Does Hell Exist? Pope Francis Says No (Warning: This title is misleading)

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

The scripture you quoted speaks of a destruction that is done with absolute finality. Destruction is a past tense. It is done, over, completed. You are irreversibly cut off from the source of your existence.

Everlasting destruction is done in an absolute finality. And if death isn’t a thing, how come we’re commanded to choose life?

Because God created life. Life is good. Your mortal life is good, but it is finite. If you simply choose that you will eventually die, your body will decompose and you will cease to exist.

If you want to live forever, you must be grafted onto Christ, like a branch is grafted onto a vine, so you can share his Eternal Life. Your mortal life will still end, your mortal body will still decompose, BUT the Father will create a new immortal spiritual body for you at the Resurrection just like he did for Jesus.

Jesus is the First Fruit of the Resurrection. Mary may well be the second. There is good reason to believe this, but that is just speculation at the moment. The rest of us will likely pop in all at once on Judgement Day.

 

[Agathon]

My question was rhetorical. The point is, if there is an eternal life, there is an eternal death. And as I said, eternal means unending.

 

[Luke6_37]

My question was rhetorical. The point is, if there is an eternal life, there is an eternal death.

Then what is your definition of eternal death?

 

[Agathon]

The self inflicted pain that results from eternal separation from God.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

KMG:

Souls cannot be annihilated. Period.

Is that your infallible pronouncement Pope KMG?

I am fully open to any solid argument you want to make regarding the commonly understood interpretation of Church doctrine that would rule out annihilation as the ultimate fate of the damned in Hell.

So far, nobody has been able to produce that. This doesn’t mean what you believe is incorrect, it just means you are lousy at apologetics.

So I guess you don’t believe the bible is the word of God! That kind of explains a lot.

Can you plase provide any proof that souls will be annihilated.

Can you prove souls are not?

If you bothered to read this thread, you will have seen multiple scripture passages that could plainly be interpreted as indicating that the ultimate fate of the damned is the absolute destruction of their souls.

1. God keeps all created things in existence. (That is Catholic dogma)
2. God has the power to destroy both the body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28)
3. Jesus always compares the soul to an organic thing that when throw on the fire is utterly comsumed (Matthew 13:24-30)

Luke 3:17 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

So what’s your proof against this? I am waiting for something other than repeated assertions.

 

[Luke6_37]

The self inflicted pain that results from eternal separation from God.

What you just described is eternal suffering. You have to be alive to suffer. So if what you say is true, then everyone who experiences suffering is really dead. That kind of distorts the definition of death.

 

[Agathon]

Kinda like how annihilationism distorts the definition of eternal punishment?

 

[Agathon]

If you bothered to read this thread, you will have seen multiple scripture passages that could plainly be interpreted as indicating that the ultimate fate of the damned is the absolute destruction of their souls.

You could say the same for the reverse.

 

[Luke6_37]

Kinda like how annihilationism distorts the definition of eternal punishment?

You are arguing for eternal punishing, which is not what Scripture or Church dogma states.

I have already shown how having one’s soul annihilated is an eternal punishment, because it is irreversible.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

If you bothered to read this thread, you will have seen multiple scripture passages that could plainly be interpreted as indicating that the ultimate fate of the damned is the absolute destruction of their souls.

You could say the same for the reverse.

Only if you interpret scripture to fit your beliefs, rather than fitting your beliefs to what is plainly written in scripture.

 

[KMG]

Read the Catechism. End of story.

 

[Agathon]

I’ve shown you time and time again from Tradition and Scripture what eternal punishment means. You on the other hand seem to misunderstand simple grammar.

 

[Agathon]

I have already shown how having one’s soul annihilated is an eternal punishment, because it is irreversible.

Irreversible means unchangable. It doesn’t mean unending.

Revelations 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

I have already shown how having one’s soul annihilated is an eternal punishment, because it is irreversible.

Irreversible means unchangable. It doesn’t mean unending.

Revelations 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The devil, the beast and the false prophet are called the unholy trinity - none of them are human. So AGAIN this verse does NOT demonstrate your point.

Irreversible means there is no going back. What is done is final - for all eternity.

You do realize Revelation is a symbolic book. That means you cannot take anything it says literally. This applies to phrases like “forever & ever” as well as all the other crazy stuff going on in it. Decoding Revelation is a challenge even for the experts.

But if you want to play this game…

There is this verse:

Rev 21:8 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Note, when he speaks of HUMANS being thrown into the Lake of Fire, John makes NO mention of “forever & ever”, but only a second death.

Von Balthasar, JPII’s favorite theologian, doesn’t even think this verse about sinners being thrown into the fire reflects an actual reality, but only a possibility. The possibility that some souls will not be saved is real, so John must “see” what their ultimate fate would be like in order to warn us against it. However, we do not need to believe that this will actually happen, only that it could happen.

So I will end this discussion by expanding upon von Balthasar’s conclusion and say that just as we can hope that Hell is empty, we can also hope that the annihilation of the soul would have been the ultimate fate of the damned, if there are any who could not be saved. This is consistent with both the doctrine of eternal punishment in that it is final, and total separation from God, who sustains our existence.

I cannot be certain of this, but to me, it is a far more likely scenario than Eternal Conscious Punishment, which is inconsistent with a merciful God.

 

[Agathon]

The devil, the beast and the false prophet are called the unholy trinity - none of them are human. So AGAIN this verse does NOT demonstrate your point.

Ah, but it does. In heaven, everyone has eternal life regardless of whether they are human or angels. In hell, as Revelations 20:10 states, the reverse is true. And could you provide proof that the false prophet is not human? Hell is termed as eternal punishment, a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Daniel 12:2 also speaks on this:
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Agathon]

I cannot be certain of this, but to me, it is a far more likely scenario than Eternal Conscious Punishment, which is inconsistent with a merciful God.

And that’s the main issue: your conception of God doesn’t allow for eternal punishment because it’s, well your conception of Him. Why should any of us trust the philosophy of a person with limited knowledge on the subject of his Creator?

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

The devil, the beast and the false prophet are called the unholy trinity - none of them are human. So AGAIN this verse does NOT demonstrate your point.

Ah, but it does. In heaven, everyone has eternal life regardless of whether they are human or angels. In hell, as Revelations 20:10 states, the reverse is true. And could you provide proof that the false prophet is not human?

We don’t know enough about the nature of Angels to make such a claim.

The false prophet is the second beast from Rev 13: 11-16 Read the footnote on this passage…

Rev 16: 13-14 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[KMG]

This thread has degenerated into a Protestant, do-it-yourself bible quote interpretation thread.

The Catechism…whether the most recent volume, or Trent’s…is dogmatic on the subject of hell and the immortality of the soul. End of story.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

I cannot be certain of this, but to me, it is a far more likely scenario than Eternal Conscious Punishment, which is inconsistent with a merciful God.

And that’s the main issue: your conception of God doesn’t allow for eternal punishment because it’s, well your conception of Him. Why should any of us trust the philosophy of a person with limited knowledge on the subject of his Creator?

I’m not asking you to trust me. I seek the Truth for myself and so far, you have added nothing to it. You did not bring up a single point that I have not already considered or failed to answer.

Do you have some greater knowledge about God? If so you failed to demonstrate it - spectacularly. I am a far better apologist for the annihilationist interpretation than you are for the the small “t” traditional interpretation.

 

[Luke6_37]

This thread has degenerated into a Protestant, do-it-yourself bible quote interpretation thread.

The Catechism…whether the most recent volume, or Trent’s…is dogmatic on the subject of hell and the immortality of the soul. End of story.

Immortal can’t mean indestructible - unless you think Jesus was lying when he said God can destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna.

Matthew 10:28 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

There really isn’t any other way to interpret this verse than how it is plainly written.