Donald Trump Thread

[GaryTaylor]

So, are you against the NRA plan?

The NRA and the Democrats are the same basic plan. I don’t know that anyone is against it but the holdup is Washington and a vote at the moment.

Aside from the propaganda thats where we are at. What I’m saying which is quite evident with Mateen, we can put a million checks in place and if they are ignored we wind up with a Mateen situation anyway.

This guy never should have had a pistol permit and the rifle checks needs a more in depth research or the behavior is still overlooked. And all this ignores criminals who are buying illegal guns. What does a 10-minute check do to tell us about Mateens behavior? Its doesn’t even address the issue.

So we have few issues, one is the behavior and second is the intel check and also education. We would be taxing the federal government with massive research of which they can’t handle all the intel now, which is why people like Mateen slip through.

So mental health and actual intel research and education is clearly needed. Further we have to realize the mental health landscape is changing in america. Not because people are simply more crazy but because of education, attention to detail and various cultures growing like Islam which 50 years ago wasn’t a factor, or the border as another example. Its not a right or wrong its really understanding the dilemma.

The good news is all this already happened with immigrants coming to american, learning to get along and assimilating. Its a repeat process on a larger scale.

The Isis issue in america is only going to grow also as the CIA director just stated, so these mass killings will also continue and regardless of gun control.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

But how am I going to do a background check as a private seller? I don’t have access to NICS, and allowing access to it would mean that anyone could do a full criminal history check on someone just because they claim to be selling a gun. It would open up a lot of avenues for abuse of the system.

edit: NICS is also overburdened as it is and flooding them with new requests would lead to a lot of mistakes.

These are also practical problems that can be overcome with time. There could be a consumer-grade NICS portal that only gives a yes/no to the question of whether a gun sale to this person is allowed. That should cut down on abuse.

 

[styrgwillidar]

But how am I going to do a background check as a private seller? I don’t have access to NICS, and allowing access to it would mean that anyone could do a full criminal history check on someone just because they claim to be selling a gun. It would open up a lot of avenues for abuse of the system.

edit: NICS is also overburdened as it is and flooding them with new requests would lead to a lot of mistakes.

There actually have been some indications from ATF that they’re looking at making the NICS accessible to the public to verify private sales. We’ll see how it works out.

In my state, it’s irrelevant as all sales have to go through an FFL. The seller and buyer both have to go to an FFL holder who holds the firearm until the NICS check is done and a 10 day waiting period. State gets its tax money and fees for the background check and the FFL holder gets a fee. (Not sure how transferring an estates collection of guns works since there is a one gun a month limit. There may be an exemption for collections).

So, all good for those folk complying with and abiding by the law. Again, irrelevant for those folks willing to break the law.

Of course, in my state the terrorists won.

The reaction of my state legislature to the intimidation by terrorists has been blaming its own citizens and doing as much as they can to restrict their rights. So, the terrorists are succeeding in both intimidating the legislature and limiting our freedoms.

 

[grotto]

If someone found their name was on a “no fly” list and it is an error - they would immediately get that resolved. So if the “no fly” list is not a secret until somebody tries to buy an airline ticket that would be valuable. At present, if they never try to buy an airline ticket, nobody is the wiser. So … how about sharing the information with law enforcement and businesses to prevent them from obtaining a legally bought firearm. Is that too hard?
The money provided to fund the “no fly” status is not being used for everyone’s benefit the way it is now.

Its a good idea of Trump’s to enlist the help of the National Rifle Association to bring about this already in place tool to fight Islamic terrorism. This will not be able to completely stop this enemy but it will go a long way to help out. The cost of having this investigative list has already been covered - not much more to really use it. :newidea:

 

[Peebo]

Well Good luck with that ,
From what I heard ,the gun lobby has enormous power in the Republican Party,
Nothing will change , simply because there is no will for change ,
If A thousand people lost there lives in one dreadful event ,
Someone will say , well if there were more guns this could have been stopped .,
No matter what you say or do , nothing will change this tunnel vision approach

You’re right of course…you only have to read the comments by the pro NRA supporters here on CAF…now the NRA are the good guys because they “support” background checks of those on a terrorist watch list… of course these same people didn’t support background checks …on ANYTHING…when Obama proposed one after 20 innocent little school kids were slaughtered by a crazed gunman…now watch them try to justify their own guilt and shift the blame elsewhere…amazing how hypocricy works

 

[grotto]

Most Americans do not trust any proposals of Obama.

 

[styrgwillidar]

You’re right of course…you only have to read the comments by the pro NRA supporters here on CAF…now the NRA are the good guys because they “support” background checks of those on a terrorist watch list… of course these same people didn’t support background checks …on ANYTHING…when Obama proposed one after 20 innocent little school kids were slaughtered by a crazed gunman…now watch them try to justify their own guilt and shift the blame elsewhere…amazing how hypocricy works

Actually, the NRA has supported background checks and were the push to improve the NICS system a few years back to ensure it would be more timely, comprehensive and accurate.

The NRA has opposed a list being used which has no standardized criteria for folks being put on it, no requirement that they be notified they’ve been put on it, and no defined process for being removed if they figure out they are on it. It’s over 1 million people (ETA: the exact number is uncertain as that is classified, so that number is from a FOIA response several years ago) and has included serving congressmen like Ted Kennedy. Many of the folks on the list (or the parents of minors on the list) become very frustrated in trying to determine how to get names removed. Realize, often folks on the terror watch list aren’t on the no-fly list. But if you get the special screening every time you fly, or note the airline desk agent taking some extra steps with you then you’re probably on it.

 

[minion]

Without due process, huh…wonder how arbitrarily that can be applied.

And so, Trump, a man with no principals, or even common decency, flip flops and takes positions that changes with the wind to get more votes. And turns traitor on gun-owners. Surprise, surprise.

Buying another AR-15. Or maybe a semi-shotgun. Gotta pick up stuff before the ban or price spike…sigh, the price of simple self-defense.

 

[Peebo]

You would think that after the slaughter of 20 school children at Sandy Hook that it would have been a seminal event to shock this nation…not so for some…politics was to dominate…the Republican led congress was cautioned by their NRA masters that any one who supported Obamas gun control proposal would lose their rating with the NRA…or money would be funneled to their opponents…so instead of listening to the will of the American people…something like 90% who favor gun control…they ran with their collective tails between their legs at the bidding of their masters…and so the mass killings continued unabated…now…after the biggest mass killing in (recent) history…these same people and those who have supported them suddenly see a way to justify their own conscience by using the word “terrorist” in this latest attack and hopping once again on the NRA bandwagon as if they are oh so willing to bring about some form of gun control…it’s a bit late for another 49 innocent victims…and it’s a bit late for the tens of thousands of Americans killed by guns since Sandy Hook…no excuse can justify the NRA …the Republican party…nor those who supported them on their inaction…2nd amendment politics takes precedent over human lives

 

[ucfengr]

How does one loose freedom by being restticted to certain type and amount of guns?

Because the right to bear arms is a civil right equivalent to free speech and religious free exercise.

 

[ucfengr]

You would think that after the slaughter of 20 school children at Sandy Hook that it would have been a seminal event to shock this nation…not so for some…politics was to dominate…the Republican led congress was cautioned by their NRA masters that any one who supported Obamas gun control proposal would lose their rating with the NRA…or money would be funneled to their opponents…so instead of listening to the will of the American people…something like 90% who favor gun control…they ran with their collective tails between their legs at the bidding of their masters…and so the mass killings continued unabated…now…after the biggest mass killing in (recent) history…these same people and those who have supported them suddenly see a way to justify their own conscience by using the word “terrorist” in this latest attack and hopping once again on the NRA bandwagon as if they are oh so willing to bring about some form of gun control…it’s a bit late for another 49 innocent victims…and it’s a bit late for the tens of thousands of Americans killed by guns since Sandy Hook…no excuse can justify the NRA …the Republican party…nor those who supported them on their inaction…2nd amendment politics takes precedent over human lives

Would you describe opposition to restrictions on Muslim immigration “1st amendment politics taking precedent over human lives”?

 

[Peebo]

Would you describe opposition to restrictions on Muslim immigration “1st amendment politics taking precedent over human lives”?

We’re not debating that…start another thread if that’s where you want to go

 

[graciew]

Because the right to bear arms is a civil right equivalent to free speech and religious free exercise.

Thank you!
Believe me, it is hard to get how one fits in that my right ends where your right begins.
There is something very unlimited in all this that is hard to understand.
And in practice,you have it quite right,cause you sort of respect each other. But when you speak of your rights,it sounds more like " I say and do whatever I want unlimitedly and our Constitution protects whatever we think it says"
And that is not what one sees there,you do have quite a respectful limit between my right and your right. And if you think of it,you have always been inclusive in your rights.
But now,it sort of looks like the law of the jungle.
Maybe our Constitutions spoke about healthy boundaries so that we could peacefully live with each other and also as one after all…
Thank you! Hope I can convey the right message,because I do appreciate your place a lot.

 

[ucfengr]

We’re not debating that…start another thread if that’s where you want to go

If one civil right can be restricted to stop terrorist attacks, why can’t they all. Maybe it’s just me, but I think that I, as a law abiding gun owner, am far less dangerous to the public order than someone advocating violent jihad, as the Orlando shooter did, and even the Fort Hood shooter did.

Thank you!
Believe me, it is hard to get how one fits in that my right ends where your right begins.
There is something very unlimited in all this that is hard to understand.
And in practice,you have it quite right,cause you sort of respect each other. But when you speak of your rights,it sounds more like " I say and do whatever I want unlimitedly and our Constitution protects whatever we think it says"
And that is not what one sees there,you do have quite a respectful limit between my right and your right. And if you think of it,you have always been inclusive in your rights.
But now,it sort of looks like the law of the jungle.
Maybe our Constitutions spoke about healthy boundaries so that we could peacefully live with each other and also as one after all…
Thank you! Hope I can convey the right message,because I do appreciate your place a lot.

How does the mere fact of me owning a firearm impact your rights at all?

 

[Monkey1976]

How does the mere fact of me owning a firearm impact your rights at all?

Because the scary fully automatic ar-15 might run out your door, sprint down the street and unload 700 clips per second into a poor defenseless trans-apple pansexual schoolchild!

Seriously. That is the logic we’re dealing with. Guns are dangerous in and of themselves, and how dangerous they are depends entirely on their appearance, with the rate of fire going up in direct proportion to how scary they look.

 

[styrgwillidar]

If someone found their name was on a “no fly” list and it is an error - they would immediately get that resolved. So if the “no fly” list is not a secret until somebody tries to buy an airline ticket that would be valuable. At present, if they never try to buy an airline ticket, nobody is the wiser. So … how about sharing the information with law enforcement and businesses to prevent them from obtaining a legally bought firearm. Is that too hard?
The money provided to fund the “no fly” status is not being used for everyone’s benefit the way it is now.

Its a good idea of Trump’s to enlist the help of the National Rifle Association to bring about this already in place tool to fight Islamic terrorism. This will not be able to completely stop this enemy but it will go a long way to help out. The cost of having this investigative list has already been covered - not much more to really use it. :newidea:

Just to be clear- there are two lists, the terror watch list and the no-fly list. The terror list is in excess of a million people. The no-fly list is much smaller. The folks on the terror watch list that aren’t on the no-fly list can buy airline tickets and travel-- they may only notice a bit more screening. There is no way to know if you’re on the terror watch list, as I understand it you can even buy a firearm – but the FBI will receive a notification you did.

 

[graciew]

If one civil right can be restricted to stop terrorist attacks, why can’t they all. Maybe it’s just me, but I think that I, as a law abiding gun owner, am far less dangerous to the public order than someone advocating violent jihad, as the Orlando shooter did, and even the Fort Hood shooter did.

How does the mere fact of me owning a firearm impact your rights at all?

Think of speed limit…and traffic lights. Does that comparison make sense perhaps? There are drivers,there are pedestrians…
You do not give a licence to drive to whoever and whatever,and yes,you have a right to drive,but I have a right to cross the street safely. And we might continue to talk about how we can safely drive and safely walk…

 

[styrgwillidar]

You would think that after the slaughter of 20 school children at Sandy Hook that it would have been a seminal event to shock this nation…not so for some…politics was to dominate…the Republican led congress was cautioned by their NRA masters that any one who supported Obamas gun control proposal would lose their rating with the NRA…or money would be funneled to their opponents…so instead of listening to the will of the American people…something like 90% who favor gun control…they ran with their collective tails between their legs at the bidding of their masters…and so the mass killings continued unabated…now…after the biggest mass killing in (recent) history…these same people and those who have supported them suddenly see a way to justify their own conscience by using the word “terrorist” in this latest attack and hopping once again on the NRA bandwagon as if they are oh so willing to bring about some form of gun control…it’s a bit late for another 49 innocent victims…and it’s a bit late for the tens of thousands of Americans killed by guns since Sandy Hook…no excuse can justify the NRA …the Republican party…nor those who supported them on their inaction…2nd amendment politics takes precedent over human lives

Yeah, and then you have to balance that with the thousands saved from death or serious injury by firearms.

The opposite side of the coin are the legislatures like California which use the terrorist attacks as opportunities to attack the civil rights of its citizens. A win for the terrorists.

The NRA is pretty much a single issue ACLU (which is the reason the ACLU avoids getting in 2A cases, why spend resources on issues another group has covered). The NRA is operating like any other group and its only true power is in the fact that millions of Americans support gun rights and limitations on the government. In fact, a lot of gun owners see the NRA as too moderate and willing to compromise on restrictions as that has been their history in the past. They didn’t believe in the slippery slope idea, more recently they’ve been stronger in opposing limitations.

 

[ucfengr]

Think of speed limit…and traffic lights. Does that comparison make sense perhaps? There are drivers,there are pedestrians…

Car makers are allowed to sell cars that are capable of far exceeding any posted speed limit.

 

[Bill_Martin]

Think of speed limit…and traffic lights. Does that comparison make sense perhaps? There are drivers,there are pedestrians…
You do not give a licence to drive to whoever and whatever,and yes,you have a right to drive,but I have a right to cross the street safely. And we might continue to talk about how we can safely drive and safely walk…

Traffic laws are regulations of behaviors. Ownership of an object is not a behavior. You are allowed to own a car that can do 240 mph. You just can’t actually drive at that speed on a public road. Nobody is hurt by owning something alone and nobody can ever be hurt by it. It’s actions that matter.