Does God "TEST" us....?

[BobCatholic]

Will you get a greater good from the fasting?

If one goes to hell because they were rejected, then none.

Why is it better to give up you job?

If one goes to hell because they were rejected, then it is not.

Where did I say this? Please address what I write.

OK then answer my question.

Why does God want us to give up a guaranteed good for a NOT guaranteed greater good?
I have a bird in the hand, why give up for two in the bush, unless God guarantees I’ll get it.

You claim the greater good is guaranteed (since you disagree with my view above). Unless I"m going to heaven, there is no greater good. So heaven is to be guaranteed. That’s OSAS. If you’re not preaching OSAS, then you’re preaching the prosperity gospel (since this greater good must therefore happen on the planet)

As long as it takes. St. Monica waited over 30 years for the conversion of Augustine.

How long does it take?

So you’re saying I can overrule God’s will if I pray 30 years for my son?

How do you give up your soul?

You’re the one who implied it.

We are to deny our selves to follow Jesus. If you said soul=self that means to give up our soul. Can’t “deny a soul”

Therefore your definition of soul=self is incorrect.

 

[davidv]

If one goes to hell because they were rejected, then none.

If one goes to hell because they were rejected, then it is not.

OK then answer my question.

Why does God want us to give up a guaranteed good for a NOT guaranteed greater good?

I cannot answer this because I don’t believe this is what God is asking of us. God asks us to give up the not-good (sin) to gain the ultimate good (being in His presence for eternity).

I have a bird in the hand, why give up for two in the bush, unless God guarantees I’ll get it.

You claim the greater good is guaranteed (since you disagree with my view above).

I have said nothing of guarantees. That is your word.

Unless I"m going to heaven, there is no greater good. So heaven is to be guaranteed. That’s OSAS. If you’re not preaching OSAS, then you’re preaching the prosperity gospel (since this greater good must therefore happen on the planet).

I am not teaching either. I am attempting to share the Gospel of Jesus, Son of the living God and Savior of the world.

How long does it take?

Apparently longer than you are willing to wait.

So you’re saying I can overrule God’s will if I pray 30 years for my son?

Every time you exercise you will to not trust Him you are in a sense overruling Him. He desires your eternal happiness.

You’re the one who implied it.

An incorrect assumption on your part.

We are to deny our selves to follow Jesus. If you said soul=self that means to give up our soul. Can’t “deny a soul”

Why do you think denying means giving up?

Therefore your definition of soul=self is incorrect.

I did not say they were exactly equal.

 

[BobCatholic]

I cannot answer this because I don’t believe this is what God is asking of us. God asks us to give up the not-good (sin) to gain the ultimate good (being in His presence for eternity).

But he does not guarantee the latter, only the former is guaranteed.

I have said nothing of guarantees. That is your word.

Then how does that answer my question?

Why does God want us to give up a guaranteed good for a NOT guaranteed greater good?

I am not teaching either.

Then you didn’t answer my question.

Apparently longer than you are willing to wait.

Apparently longer than I am ABLE to wait.

Every time you exercise you will to not trust Him you are in a sense overruling Him. He desires your eternal happiness.

If He desires my eternal happiness, why doesn’t he desire my temporal happiness?
Why won’t he even talk to me?

An incorrect assumption on your part.

Then what did you mean?

Why do you think denying means giving up?

Because you said so earlier in this post
“God asks us to give up the not-good (sin) to gain the ultimate good (being in His presence for eternity)”

Clearly the self is evil, since we are told to give up our selves.

I did not say they were exactly equal.

Then you’re going to have to do a better job communicating, because you clearly acted as if soul=self. I disagree.

 

[davidv]

But he does not guarantee the latter, only the former is guaranteed.

I don’t understand why you think anything in this life, other than physical death, is guaranteed.

Then how does that answer my question?

Why does God want us to give up a guaranteed good for a NOT guaranteed greater good?

Then you didn’t answer my question.

Apparently longer than I am ABLE to wait.

If He desires my eternal happiness, why doesn’t he desire my temporal happiness?
Why won’t he even talk to me?

Then what did you mean?

Because you said so earlier in this post
“God asks us to give up the not-good (sin) to gain the ultimate good (being in His presence for eternity)”

Clearly the self is evil, since we are told to give up our selves.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I have no idea how to express myself differently.

Then you’re going to have to do a better job communicating, because you clearly acted as if soul=self. I disagree.

Then meet me half way and ask questions rather and assume that you understand what I wrote.

Why do think we have to “give up our self”?

 

[BobCatholic]

I don’t understand why you think anything in this life, other than physical death, is guaranteed.

When I say “guaranteed” - I have something to offer, that is in my hand, it is guaranteed now. I’m asked to give up something, which I have now, guaranteed, for something that I don’t have yet, and is not guaranteed.

So if there was nothing to give up, then I have nothing in my hand, so I have to give up nothing

So I’m asked to give up something I have in my hand, for something that may not come in the future. Not because God breaks his promises, but because I am the weakest link and am worried God will say “I do not know you.”

Why do think we have to “give up our self”?

Because the self is evil. God does not demand us to give up good things. We are to give up evil and sin.

 

[davidv]

When I say “guaranteed” - I have something to offer, that is in my hand, it is guaranteed now. I’m asked to give up something, which I have now, guaranteed, for something that I don’t have yet, and is not guaranteed.

So if there was nothing to give up, then I have nothing in my hand, so I have to give up nothing

So I’m asked to give up something I have in my hand, for something that may not come in the future. Not because God breaks his promises, but because I am the weakest link and am worried God will say “I do not know you.”

Because the self is evil. God does not demand us to give up good things. We are to give up evil and sin.

You have yet to show that the self is evil, nor that we have to give up our self.

In order to love God we must become that best version of our self as possible. This requires the humility to recognize that we are the creature, not the creator. It requires that we trust in the promises that God has made to us. It requires that that we love God above all else and to love our neighbors as our self. These things often entail sacrifices, but never the sacrifice of self, which remain uniquely ours.

 

[BobCatholic]

You have yet to show that the self is evil, nor that we have to give up our self.

OK, so Christ’s words are not good enough for you.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

In order to love God we must become that best version of our self as possible. This requires the humility to recognize that we are the creature, not the creator.

So far so good! I’m there.

It requires that we trust in the promises that God has made to us.

Agreed.

Did God promise to heal our sufferings here on this 3rd rock from the sun? No.
Did God promise to say yes to every single prayer request we give Him? No.

These things often entail sacrifices, but never the sacrifice of self, which remain uniquely ours.

Unfortunately, Christ and His Church disagrees with you.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

CCC 591 But such an act of faith must go through a mysterious death to self, for a new “birth from above” under the influence of divine grace.

CCC 1814 By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.”

1657 It is here that the father of the family, the mother, children, and all members of the family exercise the priesthood of the baptized in a privileged way “by the reception of the sacraments, prayer and thanksgiving, the witness of a holy life, and self-denial and active charity.”

We are not allowed to have a self. The self is evil.

 

[davidv]

OK, so Christ’s words are not good enough for you.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

So far so good! I’m there.

Agreed.

Did God promise to heal our sufferings here on this 3rd rock from the sun? No.
Did God promise to say yes to every single prayer request we give Him? No.

Unfortunately, Christ and His Church disagrees with you.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

CCC 591 But such an act of faith must go through a mysterious death to self, for a new “birth from above” under the influence of divine grace.

CCC 1814 By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.”

1657 It is here that the father of the family, the mother, children, and all members of the family exercise the priesthood of the baptized in a privileged way “by the reception of the sacraments, prayer and thanksgiving, the witness of a holy life, and self-denial and active charity.”

We are not allowed to have a self. The self is evil.

Why do you equate deny with give up? They have very different meanings to me.

 

[BobCatholic]

Why do you equate deny with give up? They have very different meanings to me.

Then please show me where they do have different meanings.

Use scripture and Catechism or other Church documents.

 

[davidv]

Then please show me where they do have different meanings.

Use scripture and Catechism or other Church documents.

Here are some quotes from the CCC that are my basis for why “deny yourself” applies only to our sinful desires and not our complete self.

943 By virtue of their kingly mission, lay people have the power to uproot the rule of sin within themselves and in the world, by their self-denial and holiness of life (cf. *LG *36).

768 So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit "bestows upon [the Church] varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her."177 "Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom."178

One cannot be charitable without a self to give of, or humble without a self to be humble about.

 

[BobCatholic]

Here are some quotes from the CCC that are my basis for why “deny yourself” applies only to our sinful desires and not our complete self.

It does not define what “self-denial” means.

You can’t deny something while keeping a portion of it, it must be gone completely.

Let me reason like this:
Can I deny that abortion is good? Yes. It is an intrinsic evil. Can I keep a portion of my denial that abortion is good? No. That says that there is some scenario that abortion is good.

Even your argument about “denying sinful desires” says they all must be denied, without exception. Can I keep some sinful desires? Of course not.

So the same thing about denying oneself. The self is evil and must be fully denied.

“One cannot be charitable without a self to give of, or humble without a self to be humble about.”

And one cannot keep the self, the self is evil.

 

[davidv]

It does not define what “self-denial” means.

You can’t deny something while keeping a portion of it, it must be gone completely.

Let me reason like this:
Can I deny that abortion is good? Yes. It is an intrinsic evil. Can I keep a portion of my denial that abortion is good? No. That says that there is some scenario that abortion is good.

Even your argument about “denying sinful desires” says they all must be denied, without exception. Can I keep some sinful desires? Of course not.

So the same thing about denying oneself. The self is evil and must be fully denied.

“One cannot be charitable without a self to give of, or humble without a self to be humble about.”

And one cannot keep the self, the self is evil.

Are you going to attempt to understand what I write, or will you continue to twist it into something unrecognizable?

 

[BobCatholic]

Are you going to attempt to understand what I write, or will you continue to twist it into something unrecognizable?

It is the other way around.

I asked you for something that defines what self-denial is. You didn’t give me any answer.

I can’t twist something not given to me.

However, you did try to provide an interpretation not supported by the text. That qualifies as “twisting.”

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I asked you for something that defines what self-denial is. . .

You weren’t asking me, but I, myself, would say that self-denial is another term for sacrifice.
Sacrifice not in the service of love, is a useless, if not negative activity.
One denies oneself a lesser, in favor of a greater good.
One may give up one’s time to study, work and make money, gain honor, power, greater pleasure.
One may give it all up to one’s neighbour and to follow God.
Self-denial does not mean a denial of self, as the term is usually understood signifying the spiritual-material totality that is “me”.

 

[BobCatholic]

Self-denial does not mean a denial of self,

A contradiction.

One cannot sacrifice the self while still keeping the self. That means no sacrifice was done.

 

[davidv]

A contradiction.

One cannot sacrifice the self while still keeping the self. That means no sacrifice was done.

If self-denial means sacrifice of the self, this would be true. However, self-denial does not mean sacrifice of the self.

Self-denial means sacrificing our sinful desires.

 

[Aloysium]

A contradiction.

One cannot sacrifice the self while still keeping the self. That means no sacrifice was done.

That is your personal definition and is not how the term “self-denial” is generally understood - as a denying of oneself certain wants that are of a lesser good or are sinful.
The self (the totality that is me) is a reality created by God and is good. To deny one’s self is to engage in unreality. How can one love others if one does not love oneself?

 

[BobCatholic]

If self-denial means sacrifice of the self, this would be true. However, self-denial does not mean sacrifice of the self.

Self-denial means sacrificing our sinful desires.

So basically the self is nothing but sinful desires. The self truly is evil.

That is your personal definition and is not how the term “self-denial” is generally understood - as a denying of oneself certain wants that are of a lesser good or are sinful.

How is giving up a good that is guaranteed (I already have it now) for a greater good that is not guaranteed (I don’t have it and there is no guarantee I’ll have it)?

This sounds like gambling.

The self (the totality that is me) is a reality created by God and is good.

If it was, why do I have to give it up if it is good?

To deny one’s self is to engage in unreality.

So Jesus says to engage in unreality?

 

[Aloysium]

So basically the self is nothing but sinful desires. The self truly is evil. . . How is giving up a good that is guaranteed (I already have it now) for a greater good that is not guaranteed (I don’t have it and there is no guarantee I’ll have it)? . . .This sounds like gambling. . . If it was, why do I have to give it up if it is good? . . . So Jesus says to engage in unreality?

Jesus never said to deny one’s self in the sense that one is to deny the very thing that is oneself.
Who is be resurrected as a glorified body?
One gives of oneself; destroy that self, there is nothing to give.

Many of us sacrifice much in order to raise our families;
priests sacrifice all this to serve the Church.
What guarantees do any of us have?
No gambling is involved because it is about love.
We strive to do God’s will as best as we can discern.

I am trying to understand what you are trying to communicate.
I figure, your definition of self is not the reality of the spiritual-psychosomatic unity that constitutes an individual human being, but merely that aspect of the totality of oneself called sin.

Bottom line of what I am trying to communicate: Self-hate is a form of narcissism, pride.

 

[BobCatholic]

Bottom line of what I am trying to communicate: Self-hate is a form of narcissism, pride.

So how do I do it?

How can I give of myself without the gamble?

I don’t know if God wants me, he won’t talk to me. Matthew 7:22-23 is scary!!!