Don't Hate Me. I Am Going To A SSPX This Sunday

[laudamus_te]

Can. 290 Sacred ordination once validly received never becomes invalid. A cleric, however, loses the clerical state:

He is not allowed to practice, but he is still a Priest. He is still able to perfrom the Sacrifice validly, but it would be illicit

I understand that. My response has to do with this statement by JReducation:

The most we can do is send someone to a place where they won’t hurt anyone and can get help.

That is not true, they can be convicted.

 

[JReducation]

I believe you are fooling yourself if you think this is an “American problem.”

I was responding to Piouswoman’s statement that the Vatican had not come their knees on this issue. When presented with this option, Cardinal Ratzinger responded that this was an American problem not a problem of the Universal Church and that he left it in the hands of the American Bishops to deal with. He also said that the press had a tendency to sensationalize everything regarding the Catholic Church and that not everything they printed about the Church could be believed before it was investigated.

“So called victims”?! You sound dangerously as though you are defending the actions of the perverted priests. What you say here is extremely troubling.

Please allow me to clarify. I’m not defending the actions of anyone who behaves in such a way, especially those in whom society puts trust to behave morally and legally. My point was in another direction. Many people, especially lawyers have taken advantage of this situation to make a great deal of money. If we read some of the stories there were older adolescents involved. Having been around adolescents all of my life I believe that most know when something is dangerous or inappropriate, such as sexual engagement with another person. I also believe that there were cases where these youngsters were not forced into sexual activity with these priests. They may have been seduced, which in and of itself is immoral and illegal, but they consented to the situation and years later capitalized on something that they had consented to. I’m not speaking about younger children. I’m speaking about youth between 16 and 17 years of age. In our state we have had two cases (maybe more) of high school students who voluntarily engaged in sexual activities with teachers. The media did not go after them like sharks after blood.

In addition, I believe that lawyers took advantage that these older children were minors and did not factor in consent. I understand that they have no legal authority to give such consent. However, I also know that our society often condones sexual activity between adolescents as a normal part of adolescence. In other words, we are selective In this regard, there was a loss of objectivity on the part of the press. Finally, we rarely heard of the cases that were brought to trial and were never proven to be true. I hope this is clearer. I do not defend promiscuity or child abuse of any kind. I do believe that there was an abuse on the part of the media, because these were priests.

Are you just making this stuff up? Priests have been defrocked and convicted and are serving jail time. They cannot hide behind their collar.

Yes there are. However, to defrock does not mean that a man is no longer a priest. It means that he may no longer exercise his priestly office. According the the theology of the sacraments, a priest is a priest forever, regardless of his sin. Even a defrocked priest can illicitly, but validly celebrate the sacraments. If he does, he incurs excommunication, but the sacrament remains valid, because his priesthood cannot be taken away.

When a man is ordained a deacon, priest or bishop there is an onthological change that cannot be undone, even by the Church. This is also the case for religious who take solemn vows. They can be exclaustrated, put into prison and even burnt at the stake, but their vows cannot be undone. The effects of the Sacrament of Holy Orders are the same as those of Baptism. One baptized, even if you convert to Islam, you are still a Christian. You incur excommunication, but you do not lose the seal of the Holy Spirit. This is the case with members of the clergy. A priest is a priest forever, regardless of his sin or his relationship with the Church.

Take for example Orthodox priests. They were excommunicated until Paul VI lifted the excommunication. But their sacrament of Holy Orders was valid and they are considered priest with apostolic succession. The same applies to a priest who commits a grave sin, such as child abuse or who breaks the law and commits a felony. This is Church teaching.

1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or “seal” by which the Christian shares in Christ’s priesthood and is made a member of the Church according to different states and functions. This configuration to Christ and to the Church, brought about by the Spirit, is indelible, it remains for ever in the Christian (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

The sacrament cannot be undone and remains forever with the person who receives it.

1582 As in the case of Baptism and Confirmation this share in Christ’s office is granted once for all. The sacrament of Holy Orders, like the other two, confers an indelible spiritual character and cannot be repeated or conferred temporarily. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

The sacrament and its effects are indelible, cannot be voided and cannot be conferred temporarily, meaning for a period of time or until you commit a grave sin. These sacraments are conferred for life, regardless of whether you’re a saint or sinner.

This why many bishops were in a conundrum. Because they couldn’t take away the priesthood from the individuals. They were very embarrassed.

Did they have an obligation to get these men help? Absolutely. Should they have reported to and been honest with civil authorities? Absolutely.

They made a grave administrative error. They mismanaged the situation, until John Paul II called them to task and told them to fix it. Man bishops have made very serious and humble attempts to do just that. One of them is Cardinal Sean O’Malley, OFM Cap, of Boston.

JR

 

[JReducation]

I understand that. My response has to do with this statement by JReducation:

That is not true, they can be convicted.

If you look again at what I said, I did say that the bishops should have done both, report to the authorities and send the individuals to a place where they could get help. I do not agree with the way that they managed the situation.

 

[JReducation]

Sir:

Your post was so fraught with error and disinformation, that I hardly know where to begin. Frankly, it appears to me that what you wrote was based on what you want to believe rather than on the truth. For starters, let me address the fact that you seem to have no sympathy for the innocent victims, because it may tarnish that blindingly obedient idea that the church hierarchy can do no wrong, as exhibited here:

I never said that. I said that the bishops mismanaged the situation. I have devoted my entire life to serving children and their families. That has been my ministry in three dioceses. I love children and want see them safe.

"We must also keep in mind, that some of these so called victims were minors, but many were teens. When a teen consents to sex with another teen, he or she is not a victim. He’s normal, according American and European social norms. When it involves a person over 18, suddenly he’s a martyr. This is an arbitrary age that the law has set for the age of majority. Many of the so called victims were willing participants, even thoug they were under 18. Had the been involved with another teen, everyone would have looked away and said, “It’s normal teen behaviour.”

I was not speaking for me or the Church. I was sharing how our society looks at sexually active adolescents.

And furthermore, to a Catholic, it is never “normal teen behaviour” to engage in sexual relations.

I agree.

Thank you

 

[MrS]

so now can we get back on topic or will the p/w succeed in getting this thread closed.

.

 

[JReducation]

Maybe we can all learn from our Holy Father St. Francis of Assisi who wrote in his rule:

“If you meet and angel and the most corrupt and sinful of priests, you must first kiss the hands of the priest, before you greet the angel, for only through him can you receive the Holy Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ and only through him do we have the physical presence of our Lord among us, then greet the angel with proper reverence.”

This was written by the man whom the Church calls The Mirror of Perfection. It takes a great deal of charity, humility and faith to practice this mandate, virtue similar to that of Christ.

JR

 

[bear06]

so now can we get back on topic or will the p/w succeed in getting this thread closed.

.

The topic’s rather done and over. Sunday has passed and there’s not need to hate the OP.

 

[Duke_of_Mantua]

The topic’s rather done and over. Sunday has passed and there’s not need to hate the OP.

Not so fast, I can’t find an EF for Maundy Thursday and St. John Cantius is offering an OF in Latin. This is beginning to try my patience.

 

[dyspepsic]

This is beginning to try my patience.

And ours too!

 

[Sure]

Not so fast, I can’t find an EF for Maundy Thursday and St. John Cantius is offering an OF in Latin. This is beginning to try my patience.

Have you been to the St. John Cantius ordinary form Masses?

Also, I guarantee the Institute of Christ the King will be doing a Holy Thursday EF Mass…Yep, just checked…it’s at 7pm.

Must I plan ALL your Masses for you???

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Maybe he is just looking for an excuse to go to SSPX.

 

[bear06]

Maybe he is just looking for an excuse to go to SSPX.

But since we have no proof of that, it might be best to think it a possiblity than to say it is. What’s the point?

Again, Sure came to the rescue. Where there’s a will there’s a way! Sure, maybe you’d want to give Duke all of your links to the EF in the vicinity so he can look them up himself?!

 

[Sure]

Duke lives in the Chicago area which no has, like 20 parishes that offer the EF mass. No matter where you live you’re no farther than 20 minutes from a parish offering one.

I found the info here: web2.iadfw.net/~carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

I hope that doesn’t include schismatic churches, but I don’t think it does.

 

[CradleCath]

Please allow me to clarify. I’m not defending the actions of anyone who behaves in such a way, especially those in whom society puts trust to behave morally and legally. My point was in another direction. Many people, especially lawyers have taken advantage of this situation to make a great deal of money. If we read some of the stories there were older adolescents involved. Having been around adolescents all of my life I believe that most know when something is dangerous or inappropriate, such as sexual engagement with another person. I also believe that there were cases where these youngsters were not forced into sexual activity with these priests. They may have been seduced, which in and of itself is immoral and illegal, but they consented to the situation and years later capitalized on something that they had consented to. I’m not speaking about younger children. I’m speaking about youth between 16 and 17 years of age. In our state we have had two cases (maybe more) of high school students who voluntarily engaged in sexual activities with teachers. The media did not go after them like sharks after blood.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

But since we have no proof of that, it might be best to think it a possiblity than to say it is. What’s the point?

Again, Sure came to the rescue. Where there’s a will there’s a way! Sure, maybe you’d want to give Duke all of your links to the EF in the vicinity so he can look them up himself?!

funny

OP could find some masses (all those that did not fit his schedule) the first go round – so he had the ability to find local EF masses in several areas…

 

[Sure]

funny

OP could find some masses (all those that did not fit his schedule) the first go round – so he had the ability to find local EF masses in several areas…

He found a few the first time. But not nearly all the available Masses.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

He found a few the first time. But not nearly all the available Masses.

skills are skills

find some - find more

but it is queer how all those he found just happened to not suit him time wise

 

[Sure]

skills are skills

find some - find more

but it is queer how all those he found just happened to not suit him time wise

It’s probably best not to read into it. Let’s just assume he’s a guy trying to do the right thing.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

It’s probably best not to read into it. Let’s just assume he’s a guy trying to do the right thing.

looking at the posts/protests …

 

[laudamus_te]

I agree with some of the points you made, but anyone who denies the part that homosexuality played in this horrid abuse scandal…well, it’s pretty much impossible to discuss this issue with them.

Agreed. The abuse scandal in the Church is not a pedophaelia issue as the gay agenda would like us to believe. It is a homosexual issue.

JReducation:

I also believe that there were cases where these youngsters were not forced into sexual activity with these priests. They may have been seduced, which in and of itself is immoral and illegal, but they consented to the situation and years later capitalized on something that they had consented to. I’m not speaking about younger children. I’m speaking about youth between 16 and 17 years of age.

This attitude is very troubling. It makes no difference what the age of the victims were, they are still young and impressionable and were taken advantage of. You cannot deny that a priest who seduces a teenager is abusing his position of authority. It matters not whether the youth “consented.” A child of that age is easily confused, and then if you factor in normal issues of insecurity and need for acceptance they are easy prey. It is always wrong to downplay the crime simply because a victim may have been older or “consenting.” Please reconsider your thinking about this.