Does God "TEST" us....?

[BobCatholic]

Sounds like you are using a different meaning of “responsible” than most use. What is your definition of responsible?

I agree. To say we are responsible for Adam and Eve’s sins is backwards.

Pay attention.
I did not say WE ARE responsible.

I said we are HELD TEMPORALLY RESPONSIBLE by God.

Not spiritually. Jesus took care of the latter. We are not held spiritually responsible.

We are held temporally responsible by God. He has given us the same punishment and penalty as He did to Adam and Eve.

However Jesus was the ransom for Adam’s curse to mankind.

However, we are not redeemed yet. We are waiting for our redemption and our adoption as sons/daughters. (Romans 8:23) - This indicates we have not gotten it yet.
If we already got it, why are we waiting for it?

By sacrificing his perfect life in flawless obedience to God, Jesus paid the price for Adam’s sin.

Jesus paid the spiritual price. That was infinite.

He didn’t pay the temporal price. You notice the gates of the Garden of Eden haven’t opened up and we are now having daily flights on El Air to the Garden of Eden.

Let me give you two examples.

Example#1:
You get a letter from the city. It is a parking ticket. Apparently you parked illegally in front of a fire hydrant. You look at the license plate and make/model of the car and recognize it as your neighbor’s car. You go to the hearing and plead your case, bringing evidence like your car’s registration. The judge refuses to accept your defense and fines you $100.

Now, you are not responsible for the parking fine, but you are HELD responsible for someone else’s action.

Example#2
You are in the army. You are sleeping in the barracks. At 2AM one of the other soldiers in your platoon was caught sneaking out of the barracks without permission. The drill sergeant wakes you and everyone else up and orders everyone (including the sneaker) to do 20 push ups.

Now, are you responsible for the sneaker’s actions? No. But you are being HELD responsible.

In the same way, we are being HELD temporally responsible.

Now, given the fact we are not in the Garden of Eden (and the rest of the punishments God inflicted on Adam and Eve are also being inflicted on us) - we are paying the TEMPORAL price.

 

[davidv]

Pay attention.

Kindly refrain this kind of condescension.

I did not say WE ARE responsible.

I said we are HELD TEMPORALLY RESPONSIBLE by God.

Sounds like a contradiction to me. Either we are responsible for the sin or we are not.

Not spiritually. Jesus took care of the latter. We are not held spiritually responsible.

We are held temporally responsible by God. He has given us the same punishment and penalty as He did to Adam and Eve.

No, our current condition is not punishment. It is the natural consequence of the original personal sin.

However, we are not redeemed yet. We are waiting for our redemption and our adoption as sons/daughters. (Romans 8:23) - This indicates we have not gotten it yet.
If we already got it, why are we waiting for it?

Jesus paid the spiritual price. That was infinite.

He didn’t pay the temporal price. You notice the gates of the Garden of Eden haven’t opened up and we are now having daily flights on El Air to the Garden of Eden.

Let me give you two examples.

Example#1:
You get a letter from the city. It is a parking ticket. Apparently you parked illegally in front of a fire hydrant. You look at the license plate and make/model of the car and recognize it as your neighbor’s car. You go to the hearing and plead your case, bringing evidence like your car’s registration. The judge refuses to accept your defense and fines you $100.

Now, you are not responsible for the parking fine, but you are HELD responsible for someone else’s action.

Example#2
You are in the army. You are sleeping in the barracks. At 2AM one of the other soldiers in your platoon was caught sneaking out of the barracks without permission. The drill sergeant wakes you and everyone else up and orders everyone (including the sneaker) to do 20 push ups.

Now, are you responsible for the sneaker’s actions? No. But you are being HELD responsible.

In the same way, we are being HELD temporally responsible.

Now, given the fact we are not in the Garden of Eden (and the rest of the punishments God inflicted on Adam and Eve are also being inflicted on us) - we are paying the TEMPORAL price.

I have no idea how these are apt analogies for our lives. Both involve injustice. God is perfectly just. So our condition, at least with respect to God, is perfectly just. The innocent have always suffered at the hands of the sinner. This is a necessary condition if we are to freely to choose God’s way over our way.

 

[rinnie]

So they were sadists.

Spiritually, this is true.
Temporally, we are yet to be. (Romans 8:23)
You do notice we are not in the Garden of Eden?

Yes, Jesus took care of the Spiritual part of that. Temporally, we’re still outside of the Garden of Eden.

I don’t.

I ask why we’re held temporally responsible for their sins.
I ask why we’re held temporally responsible for the sins of others.

We are not held temporally for our sins, we are held permanently unless we confess, repent and quit the sin.

We are never held responsible for the sins of others, where in the world are you getting this, certainly not from Catholic teaching.

Yes we are not in the garden of eden, this is the world of sin, but if we remain faithful to Christ we will see him and enter into heaven when it is our time to reunite with him.

Are you sinless? Do you commit sin? Do you have free will to sin or not to sin? Unless you are sinless and commit no sin why would you feel you should be in the garden of eden?

When a person is in sin, this world is harder and harder to live in because they are out of the Grace with God.

When a person is out of sin, this world is easier to live in because you have the Grace of God to carry you through it.

 

[BobCatholic]

Kindly refrain this kind of condescension.

Kindly refrain from misinterpreting or miswording what I’m saying

Sounds like a contradiction to me. Either we are responsible for the sin or we are not.

I am not talking about whether we are responsible or not. That is irrelevant.

I am talking about that we are HELD responsible.

We didn’t do the crime, but we are doing the crime.

You take what I say and twist the words. Kindly refrain from misinterpreting or miswording what I’m saying

Address what I say, not what you think I say.

No, our current condition is not punishment.

How is that? I’m being treated exactly the same as the guy who did the wrong deed. I get the same exact penalty. I’m held responsible for someone else’s action.

I have no idea how these are apt analogies for our lives. Both involve injustice. God is perfectly just.

Then explain why God didn’t say “OK, Jesus came, gates of Garden of Eden are open, repent,confess, do penance, then come on in!”

So our condition, at least with respect to God, is perfectly just.

Spiritually, yes. Temporally, I don’t know.

The innocent have always suffered at the hands of the sinner. This is a necessary condition if we are to freely to choose God’s way over our way.

And I thought Jesus took care of that.

We are not held temporally for our sins,

So you say. The fact we are not in the Garden of Eden says otherwise. It is a clear.

we are held permanently unless we confess, repent and quit the sin.

OK, so if I repent and confess Adam and Eve’s sin, can I go to the Garden of Eden?
How do I quit the sin of someone else?

We are never held responsible for the sins of others, where in the world are you getting this, certainly not from Catholic teaching.

I get it from the fact we don’t live in the Garden of Eden. We are given the same penalty as Adam and Eve. Thus we are held responsible for their sin (despite the inconvenient fact that we are NOT responsible for their actions!)

The Catholic faith does not talk about (nor does any other faith) why we cannot be in the Garden of Eden during our sojourn on earth, nor why we are held temporally responsible.

Are you sinless? Do you commit sin? Do you have free will to sin or not to sin? Unless you are sinless and commit no sin why would you feel you should be in the garden of eden?

If I were in the Garden of Eden why on earth would I want to sin? I know I’d be kicked out. I’d repent, confess, do penance, then go into the Garden and never sin again, since in the garden my concupiscence is healed and I don’t want to sin.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

If I were in the Garden of Eden why on earth would I want to sin? I know I’d be kicked out. I’d repent, confess, do penance, then go into the Garden and never sin again, since in the garden my concupiscence is healed and I don’t want to sin.

What makes you so sure. Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, why wouldn’t you?

Also, you need to make an effort with your lust, (I assume this what you mean by concupiscence.) Stop looking at porn, if you are, and think about how this deadly sin is keeping you apart from God and the kingdom of heaven. In some ways we are still living in the garden of eden, if you will open your mind and heart. (For the kingdom of heaven is spread across the world, but men do no see it.) Quit blaming God or Adam and Eve and start working on your problem.

 

[BobCatholic]

What makes you so sure. Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, why wouldn’t you?

Because I learned from their mistake and promise never ever ever to touch that tree.
I"d be in a location where there is no suffering, no pain. And I’ll be glad to stomp on any snakes in the Garden.

One commandment. God made it very easy, so easy even a weak, idiot like me can do it, and that’s because God made it possible (not because of me)

Also, you need to make an effort with your lust, (I assume this what you mean by concupiscence.)

Wrong assumption. Professor Benny Hill has a lesson for you

Stop looking at porn,

This is not the sin I’m struggling with. Thanks to God’s grace I conquered this ages ago.

[Quit blaming God or Adam and Eve and start working on your problem.

The sin I have is that I cannot suffer with a big juicy smile on my face as we are required to do so. So how do I work on that when I don’t have that ability?

If I were in the Garden of Eden, I would never suffer, and thus I could be able to please God by being joyful.
[/quote]

 

[tonyrey]

We are not being punished

**.
[/quote]

False.

God punished Adam and Eve because of their sins, and the punishment was banishment from the Garden of Eden.

We have that same punishment enforced on us.

If God did not mean to punish us as well, He could have said to Adam and Eve “OK, as soon as your kids are born, take them to the Garden of Eden and I’ll let them in.”

God did not do that. Why?
Your notion is clearly false because it is** a direct contradiction of the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father**.

 We are the victims of the sins of our ancestors because we are not  isolated individuals but members of the human family who are deeply  affected by the way others behave.

What I see here is a one way street.

OK, we are members of the human family, so as a result, we are required to have bad things happen to us. Suffering. Pain. Horrible things. No good things allowed.

HOWEVER - We’re also supposed to be adopted children of God, and as such, we are to be provided for. We are in the family of God. So does this change anything in a temporal way?

The reality is that on earth: We have the obligations (bad things happen), but not the benefits (healing, temporal blessings, etc.).

Sheer nonsense! “No good things allowed” is a gross distortion of the truth.

It is** a direct contradiction of the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father**

 

[tonyrey]

Then how do I get God to talk to me so he can tell me his will?
I want prayer to be a conversation, not a monologue.

The words of Jesus are clear enough for a child to understand. To expect a private revelation just for your benefit amounts to regarding God as a slot machine:

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” 39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41

Matthew 12:38-40

 

[BobCatholic]

Your notion is clearly false because it is** a direct contradiction of the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father**.

Then where is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

He wouldn’t dare put us in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve, right?

 We are the victims of the sins of our ancestors because we are not  isolated individuals but members of the human family who are deeply  affected by the way others behave.

But only one way.

Adam and Eve sin, game over, we get kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
Jesus and Mary undo that, and we are still not let back in to the Garden of Eden.

Sheer nonsense! “No good things allowed” is a gross distortion of the truth.

OK, no PLEASANT things allowed then.

 

[BobCatholic]

The words of Jesus are clear enough for a child to understand. To expect a private revelation just for your benefit amounts to regarding God as a slot machine:

Matthew 12:38-40

So all prayer must be a monologue.
A personal relationship with God means no communication from him whatsoever.
We are to stumble around in the dark. No help. Just guessing which way to go next.

If my wife is angry at me, I get the silent treatment.
When God gives me the silent treatment…well, the conclusion is clear. He is angry at me and does not want me.

 

[tonyrey]

So all prayer must be a monologue.
A personal relationship with God means no communication from him whatsoever.
We are to stumble around in the dark. No help. Just guessing which way to go next.

If my wife is angry at me, I get the silent treatment.
When God gives me the silent treatment…well, the conclusion is clear. He is angry at me and does not want me.

The very fact that you condemn God shows you believe there is a difference between good and evil. How did you obtain that knowledge?

 

[tonyrey]

Then where is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

He wouldn’t dare put us in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve, right?

But only one way.

Adam and Eve sin, game over, we get kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
Jesus and Mary undo that, and we are still not let back in to the Garden of Eden.

OK, no PLEASANT things allowed then.

People often accuse others of their own defects: in this case ignoring the other person…

 

[tonyrey]

Then where is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

He wouldn’t dare put us in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve, right?

But only one way.

Adam and Eve sin, game over, we get kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
Jesus and Mary undo that, and we are still not let back in to the Garden of Eden.

OK, no PLEASANT things allowed then.

People often accuse others of their own defects: in this case taking no notice of the other person. It’s like trying to reason with thin air…

 

[davidv]

Then where is the next flight to the Garden of Eden?

At your death. It is up to you in this life to acquire and retain a boarding pass.

He wouldn’t dare put us in the same jail cell as Adam and Eve, right?

Wrong. God puts no one in a jail cell.

But only one way.

Adam and Eve sin, game over, we get kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
Jesus and Mary undo that, and we are still not let back in to the Garden of Eden.

OK, no PLEASANT things allowed then.

 

[BobCatholic]

The very fact that you condemn God shows you believe there is a difference between good and evil. How did you obtain that knowledge?

OK, so you can’t answer my question.

When God is silent, that means he must be angry at me.

People often accuse others of their own defects: in this case ignoring the other person…

OK, so you can’t answer my question.

 

[wcknight]

Life is a training ground… we are children of God and as such have a lot to learn and overcome… we have to learn to make good choices… since we are not robots, we are given choices to do what is right or wrong and learn from our mistakes.

Through our adversities, and our mistakes, we can become better people. One of the toughest lessons is to learn how to admit that we are wrong, and learn that we need help. Some of our most natural tendencies is to be selfish, or prideful and it is in overcoming our natural tendencies that we can grow and learn what God wants us to learn. One of the biggest problems with atheists is that they believe they can live without God, that is exactly what Satan and the fallen angels thought. .

 

[BobCatholic]

At your death. It is up to you in this life to acquire and retain a boarding pass.

So you are saying is that the Garden of Eden was originally in heaven. Adam and Eve came down from Heaven just like Jesus.

Scripture or tradition citation please.

Wrong. God puts no one in a jail cell.

We are put in the same punishment, the same penalty as they do.

You don’t wan to call earth a jail cell, fine.
But we are also kicked out of the Garden of Eden, but we did not eat that fruit.
We are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.

 

[tonyrey]

OK, so you can’t answer my question.

When God is silent, that means he must be angry at me.

OK, so you can’t answer my question.

I have answered your questions but you have ignored my answers, e.g.

**The words of Jesus are clear enough for a child to understand.

It is a direct contradiction of the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father**.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".

 

[BobCatholic]

I have answered your questions but you have ignored my answers, e.g.

**The words of Jesus are clear enough for a child to understand.

It is a direct contradiction of the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father**.

It doesn’t contradict that God is loving. It does contradict the idea that God is just, because he punishes us (temporally) identically to those who actually did the crime. In fact, it proves that God is loving because the love overrules the justice. God’s love is greater than God’s justice.

It does contradict the idea that we are required to have warm fuzzies from God, which is neither a Catholic nor Biblical teaching.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

Right, I said the same thing.

The Church teaches that we are not responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin. This is not imputed to us as a fault. I don’t disagree with this one iota.

I didn’t say that we have committed Adam and Eve’s sin, nor have I said that we are responsible for what they did.

I said we are being HELD temporally responsible.

You accuse me of ignoring what you said yet you do the exact same thing, you don’t read what I said.

human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".

None of which were healed. Romans 8:23.

 

[davidv]

So you are saying is that the Garden of Eden was originally in heaven.

No. You said that. It was your assumption that we should be returned to the Garden. I just played off that assumption and upped the ante to heaven (which is our true destination).

Adam and Eve came down from Heaven just like Jesus.

Really? Citation please.

Scripture or tradition citation please.

None required. My words were misinterpreted.

We are put in the same punishment, the same penalty as they do.

You don’t wan to call earth a jail cell, fine.
But we are also kicked out of the Garden of Eden,

When were you personally kicked out of the garden?

but we did not eat that fruit.
We are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.

So have it your way. The key question is will you follow Jesus to a place better than the garden.