Dress and evangelization

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She is attempting to promote **her **idea of femininity to others that agree with her.
I do not dress as she does, but I do not consider myself to be any less feminine than her. It is a dangerous thought to assume that one is more “feminine” (and in an unspoken thought, more holy) because one wears skirts down to their ankles. So while I don’t really care if someone wants to do so, (or feels “called” to do so) I don’t want to be looked down upon because I do not dress that way.

In a way, it is almost like a uniform that announces your beliefs, the same way that a nun’s dress or a priest’s collar does. Does that affect evangelization efforts on your part? Only you can answer that.
Hi, Irish!

(…are those eyes smiling?)

No, she is not promoting “her brand” of femininity; she is concerned with someone else’s opinion that what she wears will put off people from becoming Catholic…

…there was a fossil in one of the parishes I visited that would wear his shirt unbuttoned to his bellybutton… was he promoting Avantgarde catholique?

The way we dress says something about ourselves; sadly, less and less people believe that we are to set an example of purity and believe that when it comes to being Catholic everything goes…

Monica seems to be wanting to project modesty… that does not mean that she is out to push modesty on anyone else.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Irishmom, I would rather not get into a debate about the blog that I linked as I only linked it to show an example of dress to clarify my point… also I didn’t say anywhere that I think I’m holier or that I think others are inferior in some way. Nor do I think so. I am speaking about how I felt drawn to dress and my question is about evangelization… I didn’t even start this thread to promote my kind of dress.

I’m sorry I’m confused about the point you made. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way but it sounds from your post like a woman such as the blogger would be judgemental. If you didn’t mean it that way I’m sorry and I would be grateful if you clarified…

Its just that i am kind of confused why whenever women want to wear only long skirts, there are comments about them being holier than thou or judgemental to others. I feel like that is not fair because it is assuming what’s in the heart. I can’t know what’s in the heart of a girl who wears jeans and in the same way no one can know what’s in the heart of a girl in a long skirt. I hope this doesn’t sound confrontational but it just happens a lot on forums… Maybe this comment was about the blogger, but we can’t know her heart either. I posted the picture to show a style that is similar to mine because others were wondering what I meant… that’s all 🙂
Hi, Monica!

It’s called “peer pressure;” when people disagree (I should say when Catholics) with the Church’s Teaching they tend to cite all sorts of reasons why it is wrong… the most common catch all is “dated.”

When it comes to females; hollowood and the porn culture have infiltrated the mind of man so deeply that “Christians” defend the “right” to be bad… it is as if they are thinking that the Church (God) can’t Condemn all us; that “one hand washes the other” only gets man so far…

Though beauty is only skin deep, vanity can seep well into the depths of the most righteous… yes, dress/style does make the man/woman; but, for Christians, modesty must be the crown achievement of the dress code. If style causes you to focus too much attention on man (creature) let go of it and seek God–He will not be displeased because your attire does not reflect the latest trends.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
What does it mean to look your best? I’m trying to understand. I don’t think I look sloppy. I try to be neat or put together.

I guess I just don’t understand are you all saying that wearing something longer and in a simpler colour is not looking your best? I am having trouble understanding this. Could someone explain?
Hi, Monica!

…she wants you to change your dress code to “flexible” length (whatever is acceptable by the fashion police); flexible designs, flexible looks…

…simple and long is not “aesthetically pleasing.”

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, Monica!

It’s called “peer pressure;” when people disagree (I should say when Catholics) with the Church’s Teaching they tend to cite all sorts of reasons why it is wrong… the most common catch all is “dated.”

When it comes to females; hollowood and the porn culture have infiltrated the mind of man so deeply that “Christians” defend the “right” to be bad… it is as if they are thinking that the Church (God) can’t Condemn all us; that “one hand washes the other” only gets man so far…

Though beauty is only skin deep, vanity can seep well into the depths of the most righteous… yes, dress/style does make the man/woman; but, for Christians, modesty must be the crown achievement of the dress code. If style causes you to focus too much attention on man (creature) let go of it and seek God–He will not be displeased because your attire does not reflect the latest trends.

Maran atha!

Angel
Just to be clear – the type of clothing she is talking about finding uncomfortable (jeans) are not a sign of vanity or anything else sinful. The Church in no way teaches that women are less than modest or feminine if they are wearing slacks/jeans.

We need to remember our personal preferences are just that.
 
IMHO:

No matter what we do, or how we appear outwardly, we cannot please everyone, nor will we attract everyone. We can only do what we feel the Lord is calling us to do, and leave the outcome in His hands.

If the Lord is calling us to modesty–even extreme modesty–we can only obey what he has put into our heart. We must put our faith in Him, knowing that there is a purpose for his calling in our lives. It could be for our own purity, or it could be for someone else. If our form of dress calls but one person to walk more closely with God, we must believe that that one soul was of upmost importance to him, and that the one soul was worth every sacrifice we may have made.

The calling is up to God; our obedience is up to us.
Hi, Autumn!

I fully concur!

I don’t get this need to follow trends 'because you must."

I love NY Cheese Cake… I don’t go around forcing it down everyone’s throat–some people just might love it more than I… and corner the market! :p:p:p

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I think this notion that men are so irresponsible and such beasts that they just can’t resist an exposed ankle is bad on so many levels.
That’s like saying a women with exposed arms is a loose woman. Simply daft.

Here’s the thing: If you’re dealing with or are around guys that think you’re a piece of meat to be ogled, then it doesn’t matter what you are wearing, they has no respect for women. (there’s far fewer of those than folks would have you believe. Plenty of men on CAF that are looking for a decent woman.

You can’t lead people AWAY from the faith by what you wear nor can you lead people TO the faith by what you wear.
**
Wear what is to your taste that fits well. Your ACTIONS your WORDS your PEACE is what makes people want what you have: namely, a relationship with God. **

Everything else is window dressing. I know people who come to Mass dressed very well. It means nothing. Likewise a homeless person in tatters may be very close to Christ’s heart.

But don’t try to ascribe it to some sort of conversation with the Lord.
He expects you to do…be the hands and feet of Christ in the world.
What you wear, doesn’t factor in near as much as you think it does.

For consecrated religious? A totally different thing. Their garb is an outward sign of their separation from worldly things.
Totally different.
Hi, Clare!

I fully concur with the highlighted text!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Monica, all the links you posted are super cute! If you stand out in these clothes maybe it has to do with your location. In some parts of the country people’s dress is more uniform, everyone dresses similar. Here in California you wouldn’t stand out in these skirts because there is so much diversity in dress here. We have everything from barely any clothes (obviously not good) to burkas, and no one bats an eye. I can’t imagine that the clothes you linked to would cause someone to think one way or another about the Church, that just doesn’t make sense to me. They are just regular clothes that regular people wear, has nothing to do with church.

As an aside, I find it curious that if a lady were to wear pants every day, no one would wonder why she never wears a skirt, but if you wear skirts that’s somehow strange? This doesn’t make sense either.
Hi, Lisa!

…I think it’s the old argument thing… when people begin to lose they raise their voice in order to intimidate the opponent and to give themselves a sense of superiority… braking Monica’s confidence seems to be the final straw of someone whose attempt to change her style failed and he/she does not want to lose graciously… twisting Monica’s arm might get her to turn his/her way… (my twos)

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Just to be clear – the type of clothing she is talking about finding uncomfortable (jeans) are not a sign of vanity or anything else sinful. The Church in no way teaches that women are less than modest or feminine if they are wearing slacks/jeans.

We need to remember our personal preferences are just that.
Hi, Ann!

Correct!

I was tacking general opinion to the issue at hand… when people resolve to dislike something there’s always a catch word/phrase; a personal introspective look into “modesty” scares those who have been battling against Church Authority… rather than accepting what you’ve stated in your concluding thought, they would use bashing thought/words which are aimed to dissuade their opponent from sticking to their conscience.

Peer pressure teams against the odd man/woman out because of fear that they will be judge by the other’s religiosity.

…it seems that only “our” “modern” way is the correct form… personally I’m judgmental on pizza, oreos, soda, beer… (the list goes on and on) but I do not demand that anyone else share my convictions–nor do I espouse them with “holier than thou.”

The same is not found from the other side of the spectrum… people who are seeking the simple and modest life are shun and dismissed by those who fear “losing grounds” to the “liberties” they have “purchased” from the Church.

(yeah, I can be judgmental! :p:p:p)

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Thank you to everyone who responded. I’ll be really honest… i don’t feel like i could in good conscience wear pants or shorter skirts. I wanted to know if this would push people away from the faith /…/.

I understand making the outfits look nice… I feel like some are saying here that no matter how much I try with them, they would look dowdy just because of the length /…/ maybe I could speak to my SD about this /…/
As an older priest in retirement, I’ve found this an interesting thread. I must confess, it has brought back many varied memories

Firstly, of my mother. She was talented regarding clothes and she designed many of the outfits that I remember so vividly although she’s been gone many years

Before fashions changed, she was quite conventional. There was a dress length for day wear and one for formal wear. Many of her outfits were along the lines of what the Queen wore then and still wears today



Which brings me to my first comment. A person should choose what they’re comfortable with…be it pants, dress, skirt…and wear it. But if one’s conscience would not allow one to wear something that is not ankle length or almost ankle length, then that would be problematic; there are many consecrated Religious whose habits are not of that style. As I say, if it is a matter of one’s sartorial preference, that is what it is – but it ought not be a matter of conscience

Anyone who would say the Queen above or the Religious below are not modestly and appropriately dressed should be treated as mad



In the years after the war, it became more and more acceptable for women to wear slacks and my mother was at the vanguard of that movement. She greatly preferred them and found them more comfortable; they were more her style. By the era after the Council, she had set aside wearing dresses entirely. Church was the last place she wore one. My mother wore her pantsuits to the end of her life and she was the very portrait of femininity and of modesty

As a spiritual director, I was consulted on fashion issues; it was always women who had become tertiaries of one of the secular orders and it concerned how to incorporate their life as a tertiary – which was very important to them – into their wardrobe without, however, appearing to portray themselves as Religious. Since I’d worked with Religious in one of my roles for years, it was easy for me to answer. I was always glad that the lady was happy and we never came up against any parameter that I would have to say, that’s a step too far

Which brings me to another comment. One of the disturbing things I’ve encountered as a spiritual director is the recent profusion of the sense of being “called”. It is of course a real thing, fundamental to the theology of vocation. I’m called to be…a priest, a monk, a Sister, in the married state, to remain in the world. I’m called to serve the poor, to be a deacon, be involved with ministry to the sick and dying. Even I’m called to be an adorer of the Blessed Sacrament and thereby assist the perpetual adoration programme

But for what is transitory and ephemeral by its nature is another matter. On any given day, whether I wear my cassock is a decision I own. On the other hand, I’ve never liked denim. I don’t wear it, even for digging in the garden. I own that decision, too. God has not asked me not to wear denim; I look at them and choose to wear another type of work attire

Which brings me to my final reflection. I remember Padre Pio. I know even better the milieu from which he came. He was a man of his time. Some decades before he was born, St. Alphonsus died. Alphonsus had the custom of never looking a woman in the face as an act of modesty and custody of the eyes; I remember this story vividly from my days of study for the priesthood. Even then, we were told this really belongs to a different era. It would be a poor practice for us – as seminarians and later as priests – and it would seem eccentric in the extreme for our contemporaries in the 20th century

Whether it was Alphonsus, who was born in the 17th century and died in the 18th, or Pio, born in the 19th and died in the 20th, one has to bear in mind that mores change over time. Pio came of age in what was, in the English speaking world, the end of the Victorian era and then the Edwardian era. That style of dress today would be a costume and those manners affectation. Even what my mother wore in the 1940s would, today, be worn by historical re-enactors.

Having looked at what you posted, I would suggest the comments you’ve received from peers are along those lines. If your fashion choices are of one type exclusively, the comment can be simply the suggestion that something else may be more flattering and in keeping with your age.

I had the same thing happen to me as a young priest. There was a style of sweater I wore. It was a vintage style. A lady in my diocese, whom I had known for years, delicately brought up one day that the style really did not suit me. It made me look much older and evoked another era. I thanked her kindly and told her that it was a style I really liked for various reasons.

It was comfortable, warm and I liked those sweaters in a way I did not care for others. I owned the fact that she was right: they were out of fashion, did make me look older, it was an eccentric choice. But I wanted to wear them. That may be your ultimate situation as well

No one should be drawn to or away from God because of a person’s attire. But, if while wearing said attire, we communicate that what we are wearing has some sort of religious or moral significance, or worse superiority, people can certainly formulate a thought and an opinion based on that
 
Father, thank you for the response to my question

I am currently struggling to understand some things… I don’t speak about my views about modesty in every day life, for example if someone at work were to ask me why I dress the way I do, I would say I just like this type of clothing. I think most people assume it’s my style. I have spoken about it to people who were interested like close friends and other Catholics, but ‘out in the world’ I generally keep the discussion to things like work

The way this started was a combination of things… I began to attend a parish with the Latin Mass and when I saw a certain young woman who was very modest, i noticed a very strong sense of peace about this type of dress in my heart. At this time I was not really thinking about modesty and I followed what is common in our culture. When I read about St Padre Pio, I began to have a devotion to him and asked him in prayer to accept me as a spiritual daughter. At some point I think before this, I read about his modesty standards and decided to follow them.

It is difficult sometimes because of feeling like I stand out and facing some criticism. In my parish, this view of modesty is shared by other women and I recently read the book Dressing with Dignity by Colleen Hammond. She described how fashions evolved in the last century… all these things brought me to the idea that there must be some sort of more objective modesty standards out there. As I thought about it, it seemed like our culture had become desensitized to immodesty and lost a sense of it.

In these forums, it seems like most people have a different view and see modesty as being more relative to culture. I understand people see my position as being wrong. I do worry whether I’m right or not.

It seems to me like i am getting different views depending on who I ask. Many at my parish would probably agree with there being more objective modesty standards. Many here would not. I am anxious that I don’t know how to tell if my beliefs are correct. I have found a certain peace from how i dress and it’s maybe helped with my vocational discernment, but I have had difficulties too. I am sort of at the point where I’m not sure what to think, because I am getting different viewpoints… how can I know what the truth is? I want to speak to my spiritual director about this when I’m able to… but i would be grateful for any advice - thank you again!
 
Father, thank you for the response to my question

I am currently struggling to understand some things… I don’t speak about my views about modesty in every day life, for example if someone at work were to ask me why I dress the way I do, I would say I just like this type of clothing. I think most people assume it’s my style. I have spoken about it to people who were interested like close friends and other Catholics, but ‘out in the world’ I generally keep the discussion to things like work

The way this started was a combination of things… I began to attend a parish with the Latin Mass and when I saw a certain young woman who was very modest, i noticed a very strong sense of peace about this type of dress in my heart. At this time I was not really thinking about modesty and I followed what is common in our culture. When I read about St Padre Pio, I began to have a devotion to him and asked him in prayer to accept me as a spiritual daughter. At some point I think before this, I read about his modesty standards and decided to follow them.

It is difficult sometimes because of feeling like I stand out and facing some criticism.

/…/ Many here would not. I am anxious that I don’t know how to tell if my beliefs are correct. I have found a certain peace from how i dress and it’s maybe helped with my vocational discernment, but I have had difficulties too. I am sort of at the point where I’m not sure what to think, because I am getting different viewpoints… how can I know what the truth is? I want to speak to my spiritual director about this when I’m able to… but i would be grateful for any advice - thank you again!
I think this is a matter that really is best worked out with your spiritual director and I would not want to intrude upon that

You seem to have several values that are irreconcilably in conflict with each other

Standards of modesty in dress are essentially prudential applications,beyond certain thresholds…they are not absolutes. At the same time that Saint Pio is ministering in San Giovanni Rotondo, Saint Gianna Molla is living her life and is an example of the virtues



Visiting Saint Peter’s



In attire that Padre Pio, born 40 years before her, may or may not have looked upon approvingly…with the short sleeves. the shortness of the skirt, the wearing of pants

http://lublin.republika.pl/gianna_pliki/gbm10.jpg

On the one hand, you express the desire to adhere to Padre Pio’s directives concerning modesty, which were rooted in a specific time, place and culture as well as circumstance. You are devoted to him but it is not as if Padre Pio is more worthy of emulation and of taking counsel than other saints proposed for our edification or is an unmovable standard. For that matter, one could just as easily adopt the fashion of the Victorians. It would not be morally wrong. It would certainly be remarkable to people of the 21st century who observed you

As you have phrased it – and I readily admit I may be misunderstanding because I am not terribly clear in what you are trying to convey – on the one hand, you are content with the decision in so far as you feel peace and contentment with the wearing of these style of clothes but at the same time you have discontent that others remark about them and you wonder about the validity of points they raise

Like with my sweaters, it was a case where they truly were à la mode of a bygone era. Wearing them was eccentric as they were completely out of fashion. They did make me look older and a bit odd from my contemporaries. The lady who spoke to me was absolutely right in what she said

But everything about the sweaters I liked. I was not wearing them to be eccentric or singular but because I liked them and found them the most comfortable of sweaters, as I tended to be cold. That they were not à la mode was not significant to me. On the other hand, I could not bring them back into fashion and other people would think what they thought…that was out of my control, too

It truly did not bother me and, truth be told, I still prefer that style. Eventually, they’ll probably come back in fashion, though I expect I’ll be dead by then…or maybe they won’t come back

In your case, it seems there is something in this that does bother you

If it is a matter of taste in clothes, a spiritual director may not be able to help…if it actually is a matter of conscience or morality, then a spiritual director should be able to help

Perhaps in this case…I don’t know…I don’t know you at all…you are doing this because you think it is the right and virtuous thing to do but a part of you is not convinced of this determination. In the case of my sweaters there was no moral component at all, as to modesty or virtue. It was purely a matter of taste in clothes and their functionality

If you truly like these long skirts and truly enjoy wearing them more than other fashion choices…you should wear them and not worry about what others think. Fashion is a very personal decision and statement

On the other hand, if wearing something the length of the Queen’s dress or the habits of the Sisters’ in my previous post or what Saint Gianna is wearing would provoke an alarm of conscience, you should speak to your spiritual director about that and work through that with him

That would be my concern. You have picked a modesty standard essentially based at the beginning of the 20th century in the province of Foggia. One would find different standards a century, two centuries, five centuries before that concerning both dress and the propriety of behaviours
 
Father, thank you again for your reply…

I’ve spent a few years following these modesty standards and not doubting them, but I get fearful and doubt easily - not just with this issue, but perhaps with everything. It is a weakness I have and I get scrupulous easily. When people express a different view, sometimes I wonder if I’m correct. I initially wondered if my dress could make evangelization more difficult, but this lead to other questions in the course of this discussion

It’s currently difficult for me to figure this out because of there being so many views out there…

With the example of St Gianna Molla, I don’t know what her views were and if she only wore pants for things like skiing or hiking… In almost all pictures of her, she is in a longer skirt… I don’t doubt at all that she is a Saint and much holier than me, in any case.

There are some questions that I’m trying to work out, - St Padre Pio talked about these modesty standards in the 60s when most women wore much shorter skirts and were beginning to wear pants… He wanted the skirts to be at least 8 inches below the knee, which is something like mid calf length. (St Gianna’s picture of visiting St Peter’s might be that length). In the apparitions of Our Lady of Good Success, Our Lady told Mother Mariana that in the 20th century, modesty would scarcely be found in women and that there would be an almost total corruption of customs… I’ve found that modesty standards in the culture have gotten more and more flexible over time and if people believe it is all relative on the culture, I don’t understand where the line should be drawn… people tend to excuse things today that were completely inexcusable in the past… these are points that I’m thinking about… since my view is the minority here, I could easily be wrong, and if I’m wrong - I’d need to find a way to reconcile these ideas in my mind. I understand that I could still dress the same way out of personal preference, and I think I do prefer it from a fashion point of view as well

I will talk to my SD about this… since my parish is a Latin Mass parish, sometimes I have found that views there are different than in other parishes. It is the amount of different opinions I hear that sometimes causes me a lot of confusion, because I wonder how to tell what the truth is…

Thank you again Father, I will try to think about all this 🙂
 
I have questioned Padre Pio’s stance on women more than once. Does anyone seriously believe that Our Lord, Jesus, would turn away a man or woman from one of the sacraments because they weren’t dressed to his wishes?
Monica, have you seriously thought of joining a religious community? I don’t mean the communities for the laity, but a true order, such as Sisters of Mercy? What was your major in college? I hope you find a place where you are comfortable and able to have many friends of all “dressing” types! :rolleyes:
 
As an older priest in retirement, I’ve found this an interesting thread. I must confess, it has brought back many varied memories

Firstly, of my mother. She was talented regarding clothes and she designed many of the outfits that I remember so vividly although she’s been gone many years

Before fashions changed, she was quite conventional. There was a dress length for day wear and one for formal wear. Many of her outfits were along the lines of what the Queen wore then and still wears today

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/pope6-467193.jpg

Which brings me to my first comment. A person should choose what they’re comfortable with…be it pants, dress, skirt…and wear it. But if one’s conscience would not allow one to wear something that is not ankle length or almost ankle length, then that would be problematic; there are many consecrated Religious whose habits are not of that style. As I say, if it is a matter of one’s sartorial preference, that is what it is – but it ought not be a matter of conscience

Anyone who would say the Queen above or the Religious below are not modestly and appropriately dressed should be treated as mad

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/51/c2/5e/51c25efcb476ad7fa530d6b207c079b1--the-sisters-st-francis.jpg

In the years after the war, it became more and more acceptable for women to wear slacks and my mother was at the vanguard of that movement. She greatly preferred them and found them more comfortable; they were more her style. By the era after the Council, she had set aside wearing dresses entirely. Church was the last place she wore one. My mother wore her pantsuits to the end of her life and she was the very portrait of femininity and of modesty

As a spiritual director, I was consulted on fashion issues; it was always women who had become tertiaries of one of the secular orders and it concerned how to incorporate their life as a tertiary – which was very important to them – into their wardrobe without, however, appearing to portray themselves as Religious. Since I’d worked with Religious in one of my roles for years, it was easy for me to answer. I was always glad that the lady was happy and we never came up against any parameter that I would have to say, that’s a step too far

Which brings me to another comment. One of the disturbing things I’ve encountered as a spiritual director is the recent profusion of the sense of being “called”. It is of course a real thing, fundamental to the theology of vocation. I’m called to be…a priest, a monk, a Sister, in the married state, to remain in the world. I’m called to serve the poor, to be a deacon, be involved with ministry to the sick and dying. Even I’m called to be an adorer of the Blessed Sacrament and thereby assist the perpetual adoration programme

But for what is transitory and ephemeral by its nature is another matter. On any given day, whether I wear my cassock is a decision I own. On the other hand, I’ve never liked denim. I don’t wear it, even for digging in the garden. I own that decision, too. God has not asked me not to wear denim; I look at them and choose to wear another type of work attire

Which brings me to my final reflection. I remember Padre Pio. I know even better the milieu from which he came. He was a man of his time. Some decades before he was born, St. Alphonsus died. Alphonsus had the custom of never looking a woman in the face as an act of modesty and custody of the eyes; I remember this story vividly from my days of study for the priesthood. Even then, we were told this really belongs to a different era. It would be a poor practice for us – as seminarians and later as priests – and it would seem eccentric in the extreme for our contemporaries in the 20th century

Whether it was Alphonsus, who was born in the 17th century and died in the 18th, or Pio, born in the 19th and died in the 20th, one has to bear in mind that mores change over time. Pio came of age in what was, in the English speaking world, the end of the Victorian era and then the Edwardian era. That style of dress today would be a costume and those manners affectation. Even what my mother wore in the 1940s would, today, be worn by historical re-enactors.

Having looked at what you posted, I would suggest the comments you’ve received from peers are along those lines. If your fashion choices are of one type exclusively, the comment can be simply the suggestion that something else may be more flattering and in keeping with your age.

I had the same thing happen to me as a young priest. There was a style of sweater I wore. It was a vintage style. A lady in my diocese, whom I had known for years, delicately brought up one day that the style really did not suit me. It made me look much older and evoked another era. I thanked her kindly and told her that it was a style I really liked for various reasons.

It was comfortable, warm and I liked those sweaters in a way I did not care for others. I owned the fact that she was right: they were out of fashion, did make me look older, it was an eccentric choice. But I wanted to wear them. That may be your ultimate situation as well
No one should be drawn to or away from God because of a person’s attire. But, if while wearing said attire, we communicate that what we are wearing has some sort of religious or moral significance, or worse superiority, people can certainly formulate a thought and an opinion based on that
Hi, Father Ruggero!

I fully concur with the highlighted thought–though I don’t think that you got the gist of the OP; she is not prescribing evangelization through ‘my modesty standard.’ She is confused by those who, as your lady friend, want her to “dress up!”

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Father, thank you for the response to my question

I am currently struggling to understand some things… I don’t speak about my views about modesty in every day life, for example if someone at work were to ask me why I dress the way I do, I would say I just like this type of clothing. I think most people assume it’s my style. I have spoken about it to people who were interested like close friends and other Catholics, but ‘out in the world’ I generally keep the discussion to things like work

The way this started was a combination of things… I began to attend a parish with the Latin Mass and when I saw a certain young woman who was very modest, i noticed a very strong sense of peace about this type of dress in my heart. At this time I was not really thinking about modesty and I followed what is common in our culture. When I read about St Padre Pio, I began to have a devotion to him and asked him in prayer to accept me as a spiritual daughter. At some point I think before this, I read about his modesty standards and decided to follow them.

It is difficult sometimes because of feeling like I stand out and facing some criticism. In my parish, this view of modesty is shared by other women and I recently read the book Dressing with Dignity by Colleen Hammond. She described how fashions evolved in the last century… all these things brought me to the idea that there must be some sort of more objective modesty standards out there. As I thought about it, it seemed like our culture had become desensitized to immodesty and lost a sense of it.

In these forums, it seems like most people have a different view and see modesty as being more relative to culture. I understand people see my position as being wrong. I do worry whether I’m right or not.

It seems to me like i am getting different views depending on who I ask. Many at my parish would probably agree with there being more objective modesty standards. Many here would not. I am anxious that I don’t know how to tell if my beliefs are correct. I have found a certain peace from how i dress and it’s maybe helped with my vocational discernment, but I have had difficulties too. I am sort of at the point where I’m not sure what to think, because I am getting different viewpoints… how can I know what the truth is? I want to speak to my spiritual director about this when I’m able to… but i would be grateful for any advice - thank you again!
Hi, Monica!

…everyone has an opinion… to me, the only opinion that matters is mine.

…the second you give in to someone else’s opinion about who you are… another dissatisfied “fan” will chirp in with his/her twos on *how *you should improve

There are two people that you must please: God, Above all, and yourself.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I have questioned Padre Pio’s stance on women more than once. Does anyone seriously believe that Our Lord, Jesus, would turn away a man or woman from one of the sacraments because they weren’t dressed to his wishes?
Monica, have you seriously thought of joining a religious community? I don’t mean the communities for the laity, but a true order, such as Sisters of Mercy? What was your major in college? I hope you find a place where you are comfortable and able to have many friends of all “dressing” types! :rolleyes:
Hi!

Monica is not concerned with how you or others dress; she is not pushing for ‘her brand’ of etiquette or modesty.

She is being tagged with the responsibility of dressing to impress so that the masses can come to the Catholic Faith.

Her choice in attire should not be used against her by those who want to convert her out of her personal conviction.

If I did not wear a suit and a tie, would you be turned away from Catholicism because I wore jeans and a shirt/t-shirt?

That is what is being done to Monica. She is concerned because she does not want to cause others to reject the Catholic Church–which is the argument being put to her because they find/feel that her dress code seems an outdated “modesty.”

Since when does modesty depend on cultural style?

If she feels contented and at peace wearing long skirts, why should that matter to anyone else?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I have questioned Padre Pio’s stance on women more than once. Does anyone seriously believe that Our Lord, Jesus, would turn away a man or woman from one of the sacraments because they weren’t dressed to his wishes?
the Church does teach modesty… it is a virtue that guards chastity. For this reason I do believe it’s important. It’s not different from a person not being able to receive a Sacrament because of any other sin. However, in individual cases, it’s not always a mortal sin, it can be venial or no sin at all if a person is invincibly ignorant etc. So we can’t comment on people’s hearts or consider ourselves “better” for being modest. It’s not about being better… but immodesty can be a lack of charity because it might cause another person to battle with their thoughts (whether they give in to them or not is their responsibility).
Monica, have you seriously thought of joining a religious community? I don’t mean the communities for the laity, but a true order, such as Sisters of Mercy? What was your major in college? I hope you find a place where you are comfortable and able to have many friends of all “dressing” types! :rolleyes:
I am still discerning my vocation… yes I have thought about a religious vocation but I don’t know what God is calling me to yet.

I have friends who dress in all different ways, including non Catholic friends
 
Hi, Father Ruggero!

I fully concur with the highlighted thought–though I don’t think that you got the gist of the OP; she is not prescribing evangelization through ‘my modesty standard.’ She is confused by those who, as your lady friend, want her to “dress up!”

Maran atha!

Angel
To clarify, I have a modesty standard but I don’t use it in evangelization. When I talk to non Catholics about the faith, I just talk about the basic Church teachings.
Hi, Monica!

…everyone has an opinion… to me, the only opinion that matters is mine.

…the second you give in to someone else’s opinion about who you are… another dissatisfied “fan” will chirp in with his/her twos on *how *you should improve

There are two people that you must please: God, Above all, and yourself.

Maran atha!

Angel
I guess… I have been very wrong in the past about things (I wasn’t always a Catholic and was into some incorrect things before) - sometimes I have a fear about being wrong…
 
Father, thank you again for your reply…

I’ve spent a few years following these modesty standards and not doubting them, but I get fearful and doubt easily - not just with this issue, but perhaps with everything. It is a weakness I have and I get scrupulous easily. When people express a different view, sometimes I wonder if I’m correct. I initially wondered if my dress could make evangelization more difficult, but this lead to other questions in the course of this discussion

It’s currently difficult for me to figure this out because of there being so many views out there…

With the example of St Gianna Molla, I don’t know what her views were and if she only wore pants for things like skiing or hiking… In almost all pictures of her, she is in a longer skirt… I don’t doubt at all that she is a Saint and much holier than me, in any case.

There are some questions that I’m trying to work out, - St Padre Pio talked about these modesty standards in the 60s when most women wore much shorter skirts and were beginning to wear pants… He wanted the skirts to be at least 8 inches below the knee, which is something like mid calf length. (St Gianna’s picture of visiting St Peter’s might be that length). In the apparitions of Our Lady of Good Success, Our Lady told Mother Mariana that in the 20th century, modesty would scarcely be found in women and that there would be an almost total corruption of customs… I’ve found that modesty standards in the culture have gotten more and more flexible over time and if people believe it is all relative on the culture, I don’t understand where the line should be drawn… people tend to excuse things today that were completely inexcusable in the past… these are points that I’m thinking about… since my view is the minority here, I could easily be wrong, and if I’m wrong - I’d need to find a way to reconcile these ideas in my mind. I understand that I could still dress the same way out of personal preference, and I think I do prefer it from a fashion point of view as well

I will talk to my SD about this… since my parish is a Latin Mass parish, sometimes I have found that views there are different than in other parishes. It is the amount of different opinions I hear that sometimes causes me a lot of confusion, because I wonder how to tell what the truth is…

Thank you again Father, I will try to think about all this 🙂
Having read through the other thread running concurrently on modesty, with the disturbing ideas, concepts, and analogies being advanced in it; I think it best simply to say that I hope that your spiritual director can help you resolve your confusion as they relate to the mores of other epochs and cultures.
 
Father, thank you, I’ll try to speak to my SD… there are many views in that other thread…
 
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