Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[simpleas]

What control does the Church have over peoples lives? Everyone has the freedom of will disregard anything and everything that the Church teaches.

What thinking does the Church do for anyone? Everyone is free to think anything they want, including whether there is an afterlife to worry about.

What if there really is a creator, and they reject him? How is this the rejection of a man made religion.

The control maybe about not having the freedom to decide on baptism (as a infant of course)

That’s what I thought about the thinking part, we all can think for ourselves, even us Catholic’s think differently on issues.

They maybe be thinking there is no God and so they are rejecting what man is teaching.

 

[OneSheep]

If you cannot K&W reject God, then you cannot K&W accept God. So how do you K&W accept God? That was my question. By accepting Him in your heart O.S. And if you accept God in your heart you have knowingly accepted Him and are on your way to heaven. Of course, this means you can also knowingly NOT accept Him. Have you heard of ying and yang?

That is a great point, Fran!

We really do not know what we are doing, in any sense, if we get super-philosophical about it. However, remember that the purpose of this thread is to help us to understand, and ultimately forgive, people. Part of that understanding is to observe and take ownership of our own blindness and ignorance. God loves all of His dumb sheep whether we accept, reject, or remain indifferent.

If a person said Yes to me. Good. If a person said No to me I’d send my only begotten Son to them so He could explain the concept to them. Upon hearing No after He hung on a cross for that person, I’d give up on him. Unless they changed their mind at some future date, prior to their death.

So my power may be infinte, but so is the person’s capability to say No. And if you say it to an infinite power - all the worse.

Do you remember what Pope Francis said? “God always waits for us.” He does not give up.

Why does the person say “no” after the seeing Him hanging on the cross? That is a great question for this thread.

Maybe you make things too simple O.S. You’re agreeing with an atheist on many ideas. Do you not think it’s a bit dangerous to be spreading the idea that God accepts everything and we should spend our days trying to explain things to people based on our own beliefs? Is this what christianity is all about?

Here is what Christianity is not about, and the writings of Pope Benedict, the words of Pope Francis, and many Catholics agree: It is not about constantly worrying about who is going to heaven. Such worry is based in fear. God always waits for us, God always forgives, God always understands. So, let’s stop worrying about the H-ticket and get out there and promote forgiveness, feed the hungry, heal the sick, and comfort the lonely, You do Bible studies? Help your students to move away from their fears, starting with fear of God. He is not out to punish us. Help your students learn how to forgive everyone. Show them that God’s love and forgiveness is infinite.

On the other hand, it is good to know your audience. Are some students slaves to their appetites? Tell them the millstone-around-the neck verses. How are we “better off” without an eye? We are no longer blinded by our passions. It’s all metaphorical. Keep in mind, constantly, that God always understands, loves, forgives, and waits for us. Show them things that cause real harm, and love will be their guide.

If my conversation with pocaracas helps some reader understand and forgive a murderer, then that is great! I would be willing to bet that you agree with him on many things also. It is okay.

Isn’t the whole idea of speaking to an atheist the hope that maybe something will sink in and they could learn to KNOWINGLY AND WILLINGLY ACCEPT GOD? (that’s not screaming as I’ve learned on this internet, it’s accenting important words).

Oh my, Fran. So that he will be “saved”? I will go so far to say that there may be atheists out there that know a great deal more about God than most Christians (including me), in a very spiritual way. These are people who live out their love of God (manifested as love of people) in a very real way: loving, serving, and centering their lives on that love. If an atheist is lost and suffering from his atheism in some way, then he may know where to turn.

Global reconciliation is a noble goal. My brother’s wife decided God called her to be a peacemaker, like in the beatitudes, about 10 years ago. It caused much strife in our family. I think she misunderstood God. She has since calmed down, maybe due to age and maturity. I certainly hope you’ve not misunderstood God.

hmmm. May have been the Don Quixote effect. We may all be quite guilty of trying to do good but just end up destroying a few windmills.

So now, before I go, I’d like to say that I’ve always said I don’t fully understand the forgiveness concept. But I know that I can only forgive those who have hurt me in this christian concept. I can’t forgive Mary down the block because she hurt Betty. Betty will have to do that. And if I don’t forgive someone, I know it hinders God somehow, but it certainly does not hinder Him from forgiving that person and getting them to heaven.

Nothing hinders God’s love and forgiveness, Fran. What is hindered when we don’t forgive is our own wholeness (holiness), earthly salvation. Holding grudges is a hindrance on our own spiritual joy.

Ciao!

 

[OneSheep]

TWO

And heaven is not a reward O.S. It’s a continuation of life down here. You yourself said that the Kingdom of God starts here. A correct christian concept. So let’s see:
Hitler is going to continue his life - will it be with God?
Ted Bundy is going to continue his life - will it be with God?
Mr. Dawkins is going to continue his life - will it be with God?

How does one go to be with a God they don’t knowingly accept?

Are you open-minded enough to see that all of these people can change their minds once they really see the Truth? Purgatory is a purification.

It does seem that you’re saying that I should forgive everyone as God forgives everyone. My christian religion teaches me that God doesn’t forgive everyone. Only those that have repented and are willing to convert. Repent: Change direction - from away from God towards God.

Well then your understanding of “Christian religion” is different than Pope Francis’. That’s okay, there is plenty of room in the Church for different views, Fran, especially for the view that God’s forgiveness is conditional.

Whew, Fran! So much to address! We can talk about one verse if you want. But moving back to the topic of this thread, what is your answer to this question:

Why does the person say “no” after the seeing Him hanging on the cross?

God Bless your day, Fran.

 

[OneSheep]

Picking up where I left off on post #524.

A person doesn’t look at life that way as far as I am concerned, considering I’ve lived over 60 years and know myself and friends and family. OneSheep, the way you think is not the same way I think. I may at times have a bad hair day. I don’t equate doing a bad thing when I eat a extra slice of my favorite piece of cake nor do I feel quilt for doing so. I just exercise a bit more the next day. Makes me feel great. And I must say I don’t spend much time on the “internet” because I’m enjoying running around doing my own thing(s) outside of the internet.

You take care Dearie. Remember life is worth living!

Well, I get the “life is worth living” part. What I stated in my post were scientific facts. People get a rush of “happy” neurotransmission when they do good, and get a shot of guilt when they do bad. Of course, this is depending on the formation of the conscience. If you eat the extra piece of cake, first your brain says, “yum!” and you get the very same happy high that you do from doing good. After the effects have worn off, if your conscience dictates, you will get a shot of guilt. Consciences are formed; every one is a little bit different.

Do you see what I am saying?

 

[davidv]

Are you open-minded enough to see that all of these people can change their minds once they really see the Truth? Purgatory is a purification.

Well then your understanding of “Christian religion” is different than Pope Francis’. That’s okay, there is plenty of room in the Church for different views, Fran, especially for the view that God’s forgiveness is conditional.

Whew, Fran! So much to address! We can talk about one verse if you want. But moving back to the topic of this thread, what is your answer to this question:

Why does the person say “no” after the seeing Him hanging on the cross?

God Bless your day, Fran.

It is clear for this selection from the CCC that your idea of universal forgiveness is not consistent with Church teaching.

2838 This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, “And forgive us our trespasses,” it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord’s Prayer, since Christ’s sacrifice is “that sins may be forgiven.” But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word “as.”

And forgive us our trespasses . . .
2839 With bold confidence, we began praying to our Father. In begging him that his name be hallowed, we were in fact asking him that we ourselves might be always made more holy. But though we are clothed with the baptismal garment, we do not cease to sin, to turn away from God. Now, in this new petition, we return to him like the prodigal son and, like the tax collector, recognize that we are sinners before him.133 Our petition begins with a “confession” of our wretchedness and his mercy. Our hope is firm because, in his Son, "we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."134 We find the efficacious and undoubted sign of his forgiveness in the sacraments of his Church.135
2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.
2841 This petition is so important that it is the only one to which the Lord returns and which he develops explicitly in the Sermon on the Mount.137 This crucial requirement of the covenant mystery is impossible for man. But "with God all things are possible."138
. . . as we forgive those who trespass against us
2842 This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."139 It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus.140 Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.141
2843 Thus the Lord’s words on forgiveness, the love that loves to the end,142 become a living reality. The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."143 It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.
2844 Christian prayer extends to the forgiveness of enemies,144 transfiguring the disciple by configuring him to his Master. Forgiveness is a high-point of Christian prayer; only hearts attuned to God’s compassion can receive the gift of prayer. Forgiveness also bears witness that, in our world, love is stronger than sin. The martyrs of yesterday and today bear this witness to Jesus. Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Father and of men with one another.145
2845 There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness,146 whether one speaks of “sins” as in *Luke *(11:4), “debts” as in *Matthew *(6:12). We are always debtors: "Owe no one anything, except to love one another."147 The communion of the Holy Trinity is the source and criterion of truth in every relationship. It is lived out in prayer, above all in the Eucharist.148
God does not accept the sacrifice of a sower of disunion, but commands that he depart from the altar so that he may first be reconciled with his brother. For God can be appeased only by prayers that make peace. To God, the better offering is peace, brotherly concord, and a people made one in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.149

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t think they are seeing the Church as an “evil” institution, they just don’t like the control it has over peoples lives. Like not allowing people to think for themselves in some situations in life, that a fear has to be installed into people, a threat of eternal damnation if they don’t live as they are told.

Yes, that is possible too. But does the Christian God eternally damn anyone? If a person sees this, they are seeing a false god, so if they reject, they are not K&WRG.

“God always waits for us, God always understands, God always forgives.”

Well some people would say that they have an intelligence and are pretty clued up on what the church says, but they willingly and knowingly reject the church and God by using their own thinking on how they will conduct their own lives.

So, we go back to the question, why does he conduct his life that way? In my observation, it is because of either lack of awareness or blindness is a relevant factor. Can you think of an example where it is not a relevant factor? There is something he does not know, or is blind to.

I think they may say they K&W do this, because they don’t need the comfort of knowing God, and they may not believe in a creator at all, so they aren’t rejecting a creator, just a man made religion.

Yes, they may be to some degree K&W rejecting a religion but not God. If they were to see the goodness of Christianity, and see that if followed correctly can positively change the world, they might have a different view. So, let’s prove that Christianity can positively change the world by promoting understanding and forgiveness!

 

[OneSheep]

It is clear for this selection from the CCC that your idea of universal forgiveness is not consistent with Church teaching.

The way the priest taught us, David, was that God always forgives. It is true that if we do not forgive others, we will not realize or grasp the full meaning of God’s forgiveness, but the forgiveness is always there.

Pope Francis Verified account
‏@Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

If you would like to bring forth a very specific section of the CCC and discuss how this is or is not a contradiction, let me know! Pick a section. It is not part of this thread, but I am pretty flexible, as you see.

God Bless.

 

[OneSheep]

Good evening,
No, I can’t…
Something terribly wrong must have been going on in that mind…
I do know that it is possible to have your moral center disconnected… do you know the tale of Phineas Cage? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage
He lost a piece of his brain in an accident, survived, but wasn’t the same person…

Hi

But you can relate to this also! When you are really, really angry at someone, you lose your mind a bit, right? And my son, totally in love with a car, at the expense of much else, has he not lost his mind a bit? And the addict, of course.

I can see monsters, like ISIS, as providing some benefit from their death…
But normal people going about their normal peaceful lives?.. I just can’t wrap my head around that…

So, the mass murderer also sees some benefit in the death of his victims. Hey, think of mosquitoes! How does it feel to defeat a band of attacking mosquitoes? To the mass murderer, his victims are only so many mosquitoes. He has not a clue what he is doing. Do you see, now, or is there a lingering resentment?

When we are seeing monsters, we are seeing people as mosquitoes. Do you see the tie? Mass murderer kill monsters, or metaphorical mosquitoes, they are not killing what they see as valuable humans, they are blind to value.

hehe… that will be a nice trip… you do it!
Now, you should be aware that the mexican spanish is a bit different from Spain’s version… specially if you “camino” goes through Santiago de Compostela, you’ll hear Galego which is a curious mix between portuguese and spanish.

The Spanish around here is a lot of “Spanglish”.

Your portuguese friends only speak spanish or english, because that’s what they have to speak… portuguese people can usually pick up a new language quite easily… spanish is mostly the same with a slightly different accent… and that isn’t difficult. English is now everyone’s second language… everyone, except the native english speakers.

Até amanhã!

Yet, more people still speak Mandarin. Not so easy that, right?

So, what do you think, can your get your head around the illusions that people hold? Have you ever thought a person really evil, like you really resent them, and then took the steps to understand? Little by little, the negativity sort of dissipates, you may not even be aware of it happening. And as it is happening, you are experiencing a greater wholeness or holiness. This is a mature forgiveness.

Yes, a holy atheist. Ooo, am I gonna catch it for that one…

 

[frangiuliano115]

That is a great point, Fran!

All my points are great. You just refuse to understand them. I do wonder how you could call yourself a christian if your ideas are not christian. We have to find a different religion for you.

We really do not know what we are doing, in any sense, if we get super-philosophical about it. However, remember that the purpose of this thread is to help us to understand, and ultimately forgive, people. Part of that understanding is to observe and take ownership of our own blindness and ignorance. God loves all of His dumb sheep whether we accept, reject, or remain indifferent.

I am not blind or ignorant; as are not most posters on this thread. We’ve been presented with the truth and have accepted it. Those who reject or remain indifferent to the truth may be a loved sheep, but they certainly are not in the fold. Sorry. That’s what God says, not me.

Do you remember what Pope Francis said? “God always waits for us.” He does not give up.

Here’s your problem O.S.: You’re following Pope Francis - I prefer to follow Jesus myself.

P.S. I think you’re not understanding him well. You should be understanding him a lot more what with only 1 degree of separation between you.

Why does the person say “no” after the seeing Him hanging on the cross? That is a great question for this thread.

Old Question. Old Answers. Here are some:
They don’t believe God exists
They don’t believe Jesus is God
They think He’s just a good guy or a nice prophet
They’re worried their lifestyle might have to change
They’re putting it off till they sow their wild oats
etc…

Here is what Christianity is not about, and the writings of Pope Benedict, the words of Pope Francis, and many Catholics agree: It is not about constantly worrying about who is going to heaven. Such worry is based in fear. God always waits for us, God always forgives, God always understands. So, let’s stop worrying about the H-ticket and get out there and promote forgiveness, feed the hungry, heal the sick, and comfort the lonely, You do Bible studies? Help your students to move away from their fears, starting with fear of God. He is not out to punish us. Help your students learn how to forgive everyone. Show them that God’s love and forgiveness is infinite.

Who’s worried about going to heaven? Sounds like maybe you are which is why you have to believe that everything is forgiven and accepted by God. We’ve lost a couple of generations of kids O.S. with all this lovey dovey stuff. I keep saying that God is a good God but He is also a JUST God. Someone forgot to tell you that part of christianity. I think a talk with Pope Francis would be in order since I’m sure he knows about this.

Here’s what my “students” do:

One is taking care of her handicapped brother
One spends two days gathering and distributin clothes to the needy in my town
Same one used to be a nurse and does help sick people who call on her for help
We all comfort the lonely the best we can by being nice to everyone
What I do is irrelevant but I leave it up to God to notice, not others

We don’t fear God. We love Him and trust in Him; not Pope Francis (this means no disrespect to the Pope but I would like to make a point).

On the other hand, it is good to know your audience. Are some students slaves to their appetites? Tell them the millstone-around-the neck verses. How are we “better off” without an eye? We are no longer blinded by our passions. It’s all metaphorical. Keep in mind, constantly, that God always understands, loves, forgives, and waits for us. Show them things that cause real harm, and love will be their guide.

No comment on the eye thing. You have it backwards. Please check again. Yes. And I do think Jesus meant it in a metraphorical way or we chrisitians would all be blind.

The millstone verse. You mean:

Come to me all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light".

Those pharisees didn’t make the labor and the load too easy, did they?

If my conversation with pocaracas helps some reader understand and forgive a murderer, then that is great! I would be willing to bet that you agree with him on many things also. It is okay.

A murderer is not released from prison until and unless he is repentant. Same goes for his relationship with God, and same with me. Forgiving everyone anything indiscriminantly is a license to kill without consequences. What kind of a society would we be living in??

Oh my, Fran. So that he will be “saved”? I will go so far to say that there may be atheists out there that know a great deal more about God than most Christians (including me), in a very spiritual way. These are people who live out their love of God (manifested as love of people) in a very real way: loving, serving, and centering their lives on that love. If an atheist is lost and suffering from his atheism in some way, then he may know where to turn.

Hmmmm. Atheists don’t love God.

hmmm. May have been the Don Quixote effect. We may all be quite guilty of trying to do good but just end up destroying a few windmills.

Hmmmm. Then better not to “do good”.

Nothing hinders God’s love and forgiveness, Fran. What is hindered when we don’t forgive is our own wholeness (holiness), earthly salvation. Holding grudges is a hindrance on our own spiritual joy.

Ciao!

Well, at least we agree on something!

end

 

[frangiuliano115]

Are you open-minded enough to see that all of these people can change their minds once they really see the Truth? Purgatory is a purification.

1. What do you mean by really see the Truth? Do you believe people are dumb?
2. Purgatory. Please don’t refer to purgatory as a purification for ALL. It’s only for saved people O.S. We’re either going UP or DOWN, there’s no third option. Purgatory is for those that are going UP.

Well then your understanding of “Christian religion” is different than Pope Francis’. That’s okay, there is plenty of room in the Church for different views, Fran, especially for the view that God’s forgiveness is conditional.

Not my view. The church’s view. The view of christianity.
Wait. Are you trying to tell me that the church has changed its position and I don’t know about it and we’re ALL saved?? So many books that will have to be rewritten. Including the bible!

Whew, Fran! So much to address! We can talk about one verse if you want. But moving back to the topic of this thread, what is your answer to this question:

Why does the person say “no” after the seeing Him hanging on the cross?

This was answered above. But you won’t accept the answer. Because the person is missing a piece of information. And it’s an important piece. He doesn’t accept God.

Dinner time!

In Christ
Fran

 

[davidv]

The way the priest taught us, David, was that God always forgives. It is true that if we do not forgive others, we will not realize or grasp the full meaning of God’s forgiveness, but the forgiveness is always there.

Pope Francis Verified account
‏@Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

If you would like to bring forth a very specific section of the CCC and discuss how this is or is not a contradiction, let me know! Pick a section. It is not part of this thread, but I am pretty flexible, as you see.

God Bless.

What happens if you keep God waiting and never come to Him?

 

[simpleas]

Yes, that is possible too. But does the Christian God eternally damn anyone? If a person sees this, they are seeing a false god, so if they reject, they are not K&WRG.

“God always waits for us, God always understands, God always forgives.”

So, we go back to the question, why does he conduct his life that way? In my observation, it is because of either lack of awareness or blindness is a relevant factor. Can you think of an example where it is not a relevant factor? There is something he does not know, or is blind to.

Yes, they may be to some degree K&W rejecting a religion but not God. If they were to see the goodness of Christianity, and see that if followed correctly can positively change the world, they might have a different view. So, let’s prove that Christianity can positively change the world by promoting understanding and forgiveness!

But does the Christian God eternally damn anyone?

According to our faith, possibly.

“God always waits for us, God always understands, God always forgives.”

Onesheep, you make God sound so very nice, it’s so unhuman…

So, we go back to the question, why does he conduct his life that way?

Because he wants to? You do accept that because a person does not believe in a creator that does not make that person blind or unaware?
There are plenty of “believers” who are pretty blind…

So, let’s prove that Christianity can positively change the world by promoting understanding and forgiveness!

I think that has been the message from the church since it began, but I do believe it has lost its way alittle.

 

[davidv]

According to our faith, possibly.

1. 
   *]I don’t believe this is true. It is the sinner that condemns themselves.
   

   17] For God sent the Son into the world, not to** condemn** the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
   ]18] He who believes in him is not* condemned; he who does not believe is condemn**ed already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3

   Onesheep, you make God sound so very nice, it’s so unhuman…
   
   Because he wants to? You do accept that because a person does not believe in a creator that does not make that person blind or unaware?
   There are plenty of “believers” who are pretty blind…
   
   I think that has been the message from the church since it began, but I do believe it has lost its way alittle.
   

 

[pocaracas]

Hi

But you can relate to this also! When you are really, really angry at someone, you lose your mind a bit, right? And my son, totally in love with a car, at the expense of much else, has he not lost his mind a bit? And the addict, of course.

So, the mass murderer also sees some benefit in the death of his victims. Hey, think of mosquitoes! How does it feel to defeat a band of attacking mosquitoes? To the mass murderer, his victims are only so many mosquitoes. He has not a clue what he is doing. Do you see, now, or is there a lingering resentment?

When we are seeing monsters, we are seeing people as mosquitoes. Do you see the tie? Mass murderer kill monsters, or metaphorical mosquitoes, they are not killing what they see as valuable humans, they are blind to value.

The Spanish around here is a lot of “Spanglish”.

Yet, more people still speak Mandarin. Not so easy that, right?

So, what do you think, can your get your head around the illusions that people hold? Have you ever thought a person really evil, like you really resent them, and then took the steps to understand? Little by little, the negativity sort of dissipates, you may not even be aware of it happening. And as it is happening, you are experiencing a greater wholeness or holiness. This is a mature forgiveness.

Yes, a holy atheist. Ooo, am I gonna catch it for that one…

I may come to understand all the processes - physical, chemical, environmental… - that made a human turn into a monster, but I doubt I can forgive him for it.
I may lock him up to study him until I can understand him… once I understand, I don’t think I can set him free… I can’t forgive him. Not just like that.
And I’ll just know he’ll do the same again.

Those processes in his mind may come to be reversed… that may come by naturally - spontaneous remission of the tumor - by surgery - removal of the tumor - or by some other high-tech method that appears due to our understanding of his full working brain.

Can’t say this is a greater wholeness… you be the judge.

 

[OneSheep]

I may come to understand all the processes - physical, chemical, environmental… - that made a human turn into a monster, but I doubt I can forgive him for it.
I may lock him up to study him until I can understand him… once I understand, I don’t think I can set him free… I can’t forgive him. Not just like that.
And I’ll just know he’ll do the same again.

Those processes in his mind may come to be reversed… that may come by naturally - spontaneous remission of the tumor - by surgery - removal of the tumor - or by some other high-tech method that appears due to our understanding of his full working brain.

Can’t say this is a greater wholeness… you be the judge.

Oh, I get it! You are using a different understanding of forgiveness. I am using this one:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness

I can’t be the judge. The question is, if you had any resentment towards the person, after you understand, do you forgive (wiki defn)? Do you hold his actions against him?

Can you see the mosquito perception?

 

[Aloysium]

. . .'The question is, if you had any resentment towards the person, after you understand, do you forgive (wiki defn)? Do you hold his actions against him? . . .

Paul Lazzaro is a character in Kurt Vonnegut’s sci-fi novel Slaughterhouse-5.
I thought his statement pertinent to the discussion, providing an alternate view of how to deal with hurt.

You should have seen what I did a to a dog one time…

“Son of a ••••• bit me. So I got me some steak, and I got me the spring out of a clock. I cut that spring up in little pieces. I put points on the ends of the pieces. They were sharp as razor blades. I stuck 'em into the steak–way inside. And I went past where they had the dog tied up. He wanted to bite me again. I said to him, ‘Come on, doggie–let’s be friends. Let’s not be enemies any more. I’m not mad.’ He believed me…

“I threw him the steak. He swallowed it down in one big gulp. I waited around for ten minutes. Blood started coming out of his mouth. He started crying, and he rolled on the ground, as though the knives were on the outside of him instead of the inside of him. Then he tried to bite out his own insides. I laughed, and I said to him, ‘You got the right idea now. Tear you own guts out, boy. That’s me in there with all those knives.’"

An extreme attitude to be sure, but I believe we all recognize the feelings, whether repellant or embraced.
When one treats another with such murderous intent, how does one not know exactly what one is doing?

 

[frangiuliano115]

Paul Lazzaro is a character in Kurt Vonnegut’s sci-fi novel Slaughterhouse-5.
I thought his statement pertinent to the discussion, providing an alternate view of how to deal with hurt.

An extreme attitude to be sure, but I believe we all recognize the feelings, whether repellant or embraced.
When one treats another with such murderous intent, how does one not know exactly what one is doing?

Good example. Paul Lazzaro might have had what he thought was a good reason and all that planning did seem as though he knew what he was doing! So many examples, even in real life. As if stuff like this doesn’t really happen… And not only to animals.

I think it’s really dangerous not to understand human nature and to say that everything is to be forgiven. And to couple this with christianity as if christianity taught this.

Jesus said to be gentle as doves and wise as serpents. Guess that means He knew there were serpents out there and that we should be watchful for them and keep away from them - which is literally what He said.

When I think of man’s inhumanity to man it makes me nauseous. Apparently the O.P. can accept this. I’m not looking forward to being in the same room with these people.

Fran
P.S. Maybe satan has won the war. He doesn’t exist and hell doesn’t exist.

 

[Aloysium]

Vonnegut’s story is set in the Second World War and deals with the senseless bombing of a civilian target, Dresden, which was apparently worse than Hiroshima. The brutality of war is reflected in Lazzaro’s vindictive sadism. Innocents are fodder for the war machine. On the other hand, except for the children, who is innocent when “good” people sit back and allow evil to flourish. And, where can we best confront evil but within ourselves. We need only own up to what we’ve done. Christ has paid the price for our sins. In dying to them and through His resurrection, we are brought to new life.

 

[OneSheep]

Paul Lazzaro is a character in Kurt Vonnegut’s sci-fi novel Slaughterhouse-5.
I thought his statement pertinent to the discussion, providing an alternate view of how to deal with hurt.

An extreme attitude to be sure, but I believe we all recognize the feelings, whether repellant or embraced.
When one treats another with such murderous intent, how does one not know exactly what one is doing?

Hi Aloysium,

That is a great question! When one treats another with such murderous intent, how does one not know exactly what one is doing?

So, let’s start and the beginning and then go forward. What does the character know about what he is doing? Then, we can look and see if there is anything relevant that he should know but does not, or is blinded from such knowing (i.e. empathy blockage).

I think that it is really great that you are using cruelty to a dog for your example. Yes, cruelty to one of God’s beautiful creatures is indeed rejection of God. My own dog is with me most of the day, she comes to work with me. She thinks she is a person, of course, and is quite intelligent. I told her about your post, and she is definitely on your side.

So, what does the character know?

 

[Thomas_White]

From a homily at St.Peter’s Basilica, by Fr. Raniero Cantalmessa:

Yet God’s measure of justice is different from ours and if he sees good faith or blameless ignorance he saves even those who had been anxious to fight him in their lives. We believers should prepare ourselves for surprises in this regard.

vatican.va/liturgical_year/holy-week/2009/documents/holy-week_homily-fr-cantalamessa_20090410_en.html

However, has any person been “anxious to fight him” knowingly and willingly? I am looking for an example of this.

If “anxious to fight him” means what I think it does, which is anxious to enjoy the pleasures of sin, then there are surely plenty of examples.