Does God "TEST" us....?

[ajecphotos]

Living is one big test. God doesn’t need to test us individually. He wants us to succeed. To turn to him when life is testing. God is mercy and love.

 

[BobCatholic]

No. You said that. It was your assumption that we should be returned to the Garden. I just played off that assumption and upped the ante to heaven (which is our true destination).

It was not my “assumption”. If someone came and bailed us out of jail, and paid the bail, we would not be sitting in the jail cell.

If Adam and Eve’s sin got them kicked out of the Garden of Eden, why are we also outside of the Garden of Eden? We are being punished for their sins.

In effect, they committed the crime and we serve the time. We are in the same jail cell as the original prisoners.

When you upped the ante, it was to avoid answering the question: Why are we held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve?

Really? Citation please.

I never said they did, it was you who implied it.

None required. My words were misinterpreted.

Actually, my words were misinterpreted.

When were you personally kicked out of the garden?

I have no idea.

So where is it so I can get back to it?

So have it your way. The key question is will you follow Jesus to a place better than the garden.

This is not my way. I don’t have a choice in the matter.

Yes, I’ll follow Jesus to a place better than the Garden, but I have no guarantee I will succeed in getting there. My concupiscence has not been healed.

 

[davidv]

It was not my “assumption”. If someone came and bailed us out of jail, and paid the bail, we would not be sitting in the jail cell.

If Adam and Eve’s sin got them kicked out of the Garden of Eden, why are we also outside of the Garden of Eden? We are being punished for their sins.

In effect, they committed the crime and we serve the time. We are in the same jail cell as the original prisoners.

When you upped the ante, it was to avoid answering the question: Why are we held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve?

I never said they did, it was you who implied it.

Actually, my words were misinterpreted.

I have no idea.

So where is it so I can get back to it?

This is not my way. I don’t have a choice in the matter.

Yes, I’ll follow Jesus to a place better than the Garden, but I have no guarantee I will succeed in getting there. My concupiscence has not been healed.

So what? Concupiscence won’t keep you from heaven.

 

[BobCatholic]

So what? Concupiscence won’t keep you from heaven.

Oh really?

Concupiscence causes people to sin more.
More sin won’t keep one from going to heaven?
I do not suffer with a smile on my face, and that is a sin.

Look, I get it. It is a heavy thing to struggle with, the idea we are held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sins. I can’t figure it out, nor have I found any answers against it. So if you cannot answer it or refute it, that’s OK, I can’t expect anyone but God to help me with this. I can’t do it myself. All I can do is wait for my rescuer (Jesus Christ) to help me. I pray (which is only a monologue, since He won’t talk to me).

This is either one of two things.

1. The devil is doing a number on me, and I am helpless against it.
2. I have an unusual Dark Night of the Senses. The Dark Night is a withdrawal of consolations from God, but…I don’t recall the last time I got consolations. I read the lives of the saints and they got wonderful consolations. They KNEW they were with Jesus, even when they were going through Dark Nights. I am jealous of them, and have tears in my eyes because God won’t do things like that for me.

I don’t believe anyone can help me to understand except for God. And He doesn’t want to talk to me so I’m pretty much screwed and hopeless.

One day I’d like to know Jesus Christ. As in actually have a personal relationship with him. And know who He really is.

Until then I only have a corporate relationship with Jesus Christ (I’m in the Church, I get the sacraments, that’s it.). And I only know only who I think he is (which is not the same as knowing who he really is).

 

[tonyrey]

**The words of Jesus are clear enough for a child to understand.

If His love overrules His justice He doesn’t punish us.

It does contradict the idea that we are required to have warm fuzzies from God, which is neither a Catholic nor Biblical teaching.

What do you mean by “warm fuzzies”?

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants

. Right, I said the same thing.

The Church teaches that we are not responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin. This is not imputed to us as a fault. I don’t disagree with this one iota.

I didn’t say that we have committed Adam and Eve’s sin, nor have I said that we are responsible for what they did.

I said we are being HELD temporally responsible.

Why do you qualify the word? Surely we’re either responsible or we’re not responsible.

human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".

None of which were healed. Romans 8:23.

We’re not responsible for an inclination. St Paul goes on to say:

In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don’t know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can’t be uttered. 8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit’s mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God. 8:28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 8:30 Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified.
8:31 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? ** 8:32 He who didn’t spare his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how would he not also with him freely give us all things? 8:33 Who could bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who justifies. 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Could oppression, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 8:36 Even as it is written, “For your sake we are killed all day long. We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”*** 8:37 No, in all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can be more positive than that…

 

[BobCatholic]

If His love overrules His justice He doesn’t punish us.

If God were as just as his love, we would not be held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin.

But since we are held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin, his love therefore must overrule his justice (since his justice is lower than his love).

That statement of yours says God’s justice = 0. I disagree, I say God’s Justice < his love.

What do you mean by “warm fuzzies”?

Emotional warmth, like when momma and daddy give you a hug when you’re a kid.

  Why do you qualify the word? Surely we're either responsible or we're not responsible.

I don’t say WE ARE responsible.

I am saying we are HELD responsible.

I have to qualify the word because everyone keeps putting words in my mouth. You and others keep on misrepresenting what I’m saying then knocking down the misrepresentation, and never addressing what I actually say.

I made the distinction in post#61:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12851780&postcount=61

We’re not responsible for an inclination.

Right, so why are we not back in the Garden of Eden? One question that cannot be answered.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . why are we not back in the Garden of Eden? One question that cannot be answered.

:twocents:

It may have to do with how we exist ontologically as persons.

As individuals in relation to one another,
we are one humanity,
one church in relation to God.

In one man, Adam, we fell;
in one man, who is God,
we are saved and redeemed.

As Jesus is the one true Vine,
into whose likeness we become through acts of love,
Adam is that choice of making ourselves gods,
excluding the one true God.

There is no going back to the harmony of loving communion within creation that was the Garden.
God, has made possible something so far greater - sonship, sharing in the Love that is the Trinity.

 

[BobCatholic]

In one man, Adam, we fell;
in one man, who is God,
we are saved and redeemed.

I agree with this unfortunately, reality is different in the temporal sphere.

Adam fell, we are temporally held responsible.
Jesus rose, we are saved and redeemed. YAY! But that is delayed and withheld (Romans 8:23) So we are still here, outside of the Garden.

Somehow the latter didn’t undo completely the former. At least not yet.

So “we are one humanity” is a one-way street in the temporal sphere.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Adam fell, we are temporally held responsible.
Jesus rose, we are saved and redeemed. . .

I don’t understand the significance you place on the word “temporally”.
Also, others have commented that we are not held responsible.

:twocents:

When we had it all we snubbed God.

People still do that here now,
but it sounds rather delusional
not to see how we are mere creatures,
dependent, ignorant, battered by our passions,
desperately in need of God’s love and graces.

Yes we should rejoice;
the incarnation of the Word has not only revealed God’s love for us,
paid the price for our sins,
and conquered death, but
has shown us the Way to becoming truly loving beings.

 

[BobCatholic]

I don’t understand the significance you place on the word “temporally”.

Because we are here, not in the Garden of Eden.
We suffer. In the Garden we wouldn’t have to.
Here we have tons of rules. There was only one rule.

So yeah, I put a LOT of significance to that!

Also, others have commented that we are not held responsible.

Then why are we not in the Garden of Eden? We have the same penalty imposed on us that Adam and Eve had. We pay the same price as they do!

We ARE being HELD temporally responsible!

When we had it all we snubbed God.

Yeah, Adam and Eve were stupid and need a boot to the head.

 

[tonyrey]

If His love overrules His justice He doesn’t punish us.
If God were as just as his love, we would not be held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin.

Emotional warmth, like when momma and daddy give you a hug when you’re a kid.The love of Jesus for us on the Cross is far greater than any human emotion.

Why do you qualify the word? Surely we’re either responsible or we’re not responsible.

I don’t say WE ARE responsible.

I am saying we are HELD responsible.

I have to qualify the word because everyone keeps putting words in my mouth. You and others keep on misrepresenting what I’m saying then knocking down the misrepresentation, and never addressing what I actually say.

I made the distinction in post#61:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…0&postcount=61

Right, so why are we not back in the Garden of Eden? One question that cannot be answered.
It is absurd to think we are **held **responsible for sins we haven’t committed and it is a distortion of Catholic teaching. We are not in the Garden of Eden for the simple reason that we have all failed to love our brothers and sisters throughout the world. We have all sinned in one way or another by not caring for those who need our help and prayers. The bloodstained history of the human race is incontrovertible evidence that we need redemption before we are fit to be in paradise. Not only are we afflicted by our moral environment we are also individually responsible for sins of omission which are far greater than sins we have committed. Even in the Garden of Eden there was pain and suffering before Adam sinned:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.

[/QUOTE]

 

[BobCatholic]

BobCatholic;12860551:

To fragment God is illogical

I agree, I’m not fragmenting God. God is One.

Divine mercy and justice are reconciled in a simple prayer no one could have invented or imagined:

“Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us…”

That’s spiritual, not temporal. If this were applicable to temporal things, we could be temporally forgiven, and allowed back into the Garden of Eden.

The love of Jesus for us on the Cross is far greater than any human emotion.

I agree.

But God has no emotions. God does not care about warm fuzzies.

It is absurd to think we are **held **

responsible for sins we haven’t committed and it is a distortion of Catholic teaching.

Incorrect. I never said that.

Catholic Teaching is that we are not responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin. I agree!

But since we are not in the Garden of Eden, we are paying the same penalty as Adam and Eve, yet we did not commit their sin. We are HELD TEMPORALLY responsible.

Again, you misword what I say, then knock down the strawman.

We are not in the Garden of Eden for the simple reason that we have all failed to love our brothers and sisters throughout the world.

Please show me where it says in scripture, tradition, magisterial documents, etc.

If we did these things, will we be allowed back in the Garden of Eden? The answer is no.

You appear to be saying we can re-create the Garden of Eden if only we just do certain things. We can ‘create heaven on earth’ - I’m sure we’ve seen lots of Marxist people trying that and we all know how that turned out.

So I disagree with your reasoning.

I want to live in the Garden of Eden. One rule. VERY easy to follow! I promise to never touch that forbidden tree! Never having to worry, and being able to talk to God on a daily basis? How awesome would that be!

But alas, that will not happen here on this planet. We are temporally held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

It is absurd to think we are **held **responsible for sins we haven’t committed and it is a distortion of Catholic teaching. We are not in the Garden of Eden for the simple reason that we have all failed to love our brothers and sisters throughout the world. We have all sinned in one way or another by not caring for those who need our help and prayers. The bloodstained history of the human race is incontrovertible evidence that we need redemption before we are fit to be in paradise. Not only are we afflicted by our moral environment we are also individually responsible for sins of omission which are far greater than sins we have committed.

So we don’t really need infant baptism, right? Or are infants guilty of not caring for people enough?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . VERY easy to follow! I promise to never touch that forbidden tree! Never having to worry, and being able to talk to God on a daily basis? How awesome would that be!. . .

It is important to accept and with thanks,
all that God has bestowed upon us,
trusting that He knows what is best.

To make promises, that one could never keep,
like St Peter before the dawn,
is a part of making ourselves into gods,
which is what eating of the forbidden fruit entailed.

God always walks with us and His love is all we need.

Eden was no less awesome than it is to be here, now.

 

[BobCatholic]

It is important to accept and with thanks,
all that God has bestowed upon us,
trusting that He knows what is best.

God knows best when it comes to the end. I’m wondering why the middle is so hard.

To make promises, that one could never keep,
like St Peter before the dawn,
is a part of making ourselves into gods,
which is what eating of the forbidden fruit entailed.

This is a promise I can’t keep because God won’t let me. He won’t let me in the Garden of Eden.
Peter couldn’t keep his promise because he was doing it on his own power.

Eden was no less awesome than it is to be here, now.

Eden is far better.
One rule. Paradise. You get to have a conversation with God regularly.

Here:
Tons of rules. Horrible. The best I can do is a monologue, not a conversation with God.

 

[Aloysium]

There are just two basic rules, which have one foundation - Love.

Scrupulosity is a religious form of obsessive-compulsive disorder, a cross some people bear, consisting of anxiety and guilt related to the breaking of rules.
It is important to stay focussed on what Jesus actually said and to act accordingly.

Matt 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

Forget the Garden of Eden.
In what is, is where we find God.
Yearning for what was can only result in misery,
given that it implies a nonacceptance of what is.

 

[BobCatholic]

There are just two basic rules, which have one foundation - Love.

How is love defined? Unselfishness only.

Answer: the self is evil. One is not permitted in any way or shape, to do what the self wants. Do only what God wants, nothing else.

Since I have a self, I am therefore selfish, and therefore evil.

Scrupulosity is a religious form of obsessive-compulsive disorder, a cross some people bear, consisting of anxiety and guilt related to the breaking of rules.
It is important to stay focussed on what Jesus actually said and to act accordingly.

The issue is not scrupulosity, the issue is I am not perfect, and do not know what God’s will is. He won’t talk to me. Prayer is a monologue.

I also do not have a personal relationship with God, only a corporate one. I’m worried that no matter how much I suffer or try to seek out God, I’ll hear those dreaded words “Go away you evildoer, I never knew you.”

Forget the Garden of Eden.
In what is, is where we find God.
Yearning for what was can only result in misery,
given that it implies a nonacceptance of what is.

I know, the Garden of Eden is not possible, it is in the past. We are temporally held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. Nothing I can do about that.

 

[tonyrey]

So we don’t really need infant baptism, right? Or are infants guilty of not caring for people enough?

Baptism is not absolutely essential for salvation but infants are baptised and brought up as members of the spiritual Body of Christ until they reach the age of reason and can decide for themselves whether to be confirmed.

Infants are not guilty because they are not responsible for their behaviour.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Baptism is not absolutely essential for salvation but infants are baptised and brought up as members of the spiritual Body of Christ until they reach the age of reason and can decide for themselves whether to be confirmed.

Infants are not guilty because they are not responsible for their behaviour.

I thought the Church doesn’t really know, but there is a concept of infant limbo.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=10162

 

[tonyrey]

That’s spiritual, not temporal. If this were applicable to temporal things, we could be temporally forgiven, and allowed back into the Garden of Eden.

The Garden of Eden no longer exists.

But since we are not in the Garden of Eden, we are paying the same penalty as Adam and Eve, yet we did not commit their sin. We are HELD TEMPORALLY responsible.

We are the victims of our ancestors’ sins and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for what they have done because we didn’t even exist.

You appear to be saying we can re-create the Garden of Eden if only we just do certain things. We can ‘create heaven on earth’ - I’m sure we’ve seen lots of Marxist people trying that and we all know how that turned out.
I want to live in the Garden of Eden. One rule. VERY easy to follow! I promise to never touch that forbidden tree! Never having to worry, and being able to talk to God on a daily basis? How awesome would that be!

But alas, that will not happen here on this planet.

Indeed, the Garden of Eden no longer exists.