think, is that we hold onto condemnations because they keep us aware of behaviors we need to ourselves avoid.

hmmm… indeed you did not… explicitly.
I was maybe reading a bit too much into that “unconditional love”, based on what I’ve heard by others about it… was I?

Ah… so… there is a god within?
Isn’t that something that may be seen as beyond yourself?

You and me, connected?
There’s the sharing of genetic material…more than 99%, by some estimates, we’re connected online, sharing ideas… some of those ideas, we actually share our agreement on, so we behave similarly in a few similar situations… is this what you mean by “deeper level”?

It is all very mysterious. Sometimes I look at a person walking on the street, in awe. “That person sees an entirely different world than I do, yet somehow we share an identity”. I know, it sounds ridiculous, and perhaps a bit too spacey.

Perhaps the connection is better communicated through music and art?

Also, where did you get the idea that I’m from Brazil? was it my accent?
hehe, no, I’m from Europe, Portugal, the birthplace of the portuguese language, where, a long time ago (~800ce), muslims took over the land…
Ah… who fought who?.. Should we now try to regain our luso identity (an expression still in use around here) and shove those invading christians/romans?

Cheers! You too!

Oh, the Brazilian error was due to a time zone mistake.
Our “connection” is also from a bit of nationality. My ancestors were among the first to settle the Azores, and though I am not “mostly” of such descent, I still carry the surname.

Concerning “occupation history” I do not see any reason to expect that our nature is any different than 2000 years ago. Here in America, I am surrounded by xenophobia against the poor people from Mexico “taking” so many jobs that we don’t want. It is clearly an ingroup/outgroup protection phenomenon. But imagine these immigrants gaining wealth and buying businesses, even running banking institutions and influencing government action through “lobbying” (our American word for “legal corruption”). Xenophobia, is such case, would develop into fury. The rise of Nazism was due to such a perceived “occupation”.

When the people in power do not represent our needs, we have an instinctual response from our desire for control, our tribal need for territory. I don’t see any reason that the Jews of Jesus’ day would be any different. Insurrection was very common, “Pax Romana” was iron-fisted.

I think that it is very common among the learned to think that religion creates more problems than it does solutions (to put it mildly). However, every religion calls for loving and forgiving one another, which coincides with humanism, but is not necessarily a precept of the secular world. Here among the “religious” we claim to value forgiveness, but seem to think its application is limited and/or we lack the skills to carry out such forgiveness.

Thus, the reason for this thread.

And perhaps your voice here, as an atheist, helps people to see that God’s grace is available to all of us, as implied in the OP. How dare you be an atheist yet charitable and considerate!

 

[OneSheep]

It is actually about dualistic man and the Divine, in the sense that without an act of giving of oneself to what is truly other, there is no true unity with that other. We are not connected at a deeper level than what we will…

Through my experience of prayer, I know the connection is there, but we must admit that the whole autonomy thing is very mysterious. There is unity, yet there is a separateness, and the unity has to do with Love.

And, it is partially through understanding one another that we see unity.

 

[Aloysium]

I would phrase it, “And, it is partially through understanding one another that we are able to commune.”
The original unity and holiness was broken when we chose against Love in the Garden.
It damaged what would have been otherwise, a natural inclination to love one another as individual souls.
We can only know another when we love them.

 

[pocaracas]

Hello! Afternoon here!

Good morning,
Everything that we know may not be what we think it is, right? We do the best we can with what we have.

Indeed, but you should endeavor to eliminate as many biases as possible, right?
I know I do… and even then… there’s always someone throwing some bias in my face! Telling me that this or that is based on nothing but a biased view… and I must accept and reevaluate, if possible… it’s a pain.

Sorry, I don’t remember that aspect of the movie.

Right at the end of the trilogy - not all humans disconnect from the matrix. Not all are ready or willing.
Like the other guy said on the first one: ignorance is bliss.

The resistance to forgive, I think, is that we hold onto condemnations because they keep us aware of behaviors we need to ourselves avoid.
…]
Perhaps the connection is better communicated through music and art?

Hmmm,… not everyone listens to the same kind of music… nor everyone likes the same kind of painting, sculpting, etc… tastes are subjective.
It seems you’re positing some other underlying connective aspect - the desire to survive, to do good to others (ingroup others), to be recognized, to feel good… to be at peace.

Are those desires an expression of some underlying fluffy substance (which I’ll assume you guys call God), or a general result of our shared evolution in an unforgiving planet, where the ingroup is valued and needed for safety of the individual, where you seek to do good to the ingroup, so others will feel safe in your presence, where you are an agent of peace among your group…?

Yes, I agree with you: we do share something, down deep. But I wouldn’t put a God in there… as expected, huh?

Oh, the Brazilian error was due to a time zone mistake.
Our “connection” is also from a bit of nationality. My ancestors were among the first to settle the Azores, and though I am not “mostly” of such descent, I still carry the surname.

Cool!
You need to learn the language, then!
It’s really simple, even a toddler can do it!

Concerning “occupation history” I do not see any reason to expect that our nature is any different than 2000 years ago. Here in America, I am surrounded by xenophobia …]
When the people in power do not represent our needs, we have an instinctual response from our desire for control, our tribal need for territory. I don’t see any reason that the Jews of Jesus’ day would be any different. Insurrection was very common, “Pax Romana” was iron-fisted.

Different times, different places… I don’t know… I welcome anyone who would teach me (us?) how things were for real back then.

oh, Lobbying has found its way across the Atlantic… it’s infected every European government, even the EU council!
We’re having an election for government next weekend and one of the parties’ program is to create an actual set of decent rules for lobbying… because it seems lobbyists made our current laws on that matter.

I think that it is very common among the learned to think that religion creates more problems than it does solutions (to put it mildly). However, every religion calls for loving and forgiving one another, which coincides with humanism, but is not necessarily a precept of the secular world. Here among the “religious” we claim to value forgiveness, but seem to think its application is limited and/or we lack the skills to carry out such forgiveness.

It’s difficult to forgive an individual from the outgroup.
I don’t know if religion creates more problems than it solves… I think it was necessary to create solutions to unsolved and unsolvable problems… at the time!

Nowadays, with science taking the vanguard of problem solving… religion is left with the ultimate unknown: to where does my conscience go after my physical body dies?
Science’s point of view on this is simple, but not at all comforting: your conscience/personality/memories are stored in your brain as neural patterns - when you die, the neural pathways stop communicating, thus ending your mind. The end, game over. Finito.

Where does my father’s wisdom go when he dies? He’s been a voice of reason right besides me for my whole life… I don’t want him to die… How dare the world take him away like that? It can’t be… that can’t be the end of such a good, wise, knowledgeable person… it just can’t! I refuse to accept it!

It’s so frustratingly simple to embrace the calm reassurance that our loved ones do go on… that we ourselves do go on…
But our ingroup wouldn’t have the outgroup people in our great beyond… no… the outgroup “evil” people must go enjoy their afterlife somewhere else.
This means that there must be some entity controlling who enters our great beyond, so that only the correct ingroup “good” people make it there, right?

Sadly, while most (if not all) religions do indeed call for peace and forgiving and loving… they only do so for their ingroup… many religions desire to fight the outgroup, eliminating it, if possible, at least through conversion.
Would you not rather the whole world to be christian, instead of this mess we have?

Thus, the reason for this thread.

And perhaps your voice here, as an atheist, helps people to see that God’s grace is available to all of us, as implied in the OP. How dare you be an atheist yet charitable and considerate!

How dare I?!
I don’t know… it’s just how I am.

Why would I come to this forum to be uncharitable and inconsiderate? that’s what they invented 4chan for!

 

[OneSheep]

Hello! Afternoon here!

Indeed, but you should endeavor to eliminate as many biases as possible, right?
I know I do… and even then… there’s always someone throwing some bias in my face! Telling me that this or that is based on nothing but a biased view… and I must accept and reevaluate, if possible… it’s a pain.

Eliminate a bias? Is it possible? The best that we can do is involve another set of biases, and maybe together we find a truth.

It seems you’re positing some other underlying connective aspect - the desire to survive, to do good to others (ingroup others), to be recognized, to feel good… to be at peace.

Are those desires an expression of some underlying fluffy substance (which I’ll assume you guys call God), or a general result of our shared evolution in an unforgiving planet, where the ingroup is valued and needed for safety of the individual, where you seek to do good to the ingroup, so others will feel safe in your presence, where you are an agent of peace among your group…?

However, Jesus’ call for compassion is all-inclusive. He uses the Samaritan as the example of the “good neighbor”, yet Samaritans were considered dirt. He hung out with “sinners” and tax collectors. This is the model we go by. Jesus says, “If you just love your buddies, what good is that, anybody does that!” (paraphrased)

Yes, I agree with you: we do share something, down deep. But I wouldn’t put a God in there… as expected, huh?

I know a theistic atheist Catholic. He rejects entirely the idea of the guy in the white beard (not that it is a Catholic-mandated image) and says “God is the essence of creation itself”. Leave it to a Philosopher to make God even more incomprehensible than He already is in our doctrine.

It’s difficult to forgive an individual from the outgroup.

Yes, it is difficult to forgive those we resent in general. But whom else are we Christians supposed to forgive? All of our friends we hold nothing against?
We are called to forgive everyone we hold something against, even the people who belong to ISIS, even people in history the likes of Hitler, everyone we hold anything against. Even ourselves! So, I post threads to help, this is one of them.

I don’t know if religion creates more problems than it solves… I think it was necessary to create solutions to unsolved and unsolvable problems… at the time!

Nowadays, with science taking the vanguard of problem solving… religion is left with the ultimate unknown: to where does my conscience go after my physical body dies?
Science’s point of view on this is simple, but not at all comforting: your conscience/personality/memories are stored in your brain as neural patterns - when you die, the neural pathways stop communicating, thus ending your mind. The end, game over. Finito.

Where does my father’s wisdom go when he dies? He’s been a voice of reason right besides me for my whole life… I don’t want him to die… How dare the world take him away like that? It can’t be… that can’t be the end of such a good, wise, knowledgeable person… it just can’t! I refuse to accept it!

It’s so frustratingly simple to embrace the calm reassurance that our loved ones do go on… that we ourselves do go on…
But our ingroup wouldn’t have the outgroup people in our great beyond… no… the outgroup “evil” people must go enjoy their afterlife somewhere else.
This means that there must be some entity controlling who enters our great beyond, so that only the correct ingroup “good” people make it there, right?

Yet, when we forgive and understand a person, the whole perception of evil as part of the person’s character simply falls away, and one is left with a person no different than oneself, and both you and he are beautiful. That is forgiveness from the heart, at the deeper level of understanding.

Sadly, while most (if not all) religions do indeed call for peace and forgiving and loving… they only do so for their ingroup… many religions desire to fight the outgroup, eliminating it, if possible, at least through conversion.
Would you not rather the whole world to be christian, instead of this mess we have?

There is the example of Eva Kor, the Jewish holocaust survivor who forgave the Nazis, and I know Muslim people who have no doctrine of “original sin” but of “original forgiveness”, but I am finding a lot of variety in Islam. Found some rather disappointing things, but I have contacted some Muslim people to verify:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness#Islam

I think you would agree that if all peoples were to forgive without condition, the world would be a much better place. All Christian, meaning all forgiving? Yes, that would not be such a bad place.

Doesn’t every human of normal conscience live his life in a way such that if everyone held the same precepts, the world would be better, maybe even perfect?

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Grannymh earlier on said:

Since the title words, knowingly and willingly, are being properly discussed, it might be interesting to look at willingly in terms of Catholic thought. Adam and Eve were the only creatures mentioned in the first three chapters of Genesis who were called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. Sharing in God’s life (Genesis 1:27) is a mighty powerful concept. Love has to be willingly given.

I don’t agree with your statement, and I am a Catholic. What you are suggesting is the same as "Biblical literalists like Creation Museum CEO and President Ken Ham have maintained that Adam and Eve were real people and beliefs to the contrary compromise “God’s Word with man’s fallible beliefs about evolution, millions of years, etc.” (1)
I’m not a fan of Ken Ham!

1. christianpost.com/news/vatican-says-identifying-adam-and-eve-is-matter-of-religious-belief-as-scientists-search-for-first-humans-113772/

Panentheism as I described it, Granny, is the typical Catholic view. It describes God’s presence in all that exists. This is an Augustinian approach.

[snip]

God is in everyone and everything. Without God, we are nothing. It is a very simple approach. All the rest is arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

God (The Father, Son (Jesus), & Holy Spirit) is not in dog poop or in granite to just give you a few examples.)

Oh, I must say that I had a wonderful holiday. Sincerely did enjoy seeing Pope Francis on the telly. I just love him. Father Francis! Futhermore, I loved what he said in post 353.

May God bless everyone with wisdom and joy.

 

[OneSheep]

God (The Father, Son (Jesus), & Holy Spirit) is not in dog poop or in granite to just give you a few examples.)

Oh, I must say that I had a wonderful holiday. Sincerely did enjoy seeing Pope Francis on the telly. I just love him. Father Francis! Futhermore, I loved what he said in post 353.

May God bless everyone with wisdom and joy.

Howdy

Yes, I too am a big fan of Pope Francis. If you would like to give Granny your opinion, you can respond on her “Adam and Logic” thread. She would probably love to battle a new person!

If God is the essence of all that is, yes, then His presence is everywhere. Some of the details are best not visited, but it is all mystery.

Have you thought of any examples to investigate of a person Knowingly and Willingly rejecting God?

Thanks for your response.

 

[pocaracas]

Eliminate a bias? Is it possible? The best that we can do is involve another set of biases, and maybe together we find a truth.

Some biases are suppressible, others… I must agree with you…

However, Jesus’ call for compassion is all-inclusive. He uses the Samaritan as the example of the “good neighbor”, yet Samaritans were considered dirt. He hung out with “sinners” and tax collectors. This is the model we go by. Jesus says, “If you just love your buddies, what good is that, anybody does that!” (paraphrased)

That is a good message… but one which may get you in hot water, if you apply it indiscriminately.
Why do we tell our children not to talk to strangers?
Why do we tell them not to open the door to strangers?

There are people who take advantage of our good nature and we must be wary of such people.

I know a theistic atheist Catholic. He rejects entirely the idea of the guy in the white beard (not that it is a Catholic-mandated image) and says “God is the essence of creation itself”. Leave it to a Philosopher to make God even more incomprehensible than He already is in our doctrine.

Sounds a bit like a deist: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism… or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_deism.
I’ve seen argued that the deist god is the only god for which nothing can be argued against. Nothing is claimed of him, except that he created the Universe. Since science hasn’t managed to provide an evidenced mechanism that kick-starts the Big-Bang, such a creator god remains a possibility in the minds of people…

Yes, it is difficult to forgive those we resent in general. But whom else are we Christians supposed to forgive? All of our friends we hold nothing against?
We are called to forgive everyone we hold something against, even the people who belong to ISIS, even people in history the likes of Hitler, everyone we hold anything against. Even ourselves! So, I post threads to help, this is one of them.

Yet, when we forgive and understand a person, the whole perception of evil as part of the person’s character simply falls away, and one is left with a person no different than oneself, and both you and he are beautiful. That is forgiveness from the heart, at the deeper level of understanding.

hmmmm… would you forgive a monster? A cannibal? Someone who, for no apparent reason, goes around killing children, hacking them with a dwarvish (Tolkien dwarf) axe?

I don’t like to talk in absolutes, though I sometimes fall in that trap myself.
Most people deserve forgiving, for they know not what they do, when they do what we perceive as wrong… they are often convinced that it’s for the greater good.

You perceive as wrong to reject God (about time we got back on topic ), I do not.
For me, it’s not even a rejection… when God itself is non-existent, rejection makes no sense, does it?
Am I rejecting Harry Potter, when I acknowledge that he’s just a fictional character?
Could that be because I lack some special knowledge and that’s why I attribute a high likelihood to God belonging to the man-made sphere of things?
What piece of special knowledge would you say that you have and I don’t?
While we’re at it, how would that special piece of knowledge of yours differ from the special knowledge that a Hindu or a Muslim may claim?

There is the example of Eva Kor, the Jewish holocaust survivor who forgave the Nazis, and I know Muslim people who have no doctrine of “original sin” but of “original forgiveness”, but I am finding a lot of variety in Islam. Found some rather disappointing things, but I have contacted some Muslim people to verify:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness#Islam

I think you would agree that if all peoples were to forgive without condition, the world would be a much better place. All Christian, meaning all forgiving? Yes, that would not be such a bad place.

Doesn’t every human of normal conscience live his life in a way such that if everyone held the same precepts, the world would be better, maybe even perfect?

Oh yeah! If everyone though like me, the world would be oh so much better!

• Said every single person ever.

But we’re all a bit different and that’s something that adds spice to life.

As for that wiki link about muslims forgiving others… it repeatedly says that muslims should only forgive other believers, which I read as “other muslims”.
In islam, the penalty for apostasy, the “total desertion of or departure from one’s religion”, is death. No ifs or buts:
youtube.com/watch?v=7XRCYlZ4XOQ
youtube.com/watch?v=5W1XXMPgG8M
youtube.com/watch?v=9yUJZ6fErmw
youtube.com/watch?v=7yGN8SlIEZ8
This next one… take care, the director of this small film was killed because of it (and it’s not 100% safe for work, if you know what I mean):
youtube.com/watch?v=6rS8FJyX3gs

Maybe these people are all a part of some plot to deceive the west…

 

[frangiuliano115]

Good Morning One Sheep.

Your thread is so time consuming that I always leave it for last! Not because it’s the least interesting.

Looks like I can’t even catch up this time.

I pulled out 3 or 4 of my favorite bibles and then realised I don’t really know what I’m looking for? We were supposed to do a bible study, if I remember. Help me out. Do you believe people should forgive all persons, or do you believe God forgives all persons? You mentioned my daughter - I fear there are conditions for her too. I mentioned something way back when about a grown child trying to throw the father off a balcony.

However, before that, could we speak of Mika for a moment?

Do you know who he is? I know he’s not so poplular in the U.S.

He’s a singer/songwriter. Very popular here. He’s about 35. He’s gay. He lives with his boyfriend. He’s tall and good looking. He’s a really nice person, a sweetheart really. I think anyone would enjoy having dinner with him.
He’s a conservative person and does not believe in SSM. I have difficulty finding a mean bone in his body. His innocence is captivating. I said innocence, not stupidity - some people have difficulty knowing the difference.

Please google the words to his song: No Place In Heaven.

Please tell me the answer.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning One Sheep.

Your thread is so time consuming that I always leave it for last! Not because it’s the least interesting.

Looks like I can’t even catch up this time.

I pulled out 3 or 4 of my favorite bibles and then realised I don’t really know what I’m looking for? We were supposed to do a bible study, if I remember. Help me out. Do you believe people should forgive all persons, or do you believe God forgives all persons? You mentioned my daughter - I fear there are conditions for her too. I mentioned something way back when about a grown child trying to throw the father off a balcony.

Hi Fran! Nice to have you back.

I agree with Pope Francis on this, “God always forgives”. As far as people forgiving all persons, I go back to Mark 11:25

25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”[a]

So yes, we are called to forgive everyone we hold anything against. If we hold nothing against a person, the call does not apply.

However, before that, could we speak of Mika for a moment?

Do you know who he is? I know he’s not so poplular in the U.S.

He’s a singer/songwriter. Very popular here. He’s about 35. He’s gay. He lives with his boyfriend. He’s tall and good looking. He’s a really nice person, a sweetheart really. I think anyone would enjoy having dinner with him.
He’s a conservative person and does not believe in SSM. I have difficulty finding a mean bone in his body. His innocence is captivating. I said innocence, not stupidity - some people have difficulty knowing the difference.

Please google the words to his song: No Place In Heaven.

Please tell me the answer.

Fran

There is a place in heaven for someone like him. Amazing lyrics, so much despair, so real. These matters are very complicated, but I know, as Pope Francis knows, that God always forgives. It starts with making that commitment to love someone unconditionally.

Try revisiting those conditions, Fran, and commit to shedding those conditions for just a day. I know someone whose children shoved him off the balcony, beat him, tortured him, and then, well, hung Him on a cross. Yet, He forgave. We can be so perfect. St. Stephen was so perfect in this way. Just try it for a day, you can always go back. Allow your mind to “go there”. What do you have to lose?

Thanks.

 

[OneSheep]

Some biases are suppressible, others… I must agree with you… :

Had a great response written up, then my browser crashed. Now I’m off to work. In the mean time, I emailed someone to get a Muslim response.

Oh, here is a counterargument:

onislam.net/english/reading-islam/understanding-islam/ethics-and-values/451497-the-power-of-forgiveness-an-islamic-perspective.html?Values=

Thanks, hope to get back to this tonight.

 

[pocaracas]

Had a great response written up, then my browser crashed. Now I’m off to work. In the mean time, I emailed someone to get a Muslim response.

Oh, here is a counterargument:

onislam.net/english/reading-islam/understanding-islam/ethics-and-values/451497-the-power-of-forgiveness-an-islamic-perspective.html?Values=

Thanks, hope to get back to this tonight.

Dr. Muzammil should know what he’s talking about, since it seems he got his degree from a Saudi school.
The trouble is that he chose a few particular verses which support his view… and neglected the verses in the wiki link you sent earlier.

It’s amazing how you can pick up a set of verses and support one behavior; while, if you take another set of verses, you support the exact opposite behavior.
The same happens with the bible, on occasion… the early catholic church’s desire to maintain the OT in there didn’t help in this respect.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi Fran! Nice to have you back.

I agree with Pope Francis on this, “God always forgives”. As far as people forgiving all persons, I go back to Mark 11:25

25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”[a]

So yes, we are called to forgive everyone we hold anything against. If we hold nothing against a person, the call does not apply.

There is a place in heaven for someone like him. Amazing lyrics, so much despair, so real. These matters are very complicated, but I know, as Pope Francis knows, that God always forgives. It starts with making that commitment to love someone unconditionally.

Try revisiting those conditions, Fran, and commit to shedding those conditions for just a day. I know someone whose children shoved him off the balcony, beat him, tortured him, and then, well, hung Him on a cross. Yet, He forgave. We can be so perfect. St. Stephen was so perfect in this way. Just try it for a day, you can always go back. Allow your mind to “go there”. What do you have to lose?

Thanks.

You say:

**There is a place in heaven for someone like him
**
So, we agree on something. Good.

Now, why would there be a place in heaven for Mika but not for a different person with his same state of being?? (homosexuality)

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Dr. Muzammil should know what he’s talking about, since it seems he got his degree from a Saudi school.
The trouble is that he chose a few particular verses which support his view… and neglected the verses in the wiki link you sent earlier.

It’s amazing how you can pick up a set of verses and support one behavior; while, if you take another set of verses, you support the exact opposite behavior.
The same happens with the bible, on occasion… the early catholic church’s desire to maintain the OT in there didn’t help in this respect.

Yeah, but whose voices lend themselves to the Kingdom, as we call it, to a better future? Let’s give all the applause and attention possible to those voices that call for forgiveness of enemies! Join me on this, bro, no use getting people defensive and emphasizing words that only serve to help divide and add to xenophobia. The way to peace is not found in those that exclude others, of any belief or religion.

Strongly tied with the sacrament of Eucharist is the whole concept of inclusion, eating together, all of us, as family.

Still working on that other post, it is much closer to the topic.

Thanks.

 

[pocaracas]

Yeah, but whose voices lend themselves to the Kingdom, as we call it, to a better future? Let’s give all the applause and attention possible to those voices that call for forgiveness of enemies! Join me on this, bro, no use getting people defensive and emphasizing words that only serve to help divide and add to xenophobia. The way to peace is not found in those that exclude others, of any belief or religion.

Strongly tied with the sacrament of Eucharist is the whole concept of inclusion, eating together, all of us, as family.

Oh yeah!
Give me a million of these for each of the others!

Still working on that other post, it is much closer to the topic.

Thanks.

Take your time!

 

[simpleas]

Maybe this debate would be pertinent to the thread, it is 2 hours long…
I’ve just watched it.

youtube.com/watch?v=LrIHw0fZNOA

The theme/question is “Is the catholic church a force for Good in the world”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Maybe this debate would be pertinent to the thread, it is 2 hours long…
I’ve just watched it.

youtube.com/watch?v=LrIHw0fZNOA

The theme/question is “Is the catholic church a force for Good in the world”

You expect people to watch a 2 hour long You-Tube video ‘question’ because the debate ‘might be pertinent to the thread?’

Uh, tell you what. YOU just watched it, right? Why don’t you take about a dozen of the ‘salient points’ for either side, present them, and tell us your opinion of which one had the best factual support.

I don’t need to watch somebody’s opinion (even if it coincides with mine) about whether the Church ‘is’ or ‘is not’ a force for Good. I know the answer. It is. I’ve listened for FAR more than ‘2 hours’ worth of time to counterarguments and they haven’t swayed me yet. I suppose somebody who finds the Church the Evil Empire (sorry, Yankees fans) wouldn’t be swayed by a mere 2 hour presentation either, unless they absolutely had never, ever, EVER been exposed to real facts, which I find hard (but not impossible) to believe. So it would be nice if you (having watched it) gave us some idea of points, on either ‘side’ which you found compelling, new, worthwhile, or whatever.

 

[OneSheep]

That is a good message… but one which may get you in hot water, if you apply it indiscriminately.
There are people who take advantage of our good nature and we must be wary of such people.
Why do we tell our children not to talk to strangers?

Ola’ pocaracas, (hey, it’s a start)
There is a distinction to be made between loving and having compassion for everyone and trusting everyone. Common sense and caution apply.

I’ve seen argued that the deist god is the only god for which nothing can be argued against. Nothing is claimed of him, except that he created the Universe. Since science hasn’t managed to provide an evidenced mechanism that kick-starts the Big-Bang, such a creator god remains a possibility in the minds of people…

Yes, but his viewing is more involved, very much part of creation, not just a kick-start.

hmmmm… would you forgive a monster? A cannibal? Someone who, for no apparent reason, goes around killing children, hacking them with a dwarvish (Tolkien dwarf) axe?
I don’t like to talk in absolutes, though I sometimes fall in that trap myself.
Most people deserve forgiving, for they know not what they do, when they do what we perceive as wrong… they are often convinced that it’s for the greater good.

You are presenting here exactly what this thread is meant to address. A monster? Well, “monster” is the word we use to describe what we see as inhuman, of which such seeing/perception is a function of the conscience. We condemn an action, and the perpetrator is automatically dehumanized in the mind. A cannibal? Cannibalism is mostly cultural, but the killing of outgroup members is a human thing, the outgroup members are not valued. So, the killing is of no consequence in their minds. And then, why waste all that food?

Now, let’s take the example of, say, the guy that went into that Amish school and blasted a bunch of kids, then killed himself. Is that a pretty close example to what you are talking about? Either way, there is an answer to the question:

Why did he kill the children? What did he want?

You perceive as wrong to reject God (about time we got back on topic ), I do not.
For me, it’s not even a rejection… when God itself is non-existent, rejection makes no sense, does it?

Exactly. Rejection of God is not the same as rejection of belief in God.

Am I rejecting Harry Potter, when I acknowledge that he’s just a fictional character?
Could that be because I lack some special knowledge and that’s why I attribute a high likelihood to God belonging to the man-made sphere of things?
What piece of special knowledge would you say that you have and I don’t?
While we’re at it, how would that special piece of knowledge of yours differ from the special knowledge that a Hindu or a Muslim may claim?

Well, each of our knowledge is “special” in that it is all based on a unique set of experiences. So, when I am explaining to a fellow Catholic that the atheist does not have our “knowledge”, I am saying that the atheists’ experience set is different than ours. Its all “special”, but your experiences lined everything up in a different way. Yes, I have bias toward my way, and that is okay. You have yours, and I respect yours; I think you can tell that. I would be completely comfortable with your thinking that there is something I am not considering when I claim faith in God. My faith has more to do with the experience of God in a carnation or in seeing a mother with a small child. It’s not a head-thing, it is more of a relationship with creation itself.

Anyway, that last item was a diversion from the topic (again) Feel free to address only the Amish school killer or a similar example.

Thanks pocaracas, all good stuff.

 

[OneSheep]

You say:

**There is a place in heaven for someone like him
**
So, we agree on something. Good.

Now, why would there be a place in heaven for Mika but not for a different person with his same state of being?? (homosexuality)

Fran

Hi Fran,

At the risk of turning this thread into something about homosexuality, which I do not want,I am going to go ahead and apply the premises I have already stated.

There is a place in heaven for everyone, everyone that chooses to be with God. God always forgives, remember? The “place” is there, the question is will they choose it? That is what brings us right back into this thread, does anyone ever knowingly and willingly reject God? Well, no, not in my observations.

Did we ever finish Judas? The next question would be, “why could he not accept God’s forgiveness?” My suggested answer was, “Because he could not forgive himself”. Did that explanation work for you, or was it insufficient? Why, or why not?

(That last question reminded me of my teaching days)

God Bless.