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jmcrae
Guest
And it’s “truly Roman” because it has absolutely no connection nor relationship whatsoever with Rome?
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D
dyspepsic
Guest
If you had a home that was 20 years old, and one that was a 100, which would you tear down, or sell off? These very old churches generally have structural damage, especially in California, or are in the need of a major overhaul. Aren’t there some laymen on the architecture committee?
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dyspepsic
Guest
tell me more, tell me more. Names, times, whatever. And the apostacy? who convicted them of that?
B
bear06
Guest
The West Coast is a little different then most places. We actually still have many mission style churches here. That said, most of our churches, unlike the churches on the East Coast were built during the Frank Lloyd Wright era. It’s quite unfortunate for us because that style of architecure was very popular but awfully ugly in my opinion. Our older churches (at least here in Northern California) have more of a European influence than Spanish. Now the funny thing is that one of the newest churches in our diocese (there’s not too many of them) actually has gone to the mission style of achitecture.
The joke of the whole thing with Mahoney is that Mahoney didn’t even like the “cathedral” after it was done. Too bad for him he’s stuck with that ugly legacy.
A
ASimpleSinner
Guest
Such confidence is hard to answer to on the face of it - I mean the way it is presented, a REAL Catholic would have to agree…
Again PW, what I fould initially problematic wasn’t your truths, but your presentation. It isn’t your blunt honesty, but your failure to offer argument pro traditio that is problematic. Telling someone “go read some more” isn’t an argument. Your interlocutors could absolutely do the same. Then what do you have? Two or more parties NOT making a case, just telling other people they haven’t read enough.
“The SSPX is treated with hatred and venom, lies and untruths about them are the norm.” I am sorry, but I have gone round for round for round with apologists for Lefevrism on here whose best response to direct point blank questions to the effect of “did he or did he not disobey a DIRECT order from the Pope of Rome” and their response has been as often as not to implicity or explicity redirect the argument toward lamentable and regrettable abuses as though to say the ends justified the means.
No matter how regrettable or lamentable some of the decisions or abuses have been, there is no denying that a direct order was disobeyed, and an alternative ecclesial structure outside of the Catholic Church was erected without reference or permission to the Holy See or the local ordinaries. Very uncatholic.
It is a legitimate and laudible aspiration to worship according to the older standards. And for just that purpose, the Ecclesia Dei indults were set up, then the FSSP was formed by a group in the wake of the schism to be in compliance with canonical norms (which by the point of 1988, the SSPX had ceased to be anyway) and now the Motu proprio is in effect. All of this has been put into place for the benifit of the priestly, religious and laity who adhere to these forms of worship and piety within the context of full communion with the Holy See. In the mean time, +Williams & company have continued to rail against Rome and set up chapels without permission (sometimes in direct opposition to) the local ordinaries.
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piouswoman
Guest
What are you implying? This post may illustrate perfectly the animosity and biased dislike, if not hatred, of the SSPX.And it’s “truly Roman” because it has absolutely no connection nor relationship whatsoever with Rome?
I think I will just start pointing out whenever such a statement is made.
B
bear06
Guest
Uh, maybe that’s because, again you don’t have the proper definition of apostate. Usually when they’ve totall repudiated the Catholic Faith (which is the definition of apostate before or after Vatican II and not matter which catechism you are using) they are removed from their priestly duties.
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JReducation
Guest
With all due respect, I fail to follow how your statement below responds to the original OP.
We must also keep in mind, that some of these so called victims were minors, but many were teens. When a teen consents to sex with another teen, he or she is not a victim. He’s normal, according American and European social norms. When it involves a person over 18, suddenly he’s a martyr. This is an arbitrary age that the law has set for the age of majority. Many of the so called victims were willing participants, even thoug they were under 18. Had the been involved with another teen, everyone would have looked away and said, “It’s normal teen behaviour.”
Was the problem mishandled? YES! It was not mishandled due to a lack of faith, but because of embarrassment. Granted, embarrassment is not a good enough reason not to help a priest who is sick. Yes sick, peodophelia is a mental illness. These priests should have been taken out of circulation and put into some sort of mental health program. The authorities should have been notified as well. This is called mismanagement, not apostacy.
As to the priests who molested the children, you have to dominant opinions in the United States. The legal system says this is a crime. The Mental Health System says this is an illness. Bishops are neither lawyers nor psychiatrists, for the most part. When the legal system and the mental health community agree, maybe the Church will also have a clearer idea on what to do. They should have consulted both, mental health professionals and he legal system. They failed to do this, but this is not a apostocy or heresy.
Also, the Sacraments overrule any civil law in the world. A deacon, priest, bishop or religious in solemn vows cannot be undone. They are clerics or religious or both forever, not matter what their crime or their sin. This is an essential part of our faith. We cannot change the theology of Holy Orders or the theology of Solemn Vows. The most we can do is send someone to a place where they won’t hurt anyone and can get help.
An ordained cleric is a cleric forever and a religious in solemn vows is a religious forever. The most that can happen is that the Church can grant a dispensation from their obligations ONLY if the individual requests it. It cannot impose a dispensation. Even Luther died a priest, despite being a heretic. He also died an Augustinian, since he was one and they are Brothers in solemn vows. He never requested a dispensation from either Holy Orders or Solemn Vows. He died as he was, even though he was excommunicated.
I suggest that you study up on Holy Orders and Solemn Vows before you make demands of the Church that go against Holy Tradition.
JR
Many of these buildings are also very costly to maintain. Some dioceses will keep the more important ones and the ones in better condition.
I can’t speak about your diocese, but mine has never asked us for a cent to pay for this.
This is not a universal sin. This was an American problem. Many American Bishops have very humbly asked for forgiveness and have put all kinds of services and ministries in place to help the victims.
We must also keep in mind, that some of these so called victims were minors, but many were teens. When a teen consents to sex with another teen, he or she is not a victim. He’s normal, according American and European social norms. When it involves a person over 18, suddenly he’s a martyr. This is an arbitrary age that the law has set for the age of majority. Many of the so called victims were willing participants, even thoug they were under 18. Had the been involved with another teen, everyone would have looked away and said, “It’s normal teen behaviour.”
Who said these bishops were apostate? Did you? Did I? Do we have that authority?
Was the problem mishandled? YES! It was not mishandled due to a lack of faith, but because of embarrassment. Granted, embarrassment is not a good enough reason not to help a priest who is sick. Yes sick, peodophelia is a mental illness. These priests should have been taken out of circulation and put into some sort of mental health program. The authorities should have been notified as well. This is called mismanagement, not apostacy.
According to US law, the bishops were not criminal and did not break any laws. No charges were brought against them, except civil suits.
As to the priests who molested the children, you have to dominant opinions in the United States. The legal system says this is a crime. The Mental Health System says this is an illness. Bishops are neither lawyers nor psychiatrists, for the most part. When the legal system and the mental health community agree, maybe the Church will also have a clearer idea on what to do. They should have consulted both, mental health professionals and he legal system. They failed to do this, but this is not a apostocy or heresy.
Also, the Sacraments overrule any civil law in the world. A deacon, priest, bishop or religious in solemn vows cannot be undone. They are clerics or religious or both forever, not matter what their crime or their sin. This is an essential part of our faith. We cannot change the theology of Holy Orders or the theology of Solemn Vows. The most we can do is send someone to a place where they won’t hurt anyone and can get help.
The observance of the theology on Holy Orders and Solemn Vows ae part of our true doctrine and have been since the beginning of the Church.
An ordained cleric is a cleric forever and a religious in solemn vows is a religious forever. The most that can happen is that the Church can grant a dispensation from their obligations ONLY if the individual requests it. It cannot impose a dispensation. Even Luther died a priest, despite being a heretic. He also died an Augustinian, since he was one and they are Brothers in solemn vows. He never requested a dispensation from either Holy Orders or Solemn Vows. He died as he was, even though he was excommunicated.
I suggest that you study up on Holy Orders and Solemn Vows before you make demands of the Church that go against Holy Tradition.
JR
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piouswoman
Guest
Yet there are buildings and churches dating back hundreds of years in Europe. Any building can be retrofitted and restored if the desire is there. I am an eyewitness to it in California. Many of the missions have been restored, originally of adobe, not very strong or durable material. The church couldn’t confiscate and sell those off, they are gold mines for tourism.
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jmcrae
Guest
I’m not “implying” anything; I’m speaking quite plainly. The SSPX is not in union with Rome. That’s a fact, ma’am.
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dyspepsic
Guest
And I have been in mission churches south of LA (I think it is San Juan Capistrano), which is in horrible shape, and I was afraid to go inside. Adobe brick, few supports…it’s about to down on their heads.
Old mission churches goldmines for tourism?..they don’t charge money to go into them. I don’t know where they would get the money from tourism.
The old churches in Europe…Well, Notre Dame has the income to keep it in shape, but some of the older churches are falling into disrepair, and they dont have the funds.
New doesn’t always mean meaningful, nor does old mean meaningful.
Now tell me who these apostate bishops are?
C
CradleCath
Guest
WHOA!! I too have been very angry at the Pederasts & those who enabled them because of the horrible amount of harm they have caused to the young people they abused, to themselves & to my beloved Church.
However, I considered it my duty to work through my anger, to forgive as Christ taught us to forgive. To withold money as a punishment is downright wrong. I do hope you are donating, not to pederasty payments…but to the heat bills, the parish school (if any), the RICA program, the new roof/air conditioning system/sidewalk repair, or any of the ever necessary repairs & expenses of your parish. Our Church is in a terrible financial crunch right now & punishing the many for the actions of a few is sinful. You can give money or your time & talents or both, but one must give.
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bear06
Guest
BTW, the missions didn’t suddenly fall into disrepair after VII. They were long crumbly before that (by more than 100 years!). You’re talking about a complete rebuild in most cases.
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SenorSalsa
Guest
while i still disagree with you on ecumenicism, at least i agree with you here.
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piouswoman
Guest
If this post wasn’t so pathetic and ignorant in the facts and in the truth, I would laugh…it hardly merits an answer and is misguided and full of stupidity. This sounds like an apologists answer for the homosexual agenda. How sad.With all due respect, I fail to follow how your statement below responds to the original OP.
Many of these buildings are also very costly to maintain. Some dioceses will keep the more important ones and the ones in better condition.
I can’t speak about your diocese, but mine has never asked us for a cent to pay for this.
This is not a universal sin. This was an American problem. Many American Bishops have very humbly asked for forgiveness and have put all kinds of services and ministries in place to help the victims.
We must also keep in mind, that some of these so called victims were minors, but many were teens. When a teen consents to sex with another teen, he or she is not a victim. He’s normal, according American and European social norms. When it involves a person over 18, suddenly he’s a martyr. This is an arbitrary age that the law has set for the age of majority. Many of the so called victims were willing participants, even thoug they were under 18. Had the been involved with another teen, everyone would have looked away and said, “It’s normal teen behaviour.”
Who said these bishops were apostate? Did you? Did I? Do we have that authority?
Was the problem mishandled? YES! It was not mishandled due to a lack of faith, but because of embarrassment. Granted, embarrassment is not a good enough reason not to help a priest who is sick. Yes sick, peodophelia is a mental illness. These priests should have been taken out of circulation and put into some sort of mental health program. The authorities should have been notified as well. This is called mismanagement, not apostacy.
According to US law, the bishops were not criminal and did not break any laws. No charges were brought against them, except civil suits.
As to the priests who molested the children, you have to dominant opinions in the United States. The legal system says this is a crime. The Mental Health System says this is an illness. Bishops are neither lawyers nor psychiatrists, for the most part. When the legal system and the mental health community agree, maybe the Church will also have a clearer idea on what to do. They should have consulted both, mental health professionals and he legal system. They failed to do this, but this is not a apostocy or heresy.
Also, the Sacraments overrule any civil law in the world. A deacon, priest, bishop or religious in solemn vows cannot be undone. They are clerics or religious or both forever, not matter what their crime or their sin. This is an essential part of our faith. We cannot change the theology of Holy Orders or the theology of Solemn Vows. The most we can do is send someone to a place where they won’t hurt anyone and can get help.
The observance of the theology on Holy Orders and Solemn Vows ae part of our true doctrine and have been since the beginning of the Church.
An ordained cleric is a cleric forever and a religious in solemn vows is a religious forever. The most that can happen is that the Church can grant a dispensation from their obligations ONLY if the individual requests it. It cannot impose a dispensation. Even Luther died a priest, despite being a heretic. He also died an Augustinian, since he was one and they are Brothers in solemn vows. He never requested a dispensation from either Holy Orders or Solemn Vows. He died as he was, even though he was excommunicated.
I suggest that you study up on Holy Orders and Solemn Vows before you make demands of the Church that go against Holy Tradition.
JR
L
laudamus_te
Guest
I believe you are fooling yourself if you think this is an “American problem.”
“So called victims”?! You sound dangerously as though you are defending the actions of the perverted priests. What you say here is extremely troubling.
Are you just making this stuff up? Priests have been defrocked and convicted and are serving jail time. They cannot hide behind their collar.
J
JReducation
Guest
Madam:
If you disagree with my post, you have the freedom to do so. We live in a free society. However, you may not insult my ideas or my person. This is a violation of charity, justice and forum rules.
I would gladly respond to any questions that you have regarding my points, but I will not belittle myself to engage in a contest of insults with anyone.
Either you respond to me as an intelligent and polite human being or our discussion is over.
Thank you.
JR
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SenorSalsa
Guest
Can. 290 Sacred ordination once validly received never becomes invalid. A cleric, however, loses the clerical state:
He is not allowed to practice, but he is still a Priest. He is still able to perfrom the Sacrifice validly, but it would be illicit
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piouswoman
Guest
Not only that…were St. Thomas Becket alive today, he would of had them all strung up and severely punished…What have any of our bishops or the pope for that matter, done about it?
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piouswoman
Guest
Sir:
Your post was so fraught with error and disinformation, that I hardly know where to begin. Frankly, it appears to me that what you wrote was based on what you want to believe rather than on the truth. For starters, let me address the fact that you seem to have no sympathy for the innocent victims, because it may tarnish that blindingly obedient idea that the church hierarchy can do no wrong, as exhibited here:
"We must also keep in mind, that some of these so called victims were minors, but many were teens. When a teen consents to sex with another teen, he or she is not a victim. He’s normal, according American and European social norms. When it involves a person over 18, suddenly he’s a martyr. This is an arbitrary age that the law has set for the age of majority. Many of the so called victims were willing participants, even thoug they were under 18. Had the been involved with another teen, everyone would have looked away and said, “It’s normal teen behaviour.”
And furthermore, to a Catholic, it is never “normal teen behaviour” to engage in sexual relations.
Thank you
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