Does Hell Exist? Pope Francis Says No (Warning: This title is misleading)

[BlackFriar]

By definition having our buttons pushed means we don’t personally realise it.
If we did we wouldn’t publicly react and give 94 yr olds and manipulative news sources further credibility.

 

[Luke6_37]

It is heresy, plain and simple, to say that a soul cannot maintain its existence if it is eternally separated from God.

Nothing can cause a soul to cease existing.

Not even the person who created the soul and sustains it’s existence?

God of course can destroy a soul - or simple cease to hold it in existence.

Matthew 10:28 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

I’m not saying for certain that is what happens, only that it can happen.

 

[FirstFiveEighth]

Seems like circular logic to me but whatever you say bro. Thread /over

 

[BlackFriar]

Seems like circular logic to me but whatever you say bro. Thread /over

As I don’t know you I am not your “bro” … nor would I move in circles where that appellation would ever be appropriate - be it amongst black Americans in LA or Polynesians in Otara New Zealand.

 

[KMG]

Your bible quoting is a good example of how the Church wasn’t entirely wrong to have issues with lay people reading the bible.

In any case, the soul is indestructible and immortal, and damned souls aren’t “annihilated.” This is a matter of dogma.

 

[Luke6_37]

Your bible quoting is a good example of how the Church wasn’t entirely wrong to have issues with lay people reading the bible.

In any case, the soul is indestructible and immortal, and damned souls aren’t “annihilated.” This is a matter of dogma.

There is no dogma regarding the indestructibility of the human soul - there can’t be, because Sacred Scripture clearly states otherwise, as I have pointed out.

Nor is there any dogma regarding the nature of the punishment received by souls in Hell, only that it lasts eternally. What you are suggesting, that dogma stating that the punishing itself lasts forever has not been declared to be revealed.

Punishment is a noun. Punishing is a verb. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Here are the only two dogmatically defined doctrines on the fate of the damned:

1. The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell.
2. The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity.

http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2015/09/19/a-list-of-the-dogmas-of-the-catholic-church/

This leaves open a great deal of doctrine to work with and examine. That’s what theologians do. The book by von Balthasar that I cited is a good example. He does not address the nature of the ultimate fate of those who enter Hell, but instead makes a darn good case that we can hope that Hell is empty without being universalists.

 

[KMG]

Souls cannot be annihilated. Period.

 

[Agathon]

There is no dogma regarding the indestructibility of the human soul - there can’t be, because Sacred Scripture clearly states otherwise, as I have pointed out.

Really?

Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to fall into sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

There is no dogma regarding the indestructibility of the human soul - there can’t be, because Sacred Scripture clearly states otherwise, as I have pointed out.

Really?

Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to fall into sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’

The worm and the fire are not human souls.

 

[Agathon]

The worm and the fire are not human souls.

The fact that the fire doesn’t quench means eternal punishment. You can’t get around that.

Matthew 25 seals the deal.

Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Luke6_37]

Souls cannot be annihilated. Period.

Is that your infallible pronouncement Pope KMG?

I am fully open to any solid argument you want to make regarding the commonly understood interpretation of Church doctrine that would rule out annihilation as the ultimate fate of the damned in Hell.

So far, nobody has been able to produce that. This doesn’t mean what you believe is incorrect, it just means you are lousy at apologetics.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

The worm and the fire are not human souls.

The fact that the fire doesn’t quench means eternal punishment. You can’t get around that.

Matthew 25 seals the deal.

Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’ 46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The fire that doesn’t quench means it entirely consumes everything it burns before going out. You can’t put it out in order to save something thrown into it. Whatever it burns, it burns utterly and absolutely.

Again, punishment in this passage is a noun, not a verb. The passage does not say eternal punishing. Annililation is an eternal punishment, because there is no coming back from it.

You can’t win this argument by quoting scripture. Greg Boyd, who is an Anabaptist, has examined every scriptural reference to the ultimate fate of the damned and can show how none of them support the doctine of Eternal Conscious Torment.

I wouldn’t say he is the last word on the topic. Von Balthasar makes a pretty good case to support the hope that Hell is empty. If so, this is all really just a moot point.

 

[Agathon]

Again, punishment in this passage is a noun, not a verb.

By that logic, eternal life isn’t really eternal since life is noun and not a verb.

 

[Agathon]

Von Balthasar makes a pretty good case to support the hope that Hell is empty. If so, this is all really just a moot point.

As some have stated, Von Balthasar’s theology is suspect.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

Again, punishment in this passage is a noun, not a verb.

By that logic, eternal life isn’t really eternal since life is noun and not a verb.

“Eternal Life” is a thing itself. It is the Divine Life of Christ that we receive a share of by being grafted onto him. Our life is mortal & ends. For us to continue in existence after death, we must be “plugged into” the never ending “Eternal Life” of Christ which animates us like electricity animates whatever dead appliance you plug into the wall.

With millennials, I use the metaphor of a cell phone that arrives with it’s battery fully charged that will eventually “die” if it is not plugged into the eternal charger.

 

[Agathon]

“Eternal Life” is a thing itself.

And “Eternal death” is a thing too.

“They will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)

God is Love. And that Love burns as well as heals.

 

[Imdaman]

KMG:

Souls cannot be annihilated. Period.

Is that your infallible pronouncement Pope KMG?

I am fully open to any solid argument you want to make regarding the commonly understood interpretation of Church doctrine that would rule out annihilation as the ultimate fate of the damned in Hell.

So far, nobody has been able to produce that. This doesn’t mean what you believe is incorrect, it just means you are lousy at apologetics.

So I guess you don’t believe the bible is the word of God! That kind of explains a lot.

Can you plase provide any proof that souls will be annihilated.

 

[pnewton]

By that logic, eternal life isn’t really eternal since life is noun and not a verb.

Therein is the rub. When eternal no longer means eternal, and what Jesus said no longer means what he said, dismissing the eternity of Hell sure seems impossible without dismissing the eternity of Heaven. I know the two are not the same, but they do have at least these two properties in common; Jesus taught their reality and their eternity.

What a sad thing for Easter to call to question eternal life.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

“Eternal Life” is a thing itself.

And “Eternal death” is a thing too.

“They will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)

God is Love. And that Love burns as well as heals.

Death is not a thing.

Death entered the world as a consequence of sin. God told Adam and Evil they would die if they ate the forbidden fruit. They threw away the gift of Eternal Life (which is a thing) that God had given them by believing they could be like God and sustain their lives without him. They were wrong.

The good God who created all things is NOT the author of death. Death is the loss of life, just like evil is the loss of good. Scripture is very clear about this:

Wisdom 1:13-15 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

The scripture you quoted speaks of a destruction that is done with absolute finality. Destruction is a past tense. It is done, over, completed. You are irreversibly cut off from the source of your existence.

It does not speak of an on going destroying. It does not say God will hold you in existence for all eternity so he can continually destroy your soul.

 

[Agathon]

The scripture you quoted speaks of a destruction that is done with absolute finality. Destruction is a past tense. It is done, over, completed. You are irreversibly cut off from the source of your existence.

“Everlasting destruction is done in an absolute finality.” I perceive you fail to understand what eternal means. And if death isn’t a thing, how come we’re commanded to choose life?