Does Humanae Vitae spiritually kill most Catholic’s souls?

[Steven_Merten]

Some Catholics claim that it is by the power of the “Keys to the Kingdom” that the Pope makes birth control a mortal sin. I am not exactly sure how the “Keys to the Kingdom” which are used in anathema to damn someone’s soul to hell are also used to proclaim Church doctrine.

I am wondering your opinion on the Church making failure to believe in Real Presence in the Eucharist a mortal sin. The Church condemns with anathema those who do not believe in Real Presents. In essence, it looks like they are using the “Keys to the Kingdom” authority to damn those who do not believe in Real Presence, making it a mortal sin. Is this the same situation as when people tell me that Church leaders are using the “Keys to the Kingdom” to make birth control a mortal sin?

CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

Anathema
**

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him​

condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his **angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."

He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

CANON lI.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one denieth, that, in the venerable sacrament of the Eucharist, the whole Christ is contained under each [Page 83] species, and under every part of each species, when separated; let him be anathema.

​

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[legeorge]

It seems, Steven, as if you are really stuck on this “keys of the kingdom” thing. Since previous posters have repeatedly and very articulately responded to your initial post, I will not beat a dead horse, so to speak. But I was wondering if perhaps you would feel better if the Pope just came out and told a big lie? “Yes, everyone on earth will go to heaven. Do whatever you want, it doesn’t matter anyway.” Would that appease you? Why do you insist that the Pope is the one who decides what is a sin? Was there no sin before Jesus came to live amongst man and establish his Church? Why did he die then? Popes don’t decide what sin is, they just try to lead Christ’s people down the right path. If people don’t want to follow, that’s their decision. That’s the consequense of free will.
Furthermore, rejection of the Real Presence is a rejection of Jesus, plain and simple. It says right in the Bible, that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, so if you reject Him, you are condemning yourself whether the Church formally recognizes it or not!

 

[Lamb100]

Steven–I’m hoping and praying that we will begin to see more papal teachings at least mentioned from the pulpit, or handed out on the literature racks, perhaps in summarized form for ease of understanding. I found it frustrating coming into the Church expecting to see lots of stuff like we get from Catholic Answers, Ignatius Press and Scott Hahn…not!

To be fair, though, even as I say this, I realize that in our local college Catholic faith community, there are often brochures about moral issues–so they’re doing something right! Maybe as more young, orthodox Catholics come up, we will see more moral teaching–better homilies!–along with the compassionate teaching (which has to be there as well–thinking of the way it used to be when girls got abortions because they couldn’t face being labeled a “scarlet woman.” Actually, it’s probably still that way in many places today…).

His Peace!

 

[Steven_Merten]

legeorge:

It seems, Steven, as if you are really stuck on this “keys of the kingdom” thing. Since previous posters have repeatedly and very articulately responded to your initial post, I will not beat a dead horse, so to speak. But I was wondering if perhaps you would feel better if the Pope just came out and told a big lie? "Yes, everyone on earth will go to heaven. …

…Furthermore, rejection of the Real Presence is a rejection of Jesus, plain and simple. It says right in the Bible, that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, so if you reject Him, you are condemning yourself whether the Church formally recognizes it or not!

Hello legeorge,

I did not realize that if a previous poster says something then we know that that must be gospel truth.

One only has to read scriptures to know that St. Peter’s Successors have the power to have Jesus hold sins bound in heaven. We know that anyone Jesus holds bound to sin in heaven cannot go to heaven and suffers eternal death. Throwing Stones I understand Successors using such an eternal life deadly senture as anathema as a detterant against an individual to protect the flock. Some people say that Church leaders are useing the “Keys to the Kingdom” in anathema to lay down Church laws. Then I see that the Church does say, believe in Real Presence or suffer the concequences of burning in hell through anathema. I am putting what I hear and what I see on this forum so we can discuss it.

Jesus says in Mathew 25:31 that he will cast into hell those that do not feed and care for the poor. Yet I only hear Pope John Paul II tell the World Bank and Western Nations to forgive third world debt and care for the poor. Are they the ones with Jesus promise of eternal life who are commanded by Christ to feed the poor? I thought it was the Church who Christ gave His commands and promises to eternal life. I hear that Catholics on average pay 1% or less of their anual income to care for the poor. I have never heard Pope John Paul II reprimand Catholics that if they do not obey Jesus to feed the poor, tithe or the like, they will burn in hell. Please quote where the Pope has done so. I don’t think the Pope is out there echoeing Christ’s words on who burns in hell as you say he is.

I believe in Real Presence. I think all Protestant faiths do not. I read on another thread how a man who had not firmly decided on Real Presence was overwhealmed that the Catholic Church would throw down such harsh, “accept it” or “**we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his **angels”. The Pope has decided that some Protestant baptism will allow Protestants into heaven. Does not the Pope now have the obligation to make sure Protestants know that if they do not believe in Real Presence, “**we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his **angels”. If they do not and they don’t, should the Pope not abandon his worldly politics long enough to get the message out loud, clear and often to the Protestants who are, no doubt in the Pope’s mind, mostly all going to burn in hell for not believing in Real Presence? I doubt our politically correct ecumenical Pope is going to do such a thing. I would suspect the Pope is counting on and hoping for invincible ignorance for Protestants or he does not think failure to believe in Real Presence is as big of a deal as Church doctrine builds it up to be for the Protestants.

A majority of Catholics glorify Pope John Paul II. Yet if 70 to 90% of Catholics are going to burn in hell for disobeying Humanae Vitae, and he is off focussing on American politics rather than attending to a spritual disaster destroying the flock he is supposed to be sheparding, should he be glorified?

I am just here putting it all on the table so we can all look at it and discuss it.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Lamb100]

For those worried about Protestants going to hell for one reason or another, remember “invincible ignorance”! When I was a Protestant I didn’t know about the Real Presence. God in his mercy revealed his glory to me–the pearl of great price–the height, depth, width of his love–until this gift of faith, I was unable to see it, even though it was in plain view. Now it drives me nuts–makes me deeply sad–that most people don’t see this glorious truth! Studying religion in college, transubstantiation was in my mind just another theory of what happens in the Lord’s Supper. You know, sort of a primitive medieval holdover that was used to explain something that was of course symbolic only! It never entered my mind to think people *really believed *this literally, especially in the modern world. Everything was in my head, not my heart. This is how Protestants think. (I’m not talking about people who know better and reject God’s truth in enmity to him.) God does not hold us morally responsible for what we do not know. As to grave matter–it’s still evil, having terrible consequences. With contraception I was in a terrible mess, but I didn’t know why. People are lost sheep, lost in the dark–the Good Shepherd is like the father in the prodigal son story–he’s looking for them, reaching out to them. Without charity, all our doctrine is worthless, as St. Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 13. Only God knows who’s in mortal sin–who is or isn’t going to hell. I can only judge my own soul’s condition, and even that isn’t easy because of original sin’s effect on my conscience.
All this is in the Catechism–and it’s so beautiful! God’s mercy is everlasting. At the same time, I totally agree that sin isn’t mentioned by our leaders and should be more, from the pulpits–but it has to be in light of mercy, or it can be sinful in itself. Believe me, I know what you mean…growing up in a mainline denomination, especially with the “faith alone” doctrine, I really believed it was wrong to try to “be good”, to work my way into heaven. You know, God is love, be nice, all that. And it was so spiritually deadening and boring. I was so mixed up, doctrinally. My good Baptist friends are closer to Catholic theology than that. They really are almost home…pray for them!

Anyway, didn’t mean for this to be so long…but many people are committing grave sins, but it doesn’t mean they’re in mortal sin…we have no way of knowing. And God gave us his sacraments, but he’s not bound by them…he saves whoever he wills to save.

In Christ’s Peace,
Lamb

 

[milimac]

“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

I think many people, whether Catholic or Protestant, do not understand the evil of contraception. They don’t have full knowledge and so it is not a mortal sin. On the other hand, not doing what you can to find out why it is a mortal sin may make you culpable. The main problem is that you are denying yourself the greater happiness God wants you to have in this life.

I’ve been listening to Chris West’s talk on the Pope’s Theology of the Body. The body speaks. When one contracepts, a person says something to the effect, “I love you, except I don’t love your fertility”. Sort of like saying, “I love you, except for your big nose – could you wear this bag over your head when we make love?”

I don’t know about what’s binding on whom, but following the teaching of Christ, as taught by His Church, leads to greater happiness for anyone who follows Him – regardless if that person is in full communion or not.

 

[legeorge]

Steven Merten:

Hello legeorge,

I did not realize that if a previous poster says something then we know that that must be gospel truth.

Wow, is that what I said? I was agreeing with several other people’s observations and had nothing to add other than more of the same. Excuse me, sir sensitive!

Jesus says in Mathew 25:31 that he will cast into hell those that do not feed and care for the poor. Yet I only hear Pope John Paul II tell the World Bank and Western Nations to forgive third world debt and care for the poor. I have never heard Pope John Paul II reprimand Catholics that if they do not obey Jesus to feed the poor, tithe or the like, they will burn in hell. I don’t think the Pope is out there echoeing Christ’s words on who burns in hell as you say he is.

Is that what I said? Really? You also said that the Pope doesn’t do enough to deter people from rejecting Humanae Vitae. However, JPII has put forth Evangelium Vitae, the Theology of the Body, etc, and made family issues an important issue during his pontificate. There are lots and lots of so-called Catholics who act nothing like it. Should the Pope have to seek them all out and personally convert their hearts? He does the best he can. You can’t *make * people do the right thing. And, quite frankly, I have never heard him say anything about burning people in hell. I think that is the last thing he wants. If people choose to reject Christ and his Body (the Church) there isn’t anything any person can do about it. If you keep track of the Pope’s monthly prayer intentions, you will see that he prays for all people and for many, many diverse issues. And nothing saves more people from eternal punishment than prayer. The fact that the punishment is in the form of an eternity with the devil and his cohorts, separated from Christ is not the Pope’s doing.

I believe in Real Presence. I think all Protestant faiths do not. The Pope has decided that some Protestant baptism will allow Protestants into heaven. …should the Pope not abandon his worldly politics long enough to get the message out loud, clear and often to the Protestants who are, no doubt in the Pope’s mind, mostly all going to burn in hell for not believing in Real Presence?

I think the world is a pretty big place with billions of people in it, and you expect the Pope to save every one. Protestants are separated from the Church and do not follow the Pope. Therefore, they are not held to the same standard. “To him who is given much, much will be expected”. We are given much as Catholics and need to act accordingly. According to you, the Pope has his hands full with just the Catholics, and now he has to make sure he gets through to all the Protestants too, who don’t think he has any authority and won’t listen to him anyway. And I am quite sure that the Pope doesn’t sit around and think in his mind about how many people are going to hell. That seems to be your job.

A majority of Catholics glorify Pope John Paul II. Yet if 70 to 90% of Catholics are going to burn in hell for disobeying Humanae Vitae, and he is off focussing on American politics rather than attending to a spritual disaster destroying the flock he is supposed to be sheparding, should he be glorified?

I think that there are just as many Catholics who disregard the Pope as there are people who love him. If the majority of Catholics “glorify” the Pope, wouldn’t more people pay attention to what he says?
Do you have an issue with authority? Or maybe you are afraid that you, yourself will “burn in hell” for something? You may have an unhealthy obsession with these things.
The Pope addresses all issues as much as he can. And he has addressed the issues in Humanae Vitae over and over again. People don’t care. They just want to do what they want to do. They want to be wordly and not holy. This has been a problem with humanity since Adam and Eve. I guess you don’t think that Bishops, Priests or lay persons have any responsibility for helping their fellow men obtain the eternal reward of heaven? Is it all the Pope’s job? Just lay everything at his doorstep and the rest of us can just blame him and sleep peacefully at night with our complacence?

I am just here putting it all on the table so we can all look at it and discuss it.

That’s fine.

Oh, and just out of curiosity, have you ever actually seen or heard of someone being declared anathema in such a way as you described in an earlier post? That would be interesting.

 

[romano]

[snip]
“. . . each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.” (Humanae Vitae, 11)

Does this mean that elderly sex between those no longer able to procreate is sinful?

 

[Steven_Merten]

legeorge:

I think the world is a pretty big place with billions of people in it, and you expect the Pope to save every one. Protestants are separated from the Church and do not follow the Pope. Therefore, they are not held to the same standard. “To him who is given much, much will be expected”. We are given much as Catholics and need to act accordingly. According to you, the Pope has his hands full with just the Catholics, and now he has to make sure he gets through to all the Protestants too, who don’t think he has any authority and won’t listen to him anyway. And I am quite sure that the Pope doesn’t sit around and think in his mind about how many people are going to hell. That seems to be your job.

Hello legeorge,

You have hit on one, of a number of reasons, that I posted this thread poll. The poll indicates that most people believe that just as many Protestants will spiritually die from the use of birth control as Catholics. Is this the case or are more Catholics going to spiritually die from using birth control because more is expected of us due to Papal Church binding teachings?

“To him who is given much, much will be expected”. If seventy to ninty percent of Catholics are using birth control and using birth control damns their souls, then more may have been expected from Catholics but the expectation has disasterously not been met. This leads to the final poll question. If someone is a Protestant outside of Church binding teachings, yet in the bosom of the Church through Protestant baptism, are they not spiritually safer there?

We Catholics suffer automatic excommunication for leaving the Catholic Church for the Protestant church and if unrepentant, burn in hell for it. There is no way for a Catholic to cross over to where less is demanded of them to get to heaven. However, is it wise to actively seek to convert a Protestant in face of such a high rate of spiritually deadly failure of one billion Catholics due to higer expectations for Catholics? You seem to indicate that there is some truth to the Protestant aqusation that Catholics have a tremendous amount of Church laws to obey to get to heaven while Protestants do not.

If Protestants do spiritually die from using birth control equal to Catholics doing the same thing, as the poll indicates, then the Pope should redirect his massive amount of time spent on the worldly politics of war, which does not effect eternal damnation of souls, to trying to save some of the massive amounts of Protestants using birth control which damns their souls to hell also. Is not getting people to obey God, (if countering birth control is the will of God needed for salvation) and getting souls into heaven the Church’s highest priority work even if they are Protestant souls?

You said, “And I am quite sure that the Pope doesn’t sit around and think in his mind about how many people are going to hell.”
I agree. Judging by Pope John Paul II’s use of mass media, he sits around thinking about American politics and worldly wars which do not damn souls to hell. I, unlike you, think he should focus on who he thinks is going to hell and focus his time on building up the Kingdom of God rather than worldly events. I do not “expect the Pope to save every one”. I do expect the Pope to make saving everyones soul his infinitely highest priority.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[legeorge]

Steven Merten:

Hello legeorge,

The poll indicates that most people believe that just as many Protestants will spiritually die from the use of birth control as Catholics. Is this the case or are more Catholics going to spiritually die from using birth control because more is expected of us due to Papal Church binding teachings?

I think that commiting a mortal sin repeatedly damages a person’s soul whether they realize it is a sin or not. I don’t think everyone automatically is “spiritually dead” because they use ABC. (only God knows the state of someones soul and whether they are culpable for their sins due to ignorance). Yes, more is expected of Catholics, not just from Papal teachings, but because we are also given a wealth of spiritual gifts and opportunities for grace that other religions are lacking. We have more responsibility because we have the fullness of the Truth, but the benefits are extraordinary.

“To him who is given much, much will be expected”. If seventy to ninty percent of Catholics are using birth control and using birth control damns their souls, then more may have been expected from Catholics but the expectation has disasterously not been met.

Here’s that pesky free will thing again.

This leads to the final poll question. If someone is a Protestant outside of Church binding teachings, yet in the bosom of the Church through Protestant baptism, are they not spiritually safer there?

They also don’t have the benefit of the Sacrament of Confession, the Eucharist, or a myriad of other graces God dispenses to the faithful through his Church, so I would have to say NO.

You seem to indicate that there is some truth to the Protestant aqusation that Catholics have a tremendous amount of Church laws to obey to get to heaven while Protestants do not.

That is just an excuse. “There are too many rules. I don’t like rules.” We forget that it is God who makes the rules. Not people. Just read the Bible. The Pope doesn’t “make up new rules”, he just tries to shepherd the flock through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The path to heaven is narrow. Jesus told us that for a reason. Do you think that all Protestants go straight to Heaven because they don’t believe in Purgatory? I don’t. I think they may be surprised to find themselves there. Being a part of the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church is infinitely better than being anywhere else. Those Protestants, although maybe having a valid Baptism, are still going to be judged. And without the benefits of the Sacraments, they may be found lacking.

If Protestants do spiritually die from using birth control equal to Catholics doing the same thing… then the Pope should redirect his massive amount of time spent on the worldly politics of war… to trying to save some of the massive amounts of Protestants using birth control which damns their souls to hell also. Is not getting people to obey God…and getting souls into heaven the Church’s highest priority work even if they are Protestant souls?

The Pope has quite aggressively addressed the problems that the “culture of death” has caused in this world (i.e. contraception, abortion, euthanasia, homosexual unions, cloning, and on and on). Since he is a very prominent public figure, he has to address things like war and terrorism and other things I am sure he would prefer not to get involved in. He does an incredible job of teaching on a wide variety of issues. He has given us the tools. Since most Protestants won’t listen to anything the Pope says, that would mean we have to start doing our own part to help. How about getting yourself a copy of Evangelium Vitae, and witnessing to our separated brothers and sisters you meet? How about holding the Bishops and Priests accountable for telling the people about some of these things? The Pope puts it out there. We are the ones dropping the ball!

] Judging by Pope John Paul II’s use of mass media, he sits around thinking about American politics and worldly wars which do not damn souls to hell. … I do not “expect the Pope to save every one”. I do expect the Pope to make saving everyones soul his infinitely highest priority.

And do you have some knowledge that it isn’t his highest priority? I am curious, what would you have him do specifically? He, unfortunately, cannot escape media attention. That comes with the territory. As for teachings, have you ever studied JPIIs documents, letters, proclamations, and so forth? Or do you only know what you see reported by the secular media? Do you expect them to report on Papal teachings? Yeah, right. The only reason they report anything about the Pope is if they think it has something to do with them. Have you visited the Vatican website lately? There is a host of information for anyone seeking it. Take a look!

 

[Steven_Merten]

legeorge:

The Pope has quite aggressively addressed the problems that the “culture of death” has caused in this world (i.e. contraception, abortion, euthanasia, homosexual unions, cloning, and on and on). Since he is a very prominent public figure, he has to address things like war and terrorism and other things I am sure he would prefer not to get involved in.

When ever I hear the Pope talking about “culture of death” I get the impression he is talking about physical death like war, capital punishment. And in case of abortion when he states “culture of death” in my mind, I hear him reffering to physical death. If the Pope is defining “culture of death” as the spiritual death of Christians, and not physical death of the world, he should make this absolutely clear to us. I am sure most people when they think of the Popes statement “culture of death” they think he is reffering to the world and physical death.

Do you have a quote from the Pope defining who he is talking to when he states "culture of death. Is he talking about physical death in the world or spiritual death in the Church?

If you can prove to me that Pope John Paul II is warning Christians of spiritual death when he states “culture of death” and not some sort of world physical death which would include capital punishment and war, then I will agree that he does have his priorities strait on the issue of “culture of death”.

legeorge:

And do you have some knowledge that it isn’t his highest priority?

You are the one who gave me knowledge that Pope John Paul II is not sitting around worrying about souls going to hell as his highest priority.

You said, “And I am quite sure that the Pope doesn’t sit around and think in his mind about how many people are going to hell.”

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[legeorge]

…Protestants who are, no doubt in the Pope’s mind, mostly all going to burn in hell for not believing in Real Presence?

I was referring to this remark, and what I meant was that I doubt that the Pope judges people like that. He doesn’t look at a group of people and say, “well, they’re going to hell”.

 

[legeorge]

Steven, You keep dodging my questions. Have you read the Pope’s encyclicals, documents, letters and teachings or not? If not, you have brought baseless accusations against him. Do you personally know the burden he carries in his heart? Do you know how much he offers up his suffering for your sake? Unless you have read everything written by JPII during his Pontificate you cannot say that he has not addressed serious issues such as those written in Humanae Vitae. Yet again, I ask, what, specifically, would you have him do differently? If you, a concerned and involved Catholic, have not paid any mind to the Pope’s teachings, how do you expect him to reach the rest of the world, especially without the media that you condemn him for using?
The reality is that you just want someone to blame for all the ills of the world and the Pope is an easy target. I still haven’t seen you offer to help spread the Good News as the Pope has called for in his plea for a “new evangelization”. How are you celebrating the “Year of the Eucharist” he has pronounced? The Pope is a very educated and holy man. He deserves your respect at the least. I strongly urge you to read Evangelium Vitae and reflect on what the Pope is saying. Then come back and post some more. Maybe you will have a new perspective.

 

[Lamb100]

With respect to my earlier post #78:

<<I was genuinely invincibly ignorant. (with the exception of the pill, as mentioned above–and that would be a matter for God to decide–there was definitely some deficiency in my knowledge.) It didn’t have anything to do with selfishness, or not wanting to find out truth.>>

Well, upon reflection, I’m not really sure if this is completely true. (Nothing like being a new Catholic and having to live by an objective moral code for the first time in my life!) Once I had a suspicion life begins at conception, can I really say it’s lack of knowledge if I decide to ignore that? I think really what my thought processes were consisted of thinking, ’ well, there are different views as to when life begins, and who knows if this is right or not?’ Moral relativism at its worst. However, I was ignorant about how much moral relativism influenced my thinking. You know, we have to be tolerant of all views and all that… Also, it was just hard to imagine something that small being a human being. (Wow, has awareness of the Blessed Sacrament changed that–praise his holy name!) That misguided sense of fairness, combined with the implications of changing my views (selfishness here?)–but all this barely came to the level of my consciousness. Hope this makes sense. I just think it’s interesting to show how confused by sin we mortals can become when we have a poorly formed conscience.

 

[Lamb100]

Re: post 39

<<The clergy have remained silent for many years and privately counseled couples that it may be OK - does this reflect their own pastoral concerns and that if they keep us ignorant it lessens our sin? A conspiracy of sorts?>>

I think it may be a misguided act of charity (if one can say an act of charity can be misguided). Sometimes I’ve wondered the same thing–that pastors and spiritual directors may think they’re doing us a kindness if they can nullify the knowledge component of mortal sin so that people aren’t condemned. But…then what about their own culpability?

 

[Steven_Merten]

Lamb100:

With respect to my earlier post #78:

<<I was genuinely invincibly ignorant. (with the exception of the pill, as mentioned above–and that would be a matter for God to decide–there was definitely some deficiency in my knowledge.) It didn’t have anything to do with selfishness, or not wanting to find out truth.>>

Well, upon reflection, I’m not really sure if this is completely true. (Nothing like being a new Catholic and having to live by an objective moral code for the first time in my life!) Once I had a suspicion life begins at conception, can I really say it’s lack of knowledge if I decide to ignore that? I think really what my thought processes were consisted of thinking, ’ well, there are different views as to when life begins, and who knows if this is right or not?’ Moral relativism at its worst. However, I was ignorant about how much moral relativism influenced my thinking. You know, we have to be tolerant of all views and all that… Also, it was just hard to imagine something that small being a human being. (Wow, has awareness of the Blessed Sacrament changed that–praise his holy name!) That misguided sense of fairness, combined with the implications of changing my views (selfishness here?)–but all this barely came to the level of my consciousness. Hope this makes sense. I just think it’s interesting to show how confused by sin we mortals can become when we have a poorly formed conscience.

Hello Lamb100,

I thank you for all your heart felt responses in this thread.

I agree with you when you say moral relativism at its worst.

"I think really what my thought processes were consisted of thinking, ’ well, there are different views as to when life begins, and who knows if this is right or not?’ Moral relativism at its worst.

I think the question to ask is when was it Jesus in Mary’s womb? Was it at the time when the angle appeared to her and said she had concieved or was it days, weeks or months later? The truth is that it was Jesus in Mary’s womb at conception.

I do not know much about the pill. I do not know if it causes abortions, does not allow the embreo to attach, does not signal the body that conception has occured, or simply does not allow an egg to develope and flow through the falopian tube.

I always specify condoms, tube tying or vasectomies, which do not cause abortions, when discussing birth control. This keeps the discussion down to one issue. Obviously any form of birth control which has any possibility of abortion is imoral simply on the stand that abortion is murder. When we talk about non-abortion birth control we are focusing in on birth control alone.

Thank you again for your heart felt (name removed by moderator)ut.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Steven_Merten]

legeorge:

The reality is that you just want someone to blame for all the ills of the world and the Pope is an easy target. I still haven’t seen you offer to help spread the Good News as the Pope has called for in his plea for a “new evangelization”. How are you celebrating the “Year of the Eucharist” he has pronounced? The Pope is a very educated and holy man. He deserves your respect at the least. I strongly urge you to read Evangelium Vitae and reflect on what the Pope is saying. Then come back and post some more. Maybe you will have a new perspective.

Hello legeorge,

I do not blame the Pope for all the ills of the world. I blame the Pope for ill condition of the Church. The world is not the Pope’s responsibility. The Church is.

I do respect the authorititative position of the papacy as I respect the authoritative position of the American presidency. As the presidency can have poor leaders so can the papacy. Many people on these Catholic Answers Forum threads believe that a majority of people are going to hell because they did not find these papal decrees, on their own, read them, on their own, and obey them. Meanwhile the Pope is out focusing on world events which do not cause eternal death to Christ’s flock. This is poor leadership.

Please give us a link the the Vatican page which has Evangelium Vitae and a Vatican link to Humanae Vitae.

As a Christian I do believe in, and am doing my part to spread the Good News. www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[itsjustdave1988]

romano:

Does this mean that elderly sex between those no longer able to procreate is sinful?

No. Non-procreative sex (ie. natural cause) is not immoral. Human acts that render sex instrinsically non-procreative is immoral (unnaturally caused).

 

[legeorge]

Here is the link to the Vatican
vatican.va/phome_en.htm

Type humanae vitae or evangelium vitae into the search and have fun reading!!

 

[Tom_of_Assisi]

space ghost:

that’s between them and God… i suggest that you look more for the timber in your eye and worry less about the splinter in your neighbor’s eye…

Sooooo…if someone asked if they would go to hell for avarice or murder…you would tell them that it is between them and God???

Alas…you cannot answer: our resident cliche bleeding heart liberal has resigned from these threads.

Farwell Space Ghost, may God continue to bless you in your faith :tiphat: .