Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[SuperLuigi]

It would seem to be the case.

“Many are called, few are chosen”.

 

[OneSheep]

If “anxious to fight him” means what I think it does, which is anxious to enjoy the pleasures of sin, then there are surely plenty of examples.

Welcome Thomas!

Yes, it seems that there should be, but you may find it extremely difficult. You may try to come up with examples, consider them carefully, and then realize that the sinner was ignorant or blind. I think that is what has happened, because every example brought forth so far has not come up with K&W rejection of God. Just find a specific example, and we will test the knowledge of the character to determine if all relevant information was considered.

If you haven’t been following the thread, we are not addressing Adam, because his nature has been carefully described as not having “concupiscence”, which makes his humanity far too different than our own. Also, please do not bring up personal examples, because we need to go into too much detail, which is not a good idea given that it is a public forum.

Other than those, give it a try!

Thank you.

 

[OneSheep]

It would seem to be the case.

“Many are called, few are chosen”.

Welcome, SuperLuigi!

Feel free to present an example and we can investigate!

Thanks.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Welcome, SuperLuigi!

Feel free to present an example and we can investigate!

Thanks.

According to one of the Fatima testimonies, there would appear to be human souls in Hell. As Father Serpa recently noted, “people choose to go to Hell”.

So they obviously knowingly and willingly reject God.

 

[oldcelt]

According to one of the Fatima testimonies, there would appear to be human souls in Hell. As Father Serpa recently noted, “people choose to go to Hell”.

So they obviously knowingly and willingly reject God.

Or one particular version of God. The notion of someone choosing to go into eternal, whatever, makes no sense. That is stated with great respect for Father Serpa.

John

 

[Thomas_White]

Welcome Thomas!

Yes, it seems that there should be, but you may find it extremely difficult. You may try to come up with examples, consider them carefully, and then realize that the sinner was ignorant or blind. I think that is what has happened, because every example brought forth so far has not come up with K&W rejection of God. Just find a specific example, and we will test the knowledge of the character to determine if all relevant information was considered.

If you haven’t been following the thread, we are not addressing Adam, because his nature has been carefully described as not having “concupiscence”, which makes his humanity far too different than our own. Also, please do not bring up personal examples, because we need to go into too much detail, which is not a good idea given that it is a public forum.

Other than those, give it a try!

Thank you.

Well, it would seem if good faith or blameless ignorance are seen, forgiveness would not be a surprise. But perhaps a person on their deathbed, in the last moments of their life, could in good faith knowingly and willingly, and not out of ignorance, fight him by calling out, “Lord, not just yet!”

 

[OneSheep]

According to one of the Fatima testimonies, there would appear to be human souls in Hell. As Father Serpa recently noted, “people choose to go to Hell”.

So they obviously knowingly and willingly reject God.

Hi SuperLuigi,

I did not really want to get into a Fatima discussion, but please remember that Catholics are not bound to believe in the revelations of Our Lady of Fatima, Lourdes, etc. The Church has not integrated what was said there as doctrine.

Yes, if anyone goes to hell, it is their choice to do so. However, nothing in Church doctrine says that anyone is decidedly there. I love Fr. Serpa, please do not hear him incorrectly. He is not claiming to know that anyone has made that choice.

That said, that is a great starting point! Why would a person choose hell?

 

[OneSheep]

Well, it would seem if good faith or blameless ignorance are seen, forgiveness would not be a surprise. But perhaps a person on their deathbed, in the last moments of their life, could in good faith knowingly and willingly, and not out of ignorance, fight him by calling out, “Lord, not just yet!”

Hmmm. Are you saying that calling out is a willing rejection of God, or is it a petition? Maybe I am missing the tone?

If the person was merely angry at God because things are happening against his will, then what he is not understanding is God’s will, right?

Please don’t feel that such rejection has to be limited to a “fighting”, it might be more difficult to come up with an example that way.

 

[OneSheep]

Good example. Paul Lazzaro might have had what he thought was a good reason and all that planning did seem as though he knew what he was doing! So many examples, even in real life. As if stuff like this doesn’t really happen… And not only to animals.

I think it’s really dangerous not to understand human nature and to say that everything is to be forgiven. And to couple this with christianity as if christianity taught this.
.

Fran,

Christianity teaches us that we can forgive everyone we hold anything against. It is not dangerous to understand human nature. Understanding is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now, you would not want to reject the Holy Spirit, right? Indeed, refusal to understand is a rejection, Fran. If anything is “dangerous”, such refusal is so, if we are sticking with the “alternative 1” in post 264.

Now, back to Paul Lazzaro. “He might have thought what he had was a good reason” already communicates what you know intuitively, Fran! Yes, he thought he had a good reason, but he was grossly incorrect. He did not know what he was doing. I do not want to say that is true by my assertion, though!

So, please, if you could explain why Paul Lazzaro did what he did, we can determine if there was a K&WR going on there.

Thanks, please don’t give up on this one, Fran! Tell me what was going on in Paul’s mind!

 

[OneSheep]

Renewed Invitation!

Anyone thinking that a person ever knowingly and willingly rejects God, please come forward and present an example! Please also be ready and willing to investigate the mindset and motives of the individual.

If you cannot think of an example, try Aloysium’s example in post 573. Did Paul Lazzaro behave knowingly and wilingly? Did he knowingly and willingly reject God? Fictional characters are a great starting point, because you can invent the mindset.

Thanks!

I will be able to respond to posts for the next 24 hours when I can, then I will be away from the computer until October 7, I think.

 

[Thomas_White]

I don’t think so. It would be an instance where a person’s will to live was in opposition to God’s will. IMHO, the example suffices.

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t think so. It would be an instance where a person’s will to live was in opposition to God’s will. IMHO, the example suffices.

So, if a person wants to remain alive, and is angry about death, he is rejecting God, Thomas?

If I were to disobey a traffic law, would I be rejecting my nation? No, I am rejecting the law as relevant or pertinent. If I am angry at the government, am I rejecting the government altogether? No, I am angry about a particular action.

Indeed, though I may somewhat understand the “will” of the government, how can any person know God’s will concerning the hour of our death? The man’s anger is based in not knowing God’s will.

Let’s put it this way. If the man knew why God was ready for his soul, would he be angry? Feel free to invent a scenario. Is he particularly angry because his family has no means of support?

Thanks! Do you see what I mean? It is difficult to come up with an example.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Fran,

Christianity teaches us that we can forgive everyone we hold anything against. It is not dangerous to understand human nature. Understanding is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now, you would not want to reject the Holy Spirit, right? Indeed, refusal to understand is a rejection, Fran. If anything is “dangerous”, such refusal is so, if we are sticking with the “alternative 1” in post 264.

Now, back to Paul Lazzaro. “He might have thought what he had was a good reason” already communicates what you know intuitively, Fran! Yes, he thought he had a good reason, but he was grossly incorrect. He did not know what he was doing. I do not want to say that is true by my assertion, though!

So, please, if you could explain why Paul Lazzaro did what he did, we can determine if there was a K&WR going on there.

Thanks, please don’t give up on this one, Fran! Tell me what was going on in Paul’s mind!

Hi One Sheep,

See what I mean? You don’t listen! I didn’t say it’s dangerous to know human nature, I said it’s dangerous NOT to know human nature. Knowing human nature can save you from a lot of pain and aggravation from people who are more than knowingly and willingly able to cause you to become upset.

You do get things backwards sometimes. This idea of yours is a bit backwards too!

You’re saying: “You wouldn’t want to reject the H.S.”. Does this mean I CAN reject the H.S. Boy, but you are confusing! I DO understand. YOU misunderstood.

What was Paul thinking? Paul wasn’t thinking straight because he WAS listening to something or someone that was encouraging him to do something, take some action. He decided that it seemed a good thing to do. He didn’t know the dog would feel pain, and he didn’t care because of some grave and terrible thing that happened to him when he was a child. (just a thought, I can’t remember the story very well). So he felt it would be okay to go ahead and take the action.

Now. Who or what was he listening to and who or what was he obeying? Was it God?
Was it satan?

To me it’s as simple as that One Sheep. Unless he has a real mental problem and I leave those cases to God. Most of us know what we’re doing. We decide to take a particular action. We choose whom we will serve.

Could you please furnish all of us here with some scripture to support your position?

Please read John 3:17-22

Enjoy your stay away from the computer.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Hi One Sheep,

See what I mean? You don’t listen! I didn’t say it’s dangerous to know human nature, I said it’s dangerous NOT to know human nature. Knowing human nature can save you from a lot of pain and aggravation from people who are more than knowingly and willingly able to cause you to become upset.

Oops, I did misread your post.
But I was not upset, though I am not sure you implied I was.

You do get things backwards sometimes. This idea of yours is a bit backwards too!

You’re saying: “You wouldn’t want to reject the H.S.”. Does this mean I CAN reject the H.S. Boy, but you are confusing! I DO understand. YOU misunderstood.

Yes, people can reject God, what I have been sayiing is that we never do so knowingly and willingly.

What was Paul thinking? Paul wasn’t thinking straight because he WAS listening to something or someone that was encouraging him to do something, take some action. He decided that it seemed a good thing to do. He didn’t know the dog would feel pain, and he didn’t care because of some grave and terrible thing that happened to him when he was a child. (just a thought, I can’t remember the story very well). So he felt it would be okay to go ahead and take the action.

Right, he did not behave knowingly and willingly. His blinded by his anger, blindness to the truth that the dog was of value. So, in what way is this a knowing and willing rejection of God?

Now. Who or what was he listening to and who or what was he obeying? Was it God?
Was it satan?

To me it’s as simple as that One Sheep. Unless he has a real mental problem and I leave those cases to God. Most of us know what we’re doing. We decide to take a particular action. We choose whom we will serve.

Could you please furnish all of us here with some scripture to support your position?

Please read John 3:17-22

Enjoy your stay away from the computer.

Fran

In one sense, he was obeying his nature. Paul’s nature, like all of us, includes automatic blindness (blocked empathy) when we are angry and resentful. This is an instinctual part of our nature. However, if by your view he was following a voice other than God, he was believing, and acting on, an untruth.

So, it is certainly relevant that he was seeing an untruth as true. All demonization/dehumanization of people is an untruth. It was by this same untruth that people hung Jesus.

So, I refreshed my memory on John 3:17-22. Are you thinking that something I said contradicts those verses?

Thanks, sorry about the misread. I’m still working on that “perfection” stuff.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Oops, I did misread your post.
But I was not upset, though I am not sure you implied I was.

No such implication.

Yes, people can reject God, what I have been sayiing is that we never do so knowingly and willingly.

Yes. And you must be right because no one seems to be able to come up with a good example!

Right, he did not behave knowingly and willingly. His blinded by his anger, blindness to the truth that the dog was of value. So, in what way is this a knowing and willing rejection of God?

Oh yes. He was listening to satan and following his orders. I’d say that’s K&W rejecting God - that other big power we spoke about. You cannot have two masters. Either you will love the one and hate the other, or love the one and despise the other. John 6:24. Jesus was talking about money, but we could have other gods too. Our very anger could be a god. Following satan is following a god, just not the right one.

In one sense, he was obeying his nature. Paul’s nature, like all of us, includes automatic blindness (blocked empathy) when we are angry and resentful. This is an instinctual part of our nature. However, if by your view he was following a voice other than God, he was believing, and acting on, an untruth.

Once you know God you are no longer blind. You’re only blind when following satan and that certainly won’t get you to heaven - and you won’t have heaven here on earth either.
The whole point in knowing God is that you become infused with part of His divine nature. We’re all called saints, as I’m sure you know. Saints don’t act like Paul L. did.

So, it is certainly relevant that he was seeing an untruth as true. All demonization/dehumanization of people is an untruth. It was by this same untruth that people hung Jesus.

The Jews had to be dehumanized for the Nazis. Sometimes we agree.

So, I refreshed my memory on John 3:17-22. Are you thinking that something I said contradicts those verses?

If someone can be condemned, it can only be so if they reject God knowingly since God is a just God. And who are all those people crying out in Luke 16:19?

So you say we choose to go to hell, but who’s in hell if no one knows that they are knowingly and willingly rejecting God? It makes no sense One Sheep.

Fran

 

[simpleas]

Renewed Invitation!

Anyone thinking that a person ever knowingly and willingly rejects God, please come forward and present an example! Please also be ready and willing to investigate the mindset and motives of the individual.

If you cannot think of an example, try Aloysium’s example in post 573. Did Paul Lazzaro behave knowingly and wilingly? Did he knowingly and willingly reject God? Fictional characters are a great starting point, because you can invent the mindset.

Thanks!

I will be able to respond to posts for the next 24 hours when I can, then I will be away from the computer until October 7, I think.

If we are inventing the mind set how can we decide if anyone k&w rejects God or anything for that matter?

 

[pocaracas]

Sorry for cutting in…

Yes. And you must be right because no one seems to be able to come up with a good example!

That’s because OneSheep keeps expanding the definition of knowing to a non-human level.

What is the standard definition of knowledge? (philosophypages.com/dy/k9.htm#know

knowledge {Gk. γνωσις [gnôsis]; Lat. cognitio; Ger. Wissen}

Justified true belief. Since Plato, nearly all Western philosophers have accepted this deceptively simple statement of the three necessary (and jointly sufficient) conditions for knowledge. That is, I know a proposition if and only if:

a. I sincerely affirm the proposition,
b. the proposition is true, and
c. my affirmation is genuinely based upon its truth.

The correct analysis of each element of the definition, however, is open to question. Philosophers have held different views about the nature of belief and have proposed many different theories of truth.

“justified true belief”… this is why some people will claim they know God, while others will scoff at such rashness.

Anyway, I see “rejection of God” as actually rejecting what God has to offer (correct me if I’m wrongs, OneSheep).
Given the way that God has made itself acquainted with mankind, it is difficult to actually know about him…
That’s why we have religions, also known as, belief systems.
If those beliefs are truly justified is a matter for another thread, ok? Let’s just say they’re not, simply because of the existence of different religions (even if, at some point in the future, there is only one - the argument stands due to the fact that multiple religions existed on this planet).

Given that (and I know I’m asking a lot of you guys), it’s impossible to know God… so how could you knowingly reject it?.. you don’t know it.

 

[Aloysium]

God is love. Every time one acts in an unloving manner, and we all know, even five-year-olds, when that is, we reject God. One need not be an omniscient theologian to have the capacity to sin.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes. And you must be right because no one seems to be able to come up with a good example!

Oh yes. He was listening to satan and following his orders. I’d say that’s K&W rejecting God - that other big power we spoke about. You cannot have two masters. Either you will love the one and hate the other, or love the one and despise the other. John 6:24. Jesus was talking about money, but we could have other gods too. Our very anger could be a god. Following satan is following a god, just not the right one.

Hi Fran,

But there remains that reality, that if a person is believing the voice of their own anger as “truth”, well they are believing an untruth. This is not knowing what they are doing.

Once you know God you are no longer blind. You’re only blind when following satan and that certainly won’t get you to heaven - and you won’t have heaven here on earth either.
The whole point in knowing God is that you become infused with part of His divine nature. We’re all called saints, as I’m sure you know. Saints don’t act like Paul L. did.

The way I look at it, the human is still subject to “strong desire” and blindness even after we know more of God (No one completely knows God, nor probably even most of who He is, we know of His love because of Christ). It is our nature that we have blindness in the cases of desire and resentment, and our knowing God does not change our nature, but gives us the tools to transcend, be free of, our nature.

The best I can do in the case of anger is to realize that I am angry, and then take the steps to forgive. Paul L. did not value, or did not think to forgive, the dog.

If someone can be condemned, it can only be so if they reject God knowingly since God is a just God. And who are all those people crying out in Luke 16:19?

So you say we choose to go to hell, but who’s in hell if no one knows that they are knowingly and willingly rejecting God? It makes no sense One Sheep.
Fran

Can someone be condemned? Does God condemn anyone? Wait a minute, remember Pope Francis? “God is always waiting for us. God always understands us. God always forgives us.”

Luke 16:19? a rich man dressed in purple?

Yes, good question, who is in hell? The Church has never said any specific person is there, nor claims to know for certain that it is populated at all.

 

[OneSheep]

Sorry for cutting in…

That’s because OneSheep keeps expanding the definition of knowing to a non-human level.

Hi pocaras,

That is not true, so you are “unknowing”. Actually, I even used your term as “relevant knowledge” rather than my term of “pertinent knowledge” (not that that makes a tremendous difference.)

What is the standard definition of knowledge? (philosophypages.com/dy/k9.htm#know

“justified true belief”… this is why some people will claim they know God, while others will scoff at such rashness.

Note that the “standard definition” said “that the proposition is true”. One person may say that the human is beautiful and valuable, and another may say that the human is worthless, and both may see their propositions as sincerely true.

One of them, however, is thinking that an untruth is true. This is not “knowingly”, and it is not knowledge at a non-human level. tão lá! (hope that is not insulting in your language)

Anyway, I see “rejection of God” as actually rejecting what God has to offer (correct me if I’m wrongs, OneSheep).

Correction: “Rejection of God” might include rejecting what God has to offer, but rejection also means purposely saying no to God’s love. It means saying no to Love, which includes the example of Paul Lazarro, Paul of Tarsus, the crowd who hung Jesus, Judas, etc. It also means something like saying or believing “there is no value here”.

Given the way that God has made itself acquainted with mankind, it is difficult to actually know about him…
That’s why we have religions, also known as, belief systems.
If those beliefs are truly justified is a matter for another thread, ok? Let’s just say they’re not, simply because of the existence of different religions (even if, at some point in the future, there is only one - the argument stands due to the fact that multiple religions existed on this planet).

Yes, as Christians we believe that we know God by knowing Christ.

Given that (and I know I’m asking a lot of you guys), it’s impossible to know God… so how could you knowingly reject it?.. you don’t know it.

God is love, and we can know love, so in some sense we can know God. It is a bit vague though… it is harder for Western philosophical minds to comprehend.
To me, it is not that we cannot knowingly reject God because we can’t know God. Love is knowable as a guide for our lives. To me, it is that because of our nature, our desire to love and do what is beneficial, we *never * knowingly and willingly reject God. We “cannot” because our nature goes against such knowing rejection.

I am talking anthropology, remember? The human is beautiful, wonderful, and yes, stupid, but smart enough to eventually know Love. (until we are blinded in some way)
Hope that clarifies my position.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes!