Does Satan have our world under a strong spell?

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Our Lord’s greatest invitation is to co-operate with Him by loving Him and everyone else on earth and in heaven.
Yes, LOVE is important in our salvation, but ought to be a part of the Cross
There is a vast difference between living for worldly things and enjoying the good things in this world
Often, what we consider the enjoyable things in the world is a stumbling block for following Christ.
Do you believe Jesus was a miserable person?
Christ was overflowing with LOVE! Not miserable per se, but a most serious goal of our salvation.
The joy of the Resurrection should be paramount because that is the reason why Jesus suffered and died for us. Suffering in itself is of no value.
Christ wants us to follow in His footsteps to achieve salvation. Sacrifice, including the acceptance of pain and suffering, is key to salvation.
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              Please explain what you mean and justify your assertion.
NATURAL IMPULSE
THE good impulse (yetser tov) and the evil impulse (yetser ra) are pictured in Jewish literature as wrestling in perpetual conflict within the heart of man. Satan is usually identified with the yetser ha-ra, the evil impulse. In the book of Job, Satan’s function is described as that of testing the sincerity of men’s characters. In Talmudic literature, Satan’s function is to strengthen man’s moral sense by leading him into temptation. It has been said that every man living shall assuredly meet with an hour of temptation, a certain critical hour, which shall more especially try his mettle.

According to a midrashic statement (Genesis Rabbah 9:9), the existence of the yetser ha-ra in the heart of man and the struggle to overcome it lends high value to the good that emerges from the inner battle. The two conflicting impulses, the good and bad tendencies, are said to be implanted in man as a consequence of his having been formed from the dust and endowed with a soul (Genesis 2:7).

According to rabbinic thinking, the evil impulse is to be found in man at birth; the good impulse begins to develop when he is thirteen years old. The teachings of the Torah are referred to as the antidote to the yetser ha-ra. Similarly, Ben Sira (21:11) states: “The man who keeps the Law controls his natural tendency.”

In commenting on the two yods in the word " ", (Genesis 2:7), the rabbis declare that God created both the yetser tov and the yetser ra (Berakhoth 61a). The command to love God “with all your heart” they interpret to mean “with both your impulses” (Berakhoth Ma), since both human elements can be employed in the service of God. “Were it not for the yetser ha-ra, no man would build a home or get married or follow an occupation” (Genesis Rabbah 9:9). The phrase “very good” (Genesis 1:31) is therefore explained, as alluding to the yetser ha-ra, frequently used in the sense of the productive urge.

Taken from the Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts

Genesis 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
We live in a world redeemed by Our Lord.
But there’s still the vital need for our salvation.
Code:
             *1. Is there nothing else that is truly good?
  1. What is the purpose of this life if heaven is our destination?
  2. Why are we given bodies if they are merely a source of evil and temptation?
  3. Has God set a trap for us?*
  1. In the end, just God
  2. Again, the purification of our soul and God’s divine plan for our salvation.
  3. The body is not evil in and of itself, but prone to the forces of evil.
  4. NO! Satan set the trap.
Since God created us in His image and likeness we cannot be intrinsically evil.
Why do we have a body if the only purpose of this life is purification of our soul?
You have stated that God alone is good.
If the body is merely a source of evil and temptation God shouldn’t have given us a body…
Again, the body is not evil, but prone to the forces of evil, including our walking in folly.
 
Daily carrying the Cross of Christ is the greatest invitation of Christ. We must cooperate with God in our salvation. We are warned time and time again not to live for worldly things.

Why should the joy of the Resurrection define our attitude to existence? Do you have a source, or are you interjecting your own personal opinion?

Christ is the Son of God, with a mission for our salvation. Nowhere do we see Christ seeking worldly things.

Yes. But this is no license to be worldly. Carrying the Cross is paramount.

The term ‘very good’ alludes to the evil inclination in Judaism. In any event, we live in a fallen world, overcome with evil.
  1. God alone is ‘good.’
  2. Purification of our soul.
  3. Before the fall, our bodies were good, but afterwards we became very susceptible to evil.
  4. NO!!!
LOVE! 🙂
Certainly we should not LUST after worldly things and material possessions in this world and make this the central focus of our lives. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t enjoy simple earthly pleasures, which G-d provided for us. To be miserable one’s whole life is to reject the life on earth that G-d gave us. As the Talmud says: “If I am not for myself, who will be for me; but if I am for myself alone, what am I; and if not now, when?” We are obligated to respect ourselves and enjoy G-d’s abundance; but, at the same time, we must care for others and not be self-centered. All this must be done without delay for tomorrow may be too late.

You mentioned “very good” and connected this to the evil inclination according to Judaism. It is true that G-d proclaimed the world to be “good” and only after He created mankind did He call it “very good.” This is a reference to bestowing free will on mankind: that is, the capacity to choose good or evil. However, the so-called evil inclination is essential provided it is tamed and not abused. Our self-centered desires can be used for good rather than evil and are necessary for self-preservation as well as the caring of others.
 
Certainly we should not LUST after worldly things and material possessions in this world and make this the central focus of our lives. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t enjoy simple earthly pleasures, which G-d provided for us. To be miserable one’s whole life is to reject the life on earth that G-d gave us. As the Talmud says: “If I am not for myself, who will be for me; but if I am for myself alone, what am I; and if not now, when?” We are obligated to respect ourselves and enjoy G-d’s abundance; but, at the same time, we must care for others and not be self-centered. All this must be done without delay for tomorrow may be too late.

You mentioned “very good” and connected this to the evil inclination according to Judaism. It is true that G-d proclaimed the world to be “good” and only after He created mankind did He call it “very good.” This is a reference to bestowing free will on mankind: that is, the capacity to choose good or evil. However, the so-called evil inclination is essential provided it is tamed and not abused. Our self-centered desires can be used for good rather than evil and are necessary for self-preservation as well as the caring of others.
If Catholics understood salvation, I think most of them would gladly forgo lowly, earthly enjoyments in favor of carrying their cross and growing closer to Christ. Carrying the cross results in much spiritual LOVE.

LOVE! 🙂
 
If Catholics understood salvation, I think most of them would gladly forgo lowly, earthly enjoyments in favor of carrying their cross and growing closer to Christ. Carrying the cross results in much spiritual LOVE.

LOVE! 🙂
Why can a faithful not do both?
 
If Catholics understood salvation, I think most of them would gladly forgo lowly, earthly enjoyments in favor of carrying their cross and growing closer to Christ. Carrying the cross results in much spiritual LOVE.

LOVE! 🙂
  1. Is having children, caring for them and bringing them up as Christians a lowly, earthly enjoyment?
  2. Is educating people to appreciate and enjoy the beauty and wonder of nature a lowly, earthly enjoyment?
  3. Are writing an inspiring poem or essay and creating a work of art which gives glory to God lowly, earthly enjoyments?
  4. Should we carry our cross every moment of the day and night without ever enjoying ourselves?
 
You can’t do both at the same time. It all comes down to the degree to which you choose each.

LOVE! 🙂
Why not? You have not shown in Church teaching nor in Scripture that you cannot do both.

If you say the enjoying the good of this life is serving oneself instead of God you will need to provide evidence beyond your biased interpretation of Scripture.
 
Our Lord’s greatest invitation is to co-operate with Him by loving Him and everyone else on earth and in heaven.
Should we think of the Cross more than the Resurrection and the Joy of Heaven?
There is a vast difference between living for worldly things and enjoying the good things in this world
Often, what we consider the enjoyable things in the world is a stumbling block for following Christ.

So enjoying the good things in this world is not always a stumbling block?
Do you believe Jesus was a miserable person?
Christ was overflowing with LOVE! Not miserable per se, but a most serious goal of our salvation.

Was Jesus never joyful? Didn’t He celebrate with the wedding guests?
The joy of the Resurrection should be paramount because that is the reason why Jesus suffered and died for us. Suffering in itself is of no value.
Christ wants us to follow in His footsteps to achieve salvation. Sacrifice, including the acceptance of pain and suffering, is key to salvation.

Doesn’t imitating Christ lead to the joy of the Resurrection? Were the saints miserable?
We live in a world redeemed by Our Lord.
But there’s still the vital need for our salvation.

Is Satan’s spell more powerful than Our Lord’s love?
Is there nothing else that is truly good?
In the end, just God

So the angels and saints in heaven are not good?
What is the purpose of this life if heaven is our destination?
Again, the purification of our soul and God’s divine plan for our salvation.

Why did He give us a body if it endangers our salvation?
Again, the body is not evil, but prone to the forces of evil, including our walking in folly.
Then God is responsible for creating something which is prone to the forces of evil?
Has God set a trap for us?
NO! Satan set the trap.

Why would a loving Father permit some one to set a trap for His children?
 
Should we think of the Cross more than the Resurrection and the Joy of Heaven?
Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.
-CCC
You decide!
So enjoying the good things in this world is not always a stumbling block?
Yes, they can be to the degree it is not leading us to Christ.
Was Jesus never joyful? Didn’t He celebrate with the wedding guests?
Christ is LOVE and I suspect He smiled a lot, but no, celebrating in and of itself is probably not characteristic of Christ.
Doesn’t imitating Christ lead to the joy of the Resurrection? Were the saints miserable?
Why do you insist on using the word miserably!?! No, following Christ fills one with LOVE and divine meaning.
Is Satan’s spell more powerful than Our Lord’s love?
Again, I said time and time again that the ‘good’ and ‘evil’ work together in this world.
So the angels and saints in heaven are not good?
Angels and saints do not exist independently of God. In the face of God, all things are nullified.
Why did He give us a body if it endangers our salvation?
Why did God place the Tree of good and evil to exist right in the middle of the garden where Adam and Eve could be tempted by it?

Anyway, I would contend that our bodies facilitates salvation, even though they are prone to sin.
Then God is responsible for creating something which is prone to the forces of evil?
The body was not always prone to evil, but just after the fall.

Why would a loving Father permit some one to set a trap for His children?
God allows us to be tempted and controlled by Satan.

Now, let me ask you what you think about the quotes in posts 138 and 139? Or, is my using these quotes somehow inappropriate? Please explain.
 
Why not? You have not shown in Church teaching nor in Scripture that you cannot do both.

If you say the enjoying the good of this life is serving oneself instead of God you will need to provide evidence beyond your biased interpretation of Scripture.
I’m talking about concrete events like watching a good football game instead of saying the rosary.

Where did I say you cannot enjoy your food!!! It’s treasuring the things in this life that are incongruent with the LOVE of Christ that creates the problem. Live for the Cross of Christ, and not the things of this world.
 
THE DISCIPLE. Whatever I can wish or imagine for my consolation, I do not expect now, but hereafter. For if I were to enjoy all the pleasures of the world, and were able to taste all its delights, they would surely pass away. Therefore my soul can never find full satisfaction or perfect refreshment save in God alone, who is the comfort of the poor and protector of the humble. Be patient, my soul; await the fulfillment of God’s promise, and you shall enjoy the abundance of His goodness in Heaven. But if you hanker inordinately after the good things of this life, you will lose those of heaven and eternity. Therefore make right use of this world’s goods, but long only for those that are eternal. This world’s good things can never satisfy you, for you are not created for the enjoyment of these alone.
-The Imitation of Christ, Book 3, Chapter 16
 
I’m talking about concrete events like watching a good football game instead of saying the rosary.

Where did I say you cannot enjoy your food!!! It’s treasuring the things in this life that are incongruent with the LOVE of Christ that creates the problem. Live for the Cross of Christ, and not the things of this world.
This addresses neither my question nor my comment.
 
Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.
-CCC
You decide!
Why should we dwell on the Cross more than the Resurrection and the Joy of Heaven?
So enjoying the good things in this world is not always a stumbling block?
Yes, they can be to the degree it is not leading us to Christ.

Then we agree that enjoyment of the good things in this world is legitimate provided it is not inordinate…
Was Jesus never joyful? Didn’t He celebrate with the wedding guests?
Christ is LOVE and I suspect He smiled a lot, but no, celebrating in and of itself is probably not characteristic of Christ.

Wasn’t Jesus like us in all things but sin?
Doesn’t imitating Christ lead to the joy of the Resurrection? Were the saints miserable?
Why do you insist on using the word miserably!?! No, following Christ fills one with LOVE and divine meaning.

Doesn’t imitating Christ fill us with joy?
Is Satan’s spell more powerful than Our Lord’s love?
Again, I said time and time again that the ‘good’ and ‘evil’ work together in this world.

Are they equally balanced?
So the angels and saints in heaven are not good?
Angels and saints do not exist independently of God. In the face of God, all things are nullified.

What is the meaning of “nullified” in this context?
Why did He give us a body if it endangers our salvation?
Why did God place the Tree of good and evil to exist right in the middle of the garden where Adam and Eve could be tempted by it?

One question doesn’t answer another!
Anyway, I would contend that our bodies facilitates salvation, even though they are prone to sin.
Please explain how our bodies facilitate salvation.
The body was not always prone to evil, but just after the fall.
So the body is not intrinsically evil…
Why would a loving Father permit some one to set a trap for His children?
God allows us to be tempted and controlled by Satan.

Why does He do this knowing it may lead us to hell?
Now, let me ask you what you think about the quotes in posts 138 and 139? Or, is my using these quotes somehow inappropriate? Please explain.
I have already pointed out that not everyone has a vocation to be a monk or a nun cloistered from the world. Total detachment is the goal of Buddhists not Christians. We are not expected to shun worldly things and regard ourselves as prisoners waiting for death to deliver us from the curse of existence on earth. Jesus didn’t set out to make people miserable by bringing them the Good News but heal and console them so that they could demonstrate by their example that we are created to serve God and be happy with Him in this world and the next.
  1. Is having children, caring for them and bringing them up as Christians a lowly, earthly enjoyment?
  2. Is educating people to appreciate and enjoy the beauty and wonder of nature a lowly, earthly enjoyment?
  3. Are writing an inspiring poem or essay and creating a work of art which gives glory to God lowly, earthly enjoyments?
  4. Should we carry our cross every moment of the day and night without ever enjoying ourselves?
 
Why should we dwell on the Cross more than the Resurrection and the Joy of Heaven?
I personally focus a lot on the joy of heaven, and it is not worldly, but I do not think it will gain us salvation the way following the cross does. All of us are called to carry the cross.

ccel.org/ccel/kempis/imitation.TWO.12.html
Then we agree that enjoyment of the good things in this world is legitimate provided it is not inordinate…
What are the good things in this world? Nowhere in scripture or Catholic teachings are we asked to enjoy the ‘good’ things of the world. But we are obliged to carry the Cross of Christ.
Wasn’t Jesus like us in all things but sin?
Christ is God, we are not.
Doesn’t imitating Christ fill us with joy?
As I have been saying all along, carrying the Cross of Christ ought to fill us with LOVE!
Are they equally balanced?
I do not know.
What is the meaning of “nullified” in this context?
Cease to exist.
One question doesn’t answer another!
Who says our body hampers our salvation?
Please explain how our bodies facilitate salvation.
I never came across any text that explains this.
So the body is not intrinsically evil…
Again, I never came across anything that addresses this, but I do not see these bodies as being intrinsically evil.
Why does He do this knowing it may lead us to hell?
I do not know.
I have already pointed out that not everyone has a vocation to be a monk or a nun cloistered from the world. Total detachment is the goal of Buddhists not Christians. We are not expected to shun worldly things and regard ourselves as prisoners waiting for death to deliver us from the curse of existence on earth. Jesus didn’t set out to make people miserable by bringing them the Good News but heal and console them so that they could demonstrate by their example that we are created to serve God and be happy with Him in this world and the next.
You’re being highly selective in which of my quotes you’re focusing on here. My quotes, taken as a whole, strongly point out our need to follow in the footsteps of Christ and partake in His cross
  1. Is having children, caring for them and bringing them up as Christians a lowly, earthly enjoyment?
  2. Is educating people to appreciate and enjoy the beauty and wonder of nature a lowly, earthly enjoyment?
  3. Are writing an inspiring poem or essay and creating a work of art which gives glory to God lowly, earthly enjoyments?
  4. Should we carry our cross every moment of the day and night without ever enjoying ourselves?
  1. Yes, in that this world is the lowest of all the worlds God created (see Judaism).
  2. YES!!!
  3. Yes, but it might also be righteous.
  4. Carrying the Cross is LOVE! We do not need to enjoy this world to get to our Heavenly home, but we must carry the cross the be saved.
 
I personally focus a lot on the joy of heaven, and it is not worldly, but I do not think it will gain us salvation the way following the cross does. All of us are called to carry the cross.

What are the good things in this world? Nowhere in scripture or Catholic teachings are we asked to enjoy the ‘good’ things of the world. But we are obliged to carry the Cross of Christ.

Christ is God, we are not.

As I have been saying all along, carrying the Cross of Christ ought to fill us with LOVE!

I do not know.

Cease to exist.

Who says our body hampers our salvation?

I never came across any text that explains this.

Again, I never came across anything that addresses this, but I do not see these bodies as being intrinsically evil.

I do not know.

You’re being highly selective in which of my quotes you’re focusing on here. My quotes, taken as a whole, strongly point out our need to follow in the footsteps of Christ and partake in His cross
  1. Yes, in that this world is the lowest of all the worlds God created (see Judaism).
  2. YES!!!
  3. Yes, but it might also be righteous.
  4. Carrying the Cross is LOVE! We do not need to enjoy this world to get to our Heavenly home, but we must carry the cross the be saved.
Robert, I think Tony was referring to the humanness of Jesus rather than His divinity. Your answers to the four questions Tony posed are, to my knowledge, not representative of Catholic theology and, I know, are not in keeping with Jewish theology. It sounds more like Sockian theology to me. Also, please elaborate on the idea that “this world is the lowest of all the worlds G-d created.” It sounds like part of Kabbalah that some Hasidic Jews believe. However, Hasidism also extols the spiritual quality of mundane, earthly tasks, such as eating and sexuality, for example.
 
Robert, I think Tony was referring to the humanness of Jesus rather than His divinity. Your answers to the four questions Tony posed are, to my knowledge, not representative of Catholic theology and, I know, are not in keeping with Jewish theology. It sounds more like Sockian theology to me. Also, please elaborate on the idea that “this world is the lowest of all the worlds G-d created.” It sounds like part of Kabbalah that some Hasidic Jews believe. However, Hasidism also extols the spiritual quality of mundane, earthly tasks, such as eating and sexuality, for example.
This world is not only physical — so that the truth of G‑d’s creative power is not in evidence; it is also gross, in that the lie is held up as a truth.
m.chabad.org/dailystudy/tanya.asp?tdate=3/9/2014

Sounds like a spell (illusion) to me!

[This world] is the lowest in degree; there is none lower than it in terms of concealment of His light and no world compares with it for doubled and redoubled darkness; nowhere is G‑d’s light hidden as in this world.
m.chabad.org/dailystudy/tanya.asp?tdate=3/9/2014

The four questions are my own answers, but I fail to see where they fit in with the question of of our world being under a spell or our call to carry the Cross of Christ.
 
This world is not only physical — so that the truth of G‑d’s creative power is not in evidence; it is also gross, in that the lie is held up as a truth.
m.chabad.org/dailystudy/tanya.asp?tdate=3/9/2014

Sounds like a spell (illusion) to me!

[This world] is the lowest in degree; there is none lower than it in terms of concealment of His light and no world compares with it for doubled and redoubled darkness; nowhere is G‑d’s light hidden as in this world.
m.chabad.org/dailystudy/tanya.asp?tdate=3/9/2014

The four questions are my own answers, but I fail to see where they fit in with the question of of our world being under a spell or our call to carry the Cross of Christ.
But we are called to love (as you have reiterated) others in THIS world and do whatever we can to better their condition and bring them some level of peace, comfort, and solace. G-d expects us to do this. How would it be possible to carry out G-d’s major command if our world were under a strong satanic spell? And why would G-d allow this spell to persist when He knows it thwarts our efforts?
 
But we are called to love (as you have reiterated) others in THIS world and do whatever we can to better their condition and bring them some level of peace, comfort, and solace. G-d expects us to do this. How would it be possible to carry out G-d’s major command if our world were under a strong satanic spell? And why would G-d allow this spell to persist when He knows it thwarts our efforts?
Yes, LOVE is paramount, and charity must abound.

I believe the strong spell gives way to a fantasy. The fantasy allows for God’s light to shine through, and for us to carry the Cross of Christ from within this world. However, the spell does not necessarily thwart our efforts in our quest for salvation. We can still be tempted and tested.

Why did God allow Satan to torment Job? I do not know! Same for God’s will to have us under Satan’s spell. I do not really know why except to say it’s within His plan for our salvation.

LOVE! 🙂
 
Why should we dwell on the Cross more than the Resurrection and the Joy of Heaven?
We are also called to believe in the Resurrection and share the **joy **ofthe Apostles when Jesus appeared to them. The early Christian martyrs rejoiced as they went to their deaths in the Colosseum because they believed they were going to heaven. There is far more to following Jesus than following the Cross if we accept the Beatitudes. It is introverted and unbalanced to focus on penance and mortification rather than works of charity and mercy. We should we less concerned about our own salvation than the physical and spiritual needs of others.
Then we agree that enjoyment of the good things in this world is legitimate provided it is not inordinate…
What are the good things in this world? Nowhere in scripture or Catholic teachings are we asked to enjoy the ‘good’ things of the world. But we are obliged to carry the Cross of Christ.

Are you saying that we should not enjoy God’s gifts? Is enjoyment a sin?
Wasn’t Jesus like us in all things but sin?
Christ is God, we are not.

Was Jesus like us in all things but sin?
Doesn’t imitating Christ fill us with joy?
As I have been saying all along, carrying the Cross of Christ ought to fill us with LOVE!

Doesn’t love for Jesus fill us with joy?
Are they equally balanced?
I do not know.

Then how do you know Satan has us under a **strong **spell?
What is the meaning of “nullified” in this context?
Cease to exist.

Do the saints cease to exist in heaven?
One question doesn’t answer another!
Who says our body hampers our salvation?

Two questions don’t answer a question!
Please explain how our bodies facilitate salvation.
I never came across any text that explains this.

Then how do you know it is true?
So the body is not intrinsically evil.

Again, I never came across anything that addresses this, but I do not see these bodies as being intrinsically evil.

Yet you believe the body is prone to evil…
Why does He do this knowing it may lead us to hell?
I do not know.

Then how do you know God allows us to be controlled - as opposed to tempted - by Satan?
I have already pointed out that not everyone has a vocation to be a monk or a nun cloistered from the world. Total detachment is the goal of Buddhists not Christians. We are not expected to shun worldly things and regard ourselves as prisoners waiting for death to deliver us from the curse of existence on earth. Jesus didn’t set out to make people miserable by bringing them the Good News but heal and console them so that they could demonstrate by their example that we are created to serve God and be happy with Him in this world and the next.
You’re being highly selective in which of my quotes you’re focusing on here. My quotes, taken as a whole, strongly point out our need to follow in the footsteps of Christ and partake in His cross

Why use the parts of quotes which do not reflect your views? 🙂
  1. Is having children, caring for them and bringing them up as Christians a lowly, earthly enjoyment?
  1. Is educating people to appreciate and enjoy the beauty and wonder of nature a lowly, earthly enjoyment?
  2. Are writing an inspiring poem or essay and creating a work of art which gives glory to God lowly, earthly enjoyments?
  3. Should we carry our cross every moment of the day and night without ever enjoying ourselves?
  1. Yes, in that this world is the lowest of all the worlds God created (see Judaism).
Please cite a Catholic text to that effect.
Then you don’t believe the beauty and wonder of nature are evidence of the power and glory of God…
  1. Yes, but it might also be righteous.
Is being righteous lowly and earthly?
  1. Carrying the Cross is LOVE! We do not need to enjoy this world to get to our Heavenly home, but we must carry the cross the be saved.
Should we carry our cross every moment of the day and night without ever enjoying ourselves?

N.B. I apologise for asking so many questions, Robert, but my sole aim is to persude you to be more positive in your interpretation of Christ’s teaching. I share the view of C.E.M.Joad, an English philosopher and atheist, who became a Christian because he realised atrocities like the Holocaust cannot have a natural explanation. There is diabolical evil in the world but the vast majority of people are not under Satan’ spell. Most of the needless misery and suffering in the world is caused by ignorance, laziness and selfishness rather than malice, callousness and deliberate cruelty. The words of Jesus on the Cross apply not only to His executioners but to most of us (to some extent) : “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.”
 
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