Don't Hate Me. I Am Going To A SSPX This Sunday

[ProVobis]

Ohh the whole Vatican LIED to us?? DECEIVED us??

Don’t think so.

Abrogated or not a new ordinary form to be used by the whole Church was moved in and the TLM was moved out.

That’s not what SP said. I suggest you reread it.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Seeing that most were calling the Old Latin Mass abrogated, I would say the acceptance of the Novus Ordo was based on false pretenses. However, I am NOT saying it isn’t valid or that you don’t have a perfect right to it. But whether your faith has been false or not, no one but you and God can be the final judge of that.

If no one lied to us then how could acceptance of a new OF be ‘based on false pretenses’?

 

[ProVobis]

I haven’t read everything from the Traditio site, but they strike me from what they write as being schismatic.

Traditio is a very anti-SSPX site as well but if you can prove their documents are in error, then I’ll be more than happy to read your versions. Having listened to 40 years of liberal “Latin Mass was abrogated” stuff doesn’t exactly give the pro-Novus Ordo folks too much credibility either.

 

[Ghoti]

Equally true of progressives.

Bravo. :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Even the first Pope was unfaithful to his Magisterium three times in one night.

 

[Ghoti]

Traditio is a very anti-SSPX site as well but if you can prove their documents are in error, then I’ll be more than happy to read your versions. Having listened to 40 years of liberal “Latin Mass was abrogated” stuff doesn’t exactly give the pro-Novus Ordo folks too much credibility either.

Again, what I read from the site was not nearly exhaustive (but indeed exhausting!)

I am not saying that their documents are in error,I just question the source because of their particular bias. I would say the same if it came from some radical leftie9 take deep breath) happy clappy Kumbaya group. The documents could be right – even a broken clock is perfectly accutae twice a day – I’m just saying that when retrieving info from any source, the particular outlook of that source may make the veracity of the info suspect, or at least that it might be provided spin-free.

The story goes that during the Cold War, some automotive group in Europe compared the Lada with a comparable American car. The US car beat the Soviet car handily in all areas – safety, reliability, comfort, durability, quality, etc.

It was then truthfully reported in Pravda that, in an international study, the Lada came second in overall quality, while the US car came second-last.

All I’m saying is, consider your source.

As for the Latin mass being abrogated, I’m not really sure what that means. I know for the longest time it was not offered, and that it seems to have been suppressed, although by the Pope, one of the Congregations, or a Bishops’ Conference (like the CCCB), I don’t know. But I do know that I was taught in school that even at Vatican II the Latin Mass and Gregorian Chant were to have “pride of place”. So I don;'t know if it was abrogated de hure or de facto – in the latter case by ingnoring it. I know I’m glad it’s (coming) back, as I want to go.

And for any NO-types who think that the Latin Mass is some relic best forgotten, I feel the same way as I do about the traditionalists who say the NO is invalid. Aside from any abuses of either form – both EF and OF are valid, so in my mind to denigrate either form is to denigrate Him Who makes Himself present.

 

[ProVobis]

All I’m saying is, consider your source.

Precisely.

 

[stmaria]

The Pope will be visiting the U.S. very soon. I assume that he will use the N.O. form, and that will put to rest all the claims of the TLM crowd.

When he says Mass in the U.S.he will say the OF with plenty of Latin, a language that you can’t seem to grasp and Gregorian Chant which you also despise.

Pope Benedict
“I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church’s tradition **should be recited in Latin **and, if possible, selections of **Gregorian chant should be sung. **Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use **Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; **nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to **Gregorian chant. **”

 

[Ghoti]

Traditio is a very anti-SSPX site as well but if you can prove their documents are in error, then I’ll be more than happy to read your versions. Having listened to 40 years of liberal “Latin Mass was abrogated” stuff doesn’t exactly give the pro-Novus Ordo folks too much credibility either.

From what I saw of their site, they didn’t seem to speak unkindly about SSPX. Here’s just some stuff I gleaned to try and get my head around where they’re coming from:

Schismatic. One who formally separates himself from communion with the Roman Catholic Church. The Novus Ordinarians are in this condition as the Great Roman Schism of 1964.

SSPX. Societas Sacerdotalis Sancti Pii X (Society of St. Pius X). An international organization of traditional priests founded by Abp. Marcel Lefebvre in 1970. Uses the Missale Romanum of 1962.

SSPV. Societas Sacerdotalis Sancti Pii V (Priestly Society of St. Pius V. A national organization of traditional priests who separated from the SSPX in the mid 1980s because they believed that the SSPX had become too accommodating to the Modernistic tendencies of the Vatican. Uses the Missale Romanum prior to the rubrical revisions of 1956.

New Age. A resurgence of paganism that has been “westernized” and dressed up in modern vocabulary. It denies fundamental Christian doctrines and basic Christian morality. Newchurch often promotes New Age beliefs and
practices, such as those associated with the pagan religions of Hinduism and
Buddhism (enneagrams, yoga, etc.).

Novus Ordo, New Order. Refers to the Modernistic, heretical, schismatic, and unCatholic doctrines and practices that were introduced since Vatican II. Also refers to the sect and its apparatus deriving from the Great Roman Schism of 1964, when the New Order began to be implemented in place of true Catholicism.

Novus Ordo Service, New Order Service. Sometimes called the “New Mass,” although it is not really a Mass at all by its own definition. This unCatholic service that was introduced in 1969 and condemned at that time by the Cardinal Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office. It clearly violates the dogmatic decree “Quo Primum” and Apostolic Tradition. Form, matter, and/or intention in its use make it invalid.

Illicit. Not in accordance with legitimate ecclesiastical authority. The Novus Ordo apparatus, which deviates from the Catholic Faith, is not viewed by traditional Catholics as being a legitimate ecclesiastical authority.

Conservative Novus Ordoism. Descriptive of those who associate themselves with the New Order Church and carry the dogmatic teaching on the papacy to an erroneous extreme, considering any merely prudential decision of a pope in contravention of Sacred Tradition as to be obeyed nonetheless (see also Papolatry). Has no essential objection to the Novus Ordo service and sacraments because they have supposedly been “approved” by Newvatican. Incorrectly holds that the Church can maintain its moral teaching while it dares to “modernize” the Sacred Liturgy that was handed down from the Apostles.

This from their definitions page.

That and they consistently refer to the Pope as “Newpope Benedict-Ratzinger”, and use terms like “Newchurch”, “Newcardinal”, etc. I think the only reason they haven’t come out as sedevacantists is that they seem to see sedevacantism as a matter of “personal opinion” and therefore really irrelevant (as I think they find the current and last batch of Popes).

 

[dyspepsic]

When he says Mass in the U.S.he will say the OF with plenty of Latin, a language that you can’t seem to grasp and Gregorian Chant which you also despise.

QUOTE]

The whole thought of it gives me dyspepsia
I hope the American Cardinals will remind the Pope of 'when in Rome, do as the Romans do". We have 300 million Americans watching. It will not be an international crowd, but an american crowd. We want it in English, all English.

It’s okay when the Pope is in the Vatican. All those people attending Mass are from various countries. He can revert to Latin. Here, we expect our own tongue. English first. English always.

I thought you said that Latin was easy. But you don’t think I can grasp it. It aint easy. It makes my eyes hurt.

English, Father, please. Let’s keep it simple. All those non-Catholics would be scraching their heads if the Holy Father stareted speaking in German. Same so for Latin.

 

[stmaria]

=stmaria;3435562]When he says Mass in the U.S.he will say the OF with plenty of Latin, a language that you can’t seem to grasp and Gregorian Chant which you also despise

.

=dyspepsic
The whole thought of it gives me dyspepsia
I hope the American Cardinals will remind the Pope of 'when in Rome, do as the Romans do". We have 300 million Americans watching. It will not be an international crowd, but an american crowd.

We want it in English, all English.

It’s okay when the Pope is in the Vatican. All those people attending Mass are from various countries. He can revert to Latin.

Here, we expect our own tongue. English first. English always.
English, Father, please. Let’s keep it simple

.

You are really disturbed. Memorize the Holy Fathers words. Latin in the liturgy at international gatherings.

Pope Benedict
“In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, **it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. **”

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Again, what I read from the site was not nearly exhaustive (but indeed exhausting!)

I am not saying that their documents are in error,I just question the source because of their particular bias. I would say the same if it came from some radical leftie9 take deep breath) happy clappy Kumbaya group. The documents could be right – even a broken clock is perfectly accutae twice a day – I’m just saying that when retrieving info from any source, the particular outlook of that source may make the veracity of the info suspect, or at least that it might be provided spin-free.

The story goes that during the Cold War, some automotive group in Europe compared the Lada with a comparable American car. The US car beat the Soviet car handily in all areas – safety, reliability, comfort, durability, quality, etc.

It was then truthfully reported in Pravda that, in an international study, the Lada came second in overall quality, while the US car came second-last.

All I’m saying is, consider your source.

As for the Latin mass being abrogated, I’m not really sure what that means. I know for the longest time it was not offered, and that it seems to have been suppressed, although by the Pope, one of the Congregations, or a Bishops’ Conference (like the CCCB), I don’t know. But I do know that I was taught in school that even at Vatican II the Latin Mass and Gregorian Chant were to have “pride of place”. So I don;'t know if it was abrogated de hure or de facto – in the latter case by ingnoring it. I know I’m glad it’s (coming) back, as I want to go.

And for any NO-types who think that the Latin Mass is some relic best forgotten, I feel the same way as I do about the traditionalists who say the NO is invalid. Aside from any abuses of either form – both EF and OF are valid, so in my mind to denigrate either form is to denigrate Him Who makes Himself present.

As our Evangelical friends would say, “Amen, brother!”

 

[ProVobis]

QUOTE]

The whole thought of it gives me dyspepsia

If it’s the Pope, take what you can get. If the Mass is the Mass is the Mass as you say, then your convenience shouldn’t be the most important issue. You should be able to understand an Italian or a German Mass if the Mass is important to you. Or isn’t it valid enough for you?

 

[ProVobis]

This from their definitions page.

If you read all their daily commentaries, though, they state (more often than not) that the SSPX has sold out to the “modernists” and there is dissension within their ranks big time. Their latest comments concerning Bishop Williamson, for example, weren’t exactly very flattering to him. As you say, consider your sources. And I agree, consider ALL your sources. Even an atheistic can be right on the weather or nuclear technology.

 

[ProVobis]

QUOTE]

The whole thought of it gives me dyspepsia

If it’s the Pope, take what you can get. If the Mass is the Mass is the Mass as you say, then your convenience shouldn’t be the most important issue. You should be able to understand an Italian or a German Mass if the Mass is important to you. Or isn’t a German Mass valid enough for you?

 

[bear06]

Well if its valid it’s legal. And I’m sure those who do go to a sspx mass feel fulfulled.

Might I remind you that Greek Orthodox also have a valid Mass?> Pluse we don’t usually say legal. We say licit. The Vatican has declared their Mass to be valid but illicit. And it really doesn’t matter a whole heck of a lot whether someone feels they fulfilled their Sunday obligation. It could, however, mean that they are not culpable of missing the Sudnay obligation.

 

[bear06]

He said it fulfills the sunday obligation and is not a sin if a person merely desires the EF, and not to attend an SSPX mass becuase they think the SSPX is the true Church and not the Catholic Church.

Sounds pretty straight-forward to me.

Let’s go over a little history. Someone contacted the Ecclesia Dei Commission with a query on whether or not they could fulfill their Sunday obligation in their circumstance. We’ve never seen the orginal letter (even though the response was broadcast far and wide) so we know not what the circumstance was. Msgr. Perl responded and then his response was broadcast far and wide with the nice little headline “Vatican Admits that SSPX Mass Fulfills Sunday Obligation” to which Msgr. Perl sent out a clarification which said:

Unfortunately, as you will understand, we have no way of controlling what is done with our letters by their recipients. Our letter of 27 September 2002, which was evidently cited in The Remnant and on various websites, was intended as a private communication dealing with the specific circumstances of the person who wrote to us.

If it was written to address the “specific circumstances of the person who wrote” then we would really need to know the circumstance to know if we can fulfill our Sunday obligation too. We can no way infer that it applies to every circumstance or for all since Msgr. Perl clarified that it was dealing with a specific cirmcumstances of an individual.

 

[bear06]

We’re discussing Cardinal Hoyos’ words, not the commentary or lack of authority of the author of the article. Ad-hominems are not evidence.

You’ve got to ask yourself why this has yet to be put into an official response or document. The contrary has.

 

[Unitas]

Ohh the whole Vatican LIED to us?? DECEIVED us??

Don’t think so.

Abrogated or not a new ordinary form to be used by the whole Church was moved in and the TLM was moved out.

Funny, I’ve read Sacrosanctum Concilium many times, and nowhere does it say the old mass is to be “moved out” and a new mass “moved in”. Also, nowhere can I find where the old mass was abrogated to be replaced with a new mass. Care to cite a source?

 

[piouswoman]

If you think that you CANNOT attend a NO Mass, for the salvation of your own soul… you’re schismatic.

Please don’t attempt to label me. That tactic is old, time worn and does not work any longer. I am tired of the antics that neo-catholics use to try to cut down those who only do ONE thing…follow their faith just as popes, bishops, saints, martyrs, and doctors of the church have for near two thousand years. If you truly believe that the Church began with Vatican II, then we can start a role reversal of name calling here. Please learn some Church history.

 

[piouswoman]

Thats because “those barbarians” do believe in the same one true God. And I AM willing to kiss the Koran with words, and would do so physically, becuase it would mean one step closer to peace with them. Lets not forget that Catholics were once “those babarians” too, lets not forget we went on several crusades, or the Inquistions. Some Muslims may not be perfect followers of Islam, but some Catholics arent perfect followers of Catholicism either. Dont blame the Belief for peoples actions.

Your statements here are totally apostate, and scandalous. Take the time to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church before the modernists got their hands on it, and read some Church history while you are at it. It wouldn’t hurt either if you would read about the martyrs that shed their blood for our faith.