Does Satan have our world under a strong spell?

[Robert_Sock]

We are also called to believe in the Resurrection and share the **joy **ofthe Apostles when Jesus appeared to them. The early Christian martyrs rejoiced as they went to their deaths in the Colosseum because they believed they were going to heaven. There is far more to following Jesus than following the Cross if we accept the Beatitudes. It is introverted and unbalanced to focus on penance and mortification rather than works of charity and mercy. We should we less concerned about our own salvation than the physical and spiritual needs of others.

YES! Always rejoice when Christ appears, but that does not mean that we need not following the Cross in this life.

Are you saying that we should not enjoy God’s gifts? Is enjoyment a sin?

To the degree that enjoying these things prevent us from our carrying the Cross.

Was Jesus like us in all things but sin?

Not having sin makes Him worlds apart from us.

Doesn’t love for Jesus fill us with joy?

Yes, and following the Cross allows this.

Then how do you know Satan has us under a **strong **spell?

We know the ‘good’ will get us to Heaven. But I still do not the answer.

Do the saints cease to exist in heaven?

No, but they are not looking God into the face (again, this is borrowed from Judaism).

Two questions don’t answer a question!

I do not necessarily that the body impedes salvation.

Then how do you know it is true?

This question seems irrelevant, and I cannot address it with any certainty.

Yet you believe the body is prone to evil…

I guess we are misunderstanding each other, but I’m not sure how. The body being prone to evil does not mean the body intrinsically evil.

Then how do you know God allows us to be controlled - as opposed to tempted - by Satan?

It’s not something I know, but that I assume.

Why use the parts of quotes which do not reflect your views?

I believe that all my quotes are relevant.

Then you don’t believe the beauty and wonder of nature are evidence of the power and glory of God…

I believe them to be a stumbling block. Monks and Hermits do the same. If it does not directly facilitate the LOVE of God, Then it’s worldly, and to be avoided.

Is being righteous lowly and earthly?

The person is indeed lowly, but is righteous in keeping with the Cross.

Should we carry our cross every moment of the day and night without ever enjoying ourselves?

Yes, we should make the Cross our number one priority.

N.B. I apologise for asking so many questions, Robert, but my sole aim is to persude you to be more positive in your interpretation of Christ’s teaching. I share the view of C.E.M.Joad, an English philosopher and atheist, who became a Christian because he realised atrocities like the Holocaust cannot have a natural explanation. There is diabolical evil in the world but the vast majority of people are not under Satan’ spell. Most of the needless misery and suffering in the world is caused by ignorance, laziness and selfishness rather than malice, callousness and deliberate cruelty. The words of Jesus on the Cross apply not only to His executioners but to most of us (to some extent) : “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.”

I believe that you are greatly underestimating the diabolical nature of Satan.

 

[tonyrey]

YES! Always rejoice when Christ appears, but that does not mean that we need not following the Cross in this life.

To the degree that enjoying these things prevent us from our carrying the Cross.

Not having sin makes Him worlds apart from us.

Yes, and following the Cross allows this.

We know the ‘good’ will get us to Heaven. But I still do not the answer.

No, but they are not looking God into the face (again, this is borrowed from Judaism).

I do not necessarily that the body impedes salvation.

This question seems irrelevant, and I cannot address it with any certainty.

I guess we are misunderstanding each other, but I’m not sure how. The body being prone to evil does not mean the body intrinsically evil.

It’s not something I know, but that I assume.

I believe that all my quotes are relevant.

I believe them to be a stumbling block. Monks and Hermits do the same. If it does not directly facilitate the LOVE of God, Then it’s worldly, and to be avoided.

The person is indeed lowly, but is righteous in keeping with the Cross.

Yes, we should make the Cross our number one priority.

I believe that you are greatly underestimating the diabolical nature of Satan.

You have not made a convincing case for Satan having a strong spell over our world…

We are called to believe in the Resurrection and share the joy of the Apostles when Jesus appeared to them. The early Christian martyrs rejoiced as they went to their deaths in the Colosseum. There is far more to following Jesus than following the Cross. It is introverted and unbalanced to focus on penance and mortification rather than works of charity and mercy. We should be less concerned about our own salvation than the physical and spiritual needs of others.

C.E.M.Joad, an English philosopher and atheist, became a Christian because he realised atrocities like the Holocaust cannot have a natural explanation.** There is diabolical evil in the world but the vast majority of people are not under
Satan’s spell**. Most of the needless misery and suffering in the world is caused by ignorance, laziness and selfishness rather than malice, callousness and deliberate cruelty. The words of Jesus on the Cross apply not only to His executioners but to most of us: “Forgive them, Father, for** they know not what they do**.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

I personally focus a lot on the joy of heaven, and it is not worldly, but I do not think it will gain us salvation the way following the cross does. All of us are called to carry the cross.

Its not one without the other but both. Your case would be correct "spell, "before the resurrection, not since communion is re-established.

Its right to understand the Cross, and resolved through the resurrection. Had there been no resurrection to what avail was the Cross?

Its common for Christians to focus on the Cross, but you cannot understand the suffering without contemplation on the resurrection. It gives meaning to the suffering which is redemption. The Cross is the path to salvation, salvation is the particular and final judgment. Embracing one is indicative of the other. You are “saved” when you stand before the Throne of God, not before. There was “no-one” saved, before the resurrection, not one. Christ was the first Raised from the dead, Man was captive “then” not now.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Bob, that’s why its called the “Good News”. Your not seeing it that way as of late? Lent is the ideal time for perspective… “Risen”

 

[tonyrey]

Its not one without the other but both. Your case would be correct "spell, "before the resurrection, not since communion is re-established.

Its right to understand the Cross, and resolved through the resurrection. Had there been no resurrection to what avail was the Cross?

Its common for Christians to focus on the Cross, but you cannot understand the suffering without contemplation on the resurrection. It gives meaning to the suffering which is redemption. The Cross is the path to salvation, salvation is the particular and final judgment. Embracing one is indicative of the other. You are “saved” when you stand before the Throne of God, not before. There was “no-one” saved, before the resurrection, not one. Christ was the first Raised from the dead, Man was captive “then” not now.

Irrefutable!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Its not one without the other but both. Your case would be correct "spell, "before the resurrection, not since communion is re-established.

Its right to understand the Cross, and resolved through the resurrection. Had there been no resurrection to what avail was the Cross?

Its common for Christians to focus on the Cross, but you cannot understand the suffering without contemplation on the resurrection. It gives meaning to the suffering which is redemption. The Cross is the path to salvation, salvation is the particular and final judgment. Embracing one is indicative of the other. You are “saved” when you stand before the Throne of God, not before. There was “no-one” saved, before the resurrection, not one. Christ was the first Raised from the dead, Man was captive “then” not now.

Nowhere did I say that one ought to not have joy over the resurrection. But I contend that carrying the Cross is the key to salvation and that we should not be worldly.

The world being under the strong spell of Satan is not something we can prove one way or the other while living this miserable and corrupt life. But there are those who can see it, and those who cannot.

Only ‘dead’ people can see it! I was blessed by God in having been murdered in 1990; my entire belief system was shattered, and I was born anew. The very unpleasant state of cognitive dissonance keeps most people from seeing this part of reality.

LOVE!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I guess the only way to settle this question (which is never really going to be settled because there is only one way to settle it) is to compare the population of heaven with the population of hell. We can’t know how many people living today are going to hell. So we can’t really know whether Satan’s influence (I don’t like calling it a “spell”) is greater or lesser today than it was during the ancient Roman Empire or during the period of Nazi Germany.

Yes, evil is profound and pervasive today. But so is good. And God is great. We cannot say God has not woven a “spell” over the world that is going to make Satan’s “spell” in the end look fairly limp and futile even from Satan’s point of view. After all, isn’t Satan the greatest loser in all of Creation?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Nowhere did I say that one ought to not have joy over the resurrection. But I contend that carrying the Cross is the key to salvation and that we should not be worldly.

The world being under the strong spell of Satan is not something we can prove one way or the other while living this miserable and corrupt life. But there are those who can see it, and those who cannot.

Only ‘dead’ people can see it! I was blessed by God in having been murdered in 1990; my entire belief system was shattered, and I was born anew. The very unpleasant state of cognitive dissonance keeps most people from seeing this part of reality.

LOVE!

Oh I concede all this, listen its well known as the “Valley of the Shadow” and for good reason. That’s the walk “through” the fire Jesus reminds us of with the Cross and “then” when He shows His wounds “alive” to His disciples. And reminds us to follow Him. Whew, thank God. Hallelujah!

Take your purgatory on “Earth”. Getting the test first and lesson later was a bad thing?

So, on a even more serious note if that’s possible. What did you take that message from God to mean?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Would anybody dare say that we live in reality? Satan doesn’t distort it in the least?

This world is not only physical — so that the truth of G d’s creative power is not in evidence; it is also gross, in that the lie is held up as a truth.
m.chabad.org/dailystudy/tanya.asp?tdate=3/9/2014

[This world] is the lowest in degree; there is none lower than it in terms of concealment of His light and no world compares with it for doubled and redoubled darkness; nowhere is G-d’s light hidden as in this world.
m.chabad.org/dailystudy/tanya.asp?tdate=3/9/2014

 

[Robert_Sock]

I guess the only way to settle this question (which is never really going to be settled because there is only one way to settle it) is to compare the population of heaven with the population of hell. We can’t know how many people living today are going to hell. So we can’t really know whether Satan’s influence (I don’t like calling it a “spell”) is greater or lesser today than it was during the ancient Roman Empire or during the period of Nazi Germany.

Yes, evil is profound and pervasive today. But so is good. And God is great. We cannot say God has not woven a “spell” over the world that is going to make Satan’s “spell” in the end look fairly limp and futile even from Satan’s point of view. After all, isn’t Satan the greatest loser in all of Creation?

Who is to say that’s this spell was not present since the fall? For the righteous, God’s goodness will prevail.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Who is to say that’s this spell was not present since the fall? For the righteous, God’s goodness will prevail.

As I suggested earlier, that word “spell” has been bothering me from the start.

It suggests a hypnotic control that we cannot resist. I agree that the evil one is everywhere and seeks to dominate us all, but I think his power is severely curtailed by the grace of God and free will.

It’s only when we have become so evil that we don’t even sense how evil we have become that you can say anything like an evil spell has been woven over us.

Cafeteria Catholics are the most susceptible to an evil spell. The evil one wants them because they are Catholics, and they seem willing to negotiate a deal under the illusion that because they are Catholics they are safe from the evil one.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Who is to say that’s this spell was not present since the fall? For the righteous, God’s goodness will prevail.

The Church. All this is well covered as it is through the Saints. I don’t see where your thinking is off track, what I see is a good dose of fear based on a very real experience. This motivated and awoke your awareness to Christ. Rather awkward dilemma and responsibility isn’t it?

At first I counted myself among the blessed, and its true its a blessing. Nevertheless I also realized how very far I fell short and quickly realized there was absolutely no good reason why Christ would save me, but one. I’m of the opinion today the saving grace was the final conversation which pretty much was “Oh Jesus help me. I believe in you”…before I went Unconscious. Rather an awkward position when as a Catholic with pretty much a fringe protestant thinking, like I was one of the elect or something. Sure gave grace, pride and sin a whole new meaning. Left with vice and trauma and guilt there I was, visible, not hard to see it gives one a different perspective of reality. Rather disturbing to realize what a terrible sinner I had been and found myself begging God for forgiveness. No alternative but repentance and seeking a state of grace. There is nothing I can do without His grace except transgress His laws. Humbling as it is, it is the naked truth and one which you can’t deny. But you can rationalize still. But you know quickly when your doing this also. Sacred secret its called, and one needed to be shared for our own benefit and to realize many others out here were rained on also, its removes the level of unique which we make our own issues. this elevates them to excuse them since they are indeed personal.

God wants to make you a Saint. The path is long winding and unpaved. Imagine how terrified and traumatized the disciples were in the upper room. Prevail indeed. I think your being to hard on yourself with a self imposed state of mortification. There’s a balance and the beauty of living everyday in Gods creation.

Fragile state to say the least. trust in the Church they are well versed in this area.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Could we exist in a world with over 7 billion people without it crashing without a spell of some sort?

Our minds are free to roam, but only a short distance in any direction until the chain connected to our shackles loses its slack. Yes, in some ways our shackles prevent us from reaching higher-ordered meanings of love while in this world, but in other ways they protect us from falling, as innocent victims, into a devouring pit of evil. And so we are constrained due to our human nature that makes us vulnerable to the forces of evil. But in the end, an end that we will all experience soon enough, we will exit from our land of slavery by freely choosing between two gates: The Upper Gate of LOVE, or the Lower Gate of sin. We who struggle in this life to experience love will eagerly struggle to reach the light leading to the Upper Gate. Once beyond this gate our shackles will be completely removed and every trace of past pain and sin will vanish. Within a heavenly spirit of humor, everyone will then clearly see that the troubles and hardships experienced during this life were a part of a righteous sacrifice that allows for everlasting love, peace, and happiness. However, as if having been born into this world the first time was not traumatic enough, those who persistently tug in the direction of sin will eagerly seek the darkness of the Lower Gate that will lead to slavery anew. And so it will be with the evilhearted until they experience a state of existence with a heat hot enough to melt their heart of stone.

 

[mikekle]

After all, isn’t Satan the greatest loser in all of Creation?

No, far from it…I believe it was God that said satan was the most powerful and beautiful of ALL his creations, so it appears satan was number 2 (under God), in power and beauty, so he is definitely far from the greatest looser!

 

[GaryTaylor]

No, far from it…I believe it was God that said satan was the most powerful and beautiful of ALL his creations, so it appears satan was number 2 (under God), in power and beauty, so he is definitely far from the greatest looser!

Definitely had a special place.

Rev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

catholic.org/saints/angels/angelchoir.php

 

[mikekle]

Definitely had a special place.

Rev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

catholic.org/saints/angels/angelchoir.php

How could Satan be called ‘that old serpent’, this war supposedly happened right after the Satan and the angels were made…right? so, how could be called old?

Also, how could Satan be called the deceiver of the whole world, when humans had not yet been created? Satan had already fallen when he interacted with adam and eve in the garden, so this was long before he could have been the ‘deceiver of the whole world’.

 

[Robert_Sock]

How could Satan be called ‘that old serpent’, this war supposedly happened right after the Satan and the angels were made…right? so, how could be called old?

Also, how could Satan be called the deceiver of the whole world, when humans had not yet been created? Satan had already fallen when he interacted with adam and eve in the garden, so this was long before he could have been the ‘deceiver of the whole world’.

If Satan is the ‘deceiver of the whole world,’ what’s so hard to believe that he has our world under a ‘strong spell?’

Revelation 12:9 RSV
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If Satan is the ‘deceiver of the whole world,’ what’s so hard to believe that he has our world under a ‘strong spell?’

Revelation 12:9 RSV
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Nothing actually, its a reality. Has to be a villain in any good plot I suppose. And its not hard to see his domain in effect. Short term dilemma on the path to everlasting life. The beauty here is the living creation in which you are the crown of creation, a masterpiece, moment by moment wonder while living in it. Then if all are in agreement with this reality and our nature, then its also a personal perspective in viewing it. Beautiful thing, your sanctification in essence is saving souls and building the communion of Saints while leading to divinization. Same as St Paul and Augustine express. “The contest, or the victory over death, and those only being accepted are freed by the grace of God.”

So if the Lord gave you a heavy burden, that’s a blessing, no? So then, He would expect you to carry that heavy burden, as a gift, so He could give you a greater gift and blessing. By the heavy burden you cooperate in your own salvation by cooperating with Gods grace, sinners are saved and souls in the process are nourished. He only blesses His own gifts.

 

[VincentChristop]

Satan rules over this world. It says so in the bible.

You can easily see it. Think of all this money we borrow from federal reserve.

We can easily tax them, and stop poverty.

There is a hierarchy upon this world. And the average citizen is at the bottom of the food chain.

These higher powers(people influenced by satan) like to force morals upon us to bring us further from God. They continually do so.

The more you play into the devils hands the more successful you probably will be on this earth. That’s part of the reason why God says not to envy the rich because the rich do have it harder in a spiritual sense.

God let’s him have dominion over the earth because he knows good will always come out of it, and the righteous will prevail.

Everything works in synchronicity.

 

[GaryTaylor]

How could Satan be called ‘that old serpent’, this war supposedly happened right after the Satan and the angels were made…right? so, how could be called old?

Also, how could Satan be called the deceiver of the whole world, when humans had not yet been created? Satan had already fallen when he interacted with adam and eve in the garden, so this was long before he could have been the ‘deceiver of the whole world’.

Predestination for example here.

“When God undertook in the beginning to create the world, for nothing comes to mind without cause, each that would ever exist was presented to His mind. He saw what else would result when such a thing were produced; and if such a result were accomplished, what else would accompany: and what else would be the result even of this when it would come about. And so on to the conclusion of the sequence of events…He knew what would be, without being altogether of the cause of the coming to be of each of the things which He knew would happen.” Origen on Genesis

Or today

absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/duns-scotus/