Donald Jr. says covid deaths are "almost nothing"

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So if we were truly pro-life, we would ban all cars because of vehicular deaths? Require astronaut suits every year to prevent deaths from the flu?

The pro-life movement per se is about people killing innocent human beings with the sanction of law. It is not about preventing deaths from all causes, and to consider proportions is something we need to do, or we would all be required to stay in bed throughout our lives.

ETA: @LeafByNiggle
 
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Annie said:
So if we were truly pro-life, we would ban all cars because of vehicular deaths? Require astronaut suits every year to prevent deaths from the flu?

The pro-life movement per se is about people killing innocent human beings with the sanction of law. It is not about preventing deaths from all causes, and to consider proportions is something we need to do, or we would all be required to stay in bed throughout our lives.
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Well said, I have thought about that with cars and let’s say we compare it to bicycles. Most but not all cyclists wear helmets. It may depend on state laws. A good number of car accident deaths are from head injuries. Should we then, start requiring everyone in a car to use helmets? It would certainly cut down on deaths. I know this sounds like a tangent but I ride a bicycle a lot so it’s not really a tangent for me.

Pollution too, appears to kill a lot of people I think.

Anyway, those questioning the movement, the Vatican has largely set the guidelines here, even if they don’t use the term “pro-life”, they emphasize this as important and it is in the Magisterium.
 
It’s almost like results from direct action carry a larger moral weight but when something is completely out of anyone’s direct control it’s not morally equivalent.
 
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RhodesianSon said:
It’s almost like results from direct action carry a moral larger weight but when something is completely out of anyone’s direct control it’s not morally equivalent.
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The direct action of leaving out the feeding tube is comparable to the direct action of leaving your mask at home. It is certainly in your direct control.
 
A non sick person not wearing a mask is not the same as a medical professional leaving a feeding tube out.

Someone who knowingly has Covid (and right now I’m sitting with my wife who has tested positive and I’m waiting on my own results) going out and putting people at risk would be. Which is why we will be staying home for the next two weeks to do the responsible thing.

But to say a non sick person is a direct threat is ridiculous.
 
RhodesianSon said:
A non sick person not wearing a mask is not the same as a medical professional leaving a feeding tube out.
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The vast majority of virus spread is not from people who know they are sick. It is from asymptomatic individuals who are still infectious. The binary you describe (non-sick and known-sick) leaves out this major source of infection. It is they who are responsible for many deaths.

Best wishes and prayers for you and your wife. My son in half-way through chemo for stage 3 colon cancer. His immune system is very compromised right now. I really don’t want him getting covid on top of that.
 
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And I don’t dispute that. But someone cannot bear responsibility for something they don’t know. Just as we cannot incur guilt for sin unless it is made knowingly. That is why I hold the position that it is irresponsible to blame anyone for Covid deaths, unless someone knowingly has it and continues to act in a way that endangers people.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
Best wishes and prayers for you and your wife. My son in half-way through chemo for stage 3 colon cancer. His immune system is very compromised right now. I really don’t want him getting covid.
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Thank you. And I wish your son the best.
 
LeafByNiggle . . .
I find it odd that the same people that complain about the negligence that led to the death of one comatose patient are supporting negligence that has already led to the death of . . .
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Appalling. Who did that? (Because I have not seen that done here.)
 
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Annie said:
When you use your own personal experience to discount what others are asserting like that, it sounds like you are saying, well, I didn’t have any problem, so no problem exists.
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I didn’t discount other personal experiences. I will say, however, that no one in my community was forced to stay in their homes. They couldn’t go to malls, Wal-Mart, amusement parks, movie theaters… But they weren’t “detained.”

England and France have just entered their second lockdown. Please explain 1) why this choice was made, 2) why the majority of Brits and French agree with this measure, and 3) why Americans are somehow different in this respect.
 
RhodesianSon said:
That is why I hold the position that it is irresponsible to blame anyone for Covid deaths, unless someone knowingly has it and continues to act in a way that endangers people.
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How would it sound if someone said “We don’t know for sure that Terri Shaivo might not just wake up and start eating on her own.” One could make the argument that it is irresponsible to blame anyone for the death of Teri Shaivo, because they just didn’t know that she would not just wake up. I don’t find that argument very credible. And I don’t find the argument very credible that people who refuse to wear masks just “don’t know” that they save lives, when the fact has been publicized by public health officials for a long time. It is more like “they refuse to believe” that masks save lives, even though they have been told that they do.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
As with covid-19, the thing that eventually caused her [Terri Schaivo] to die was the denial of simple accommodations
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No, this was not a matter of “simple accomodations.” Terri Schaivo was denied food and water, which are required. She was deliberately starved and dehydrated to death.

I am not saying that people shouldn’t wear masks and all that.

Let’s look at what Donald Trump Jr actually said.

Well, if we can find a quote of what he said.

From USA Today:
Donald Trump Jr. wrongly stated that the rate of COVID-19 deaths have declined to “almost nothing.” (emphasis added)
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Here is CNBC:
saying that the number of new Covid deaths in the U.S. is “almost nothing,”
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See the difference?

Pointing out that there are currently far fewer deaths compared to the number of cases, and saying that the rate is almost nothing (and at a fraction of 1%, it is very low), is 1) different from saying the number of deaths, and 2) pointing out that a lot of progress has been made so we do not necessarily need some of the more draconian measures we took in the spring which has caused so many to lose their jobs and businesses.

There is a way that we look at the low numbers of deaths by auto accident and still allow people to drive around, and we sometimes need to draw back from our emotional reactions to make proportionate decisions. This is especially necessary for those who are in charge of more than just our health.
 
FrankFletcher said:
England and France have just entered their second lockdown. Please explain 1) why this choice was made, 2) why the majority of Brits and French agree with this measure, and 3) why Americans are somehow different in this respect.
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Why are you asking me to explain this to you?
 
Annie said:
There is a way that we look at the low numbers of deaths by auto accident and still allow people to drive around, and we sometimes need to draw back from our emotional reactions to make proportionate decisions.
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That is true. And those rational decisions are made all the time by our public health officials. What is emotional is the angry demonstrations against these measures we saw in Michigan.

But let’s look at cars, since you brought it up. At some point in time it was decided that cars should have seat belts and air bags. This was an added expense that continues to be paid by everyone who buys a car. Then it was decided that cars should have catalytic converters to reduce air pollution. This was also an added expense that continues to this day. We didn’t stop driving our cars, because that would have a terrible economic impact. But we did put up with some added cost to accomplish these goals.

This is how public health officials create policy for covid-19. They weigh all the factors - the economic cost, the lives at risk, the negative side-effects of lockdowns - and make decisions that attempt to balance all these concerns as well as they can. The measures that are now being promoted are not broad-based total lockdowns like they did in Wuhan, China for a while. They are things like social distancing, wearing masks, getting tested, doing contact tracing, and narrowly-targeted isolation of potentially infected people. These measures are comparable to requiring seat belts and air bags in cars, and the other mandated safety measures. They are an inconvenience, and in some cases a major inconvenience. Not everyone will agree that these covid decisions are being made properly, but that was and still is the case with seat belts in cars too. It is unfair to characterize public health officials as not caring a bit about the economy, or lost jobs, or anything like that. They do care. A lot. And they do their best to provide a balanced policy that best serves the public.
 
Okay, so we all open up the economy. Those who are vulnerable should sequester themselves. The healthy go on about their business.

What of those who are vulnerable but have chosen to not go to work out of their own safety? A lucky few can work remotely. What about those who can’t? Like Walmart employees? Can they be fired?

American workplaces are notorious for insisting that sick employees still go to work. If they don’t go to work even when sick, they get fired. Without a job, no healthcare. No healthcare, they die.

Americans are in no way as healthy as Swedes. Obesity is very common here and that is a major risk factor in terms of surviving COVID.

These are the issues that will have to be addressed.
 
So I can understand your anger. You’re free to choose not to, of course.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
They are things like social distancing, wearing masks, getting tested, doing contact tracing, and narrowly-targeted isolation of potentially infected people.
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The topic is Donald Trump Jr’s comment, not whether or not people should wear masks and under pain of what.

Do you have an actual quote of what he said? Because all I have been able to find are paraphrases, and they differ in how they are put, as I showed above.
 
Apparently we each seem to think we are involved in completely different conversations. I am not angry, I just have no idea what you are getting at.
 
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