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april32010
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great minds think alike :newidea:Ah…ya beat me to it. But I am sure this will be explained away also.
Drinking alcohol and smoking pot – what are your thoughts?
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Mickey
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Christian_Unity
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:hypno: I had too much to drink during my poker game to contribute to this thread.
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Ghosty
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Is the Catechism referring to alcohol as well? It is a drug that fits all the problems mentioned. If alcohol is different, explain how, and if it is not different then explain why marijuana should be prohibited while alcohol is not.
As for the damage from smoking, it’s irrelevant because such damage to the body is not morally forbidden by the Catholic Faith. Furthermore, pot doesn’t have to be smoked, so this is not an objection to pot itself, but rather a method of use, and again smoking is not prohibited at any rate.
Mickey: You claim to have a majority of priests on your side, but this is an unproven assertion. What’s more it would not be a strong argument in any case, as the same was true of coffee in the 16th century, yet time has changed that view. Regardlwess, my advice is the same as yours: people should consult their spiritual father and not rely on internet advice either way.
Peace and God bless!
As for the damage from smoking, it’s irrelevant because such damage to the body is not morally forbidden by the Catholic Faith. Furthermore, pot doesn’t have to be smoked, so this is not an objection to pot itself, but rather a method of use, and again smoking is not prohibited at any rate.
Mickey: You claim to have a majority of priests on your side, but this is an unproven assertion. What’s more it would not be a strong argument in any case, as the same was true of coffee in the 16th century, yet time has changed that view. Regardlwess, my advice is the same as yours: people should consult their spiritual father and not rely on internet advice either way.
Peace and God bless!
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april32010
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obtuse much ?
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Mickey
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I told you april.
You know very well what the CCC is talking about drugs such as marijuana, cocaine, heroin, etc. You don’t need to start spinning things to defend your position.
The former priest, Fr Corapi use to teach that smoking cigarettes violates the 5th commandment (tantamount to slow suicide).
Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own? For you are bought with a great price. Glorify and bear God in your body.
Now you are reaching.
Ha! Let’s start asking them. Online…email…forums…in person…doesn’t matter to me. You know very well they will overwhelmingly shoot down your "marijuana in moderation is moral " theory.
Of course it would. We are talking about the presbyters and bishops of the Church. It is amazing the lengths to which you will go in an attempt to defend the devil’s incense.
Uh-oh…here comes the caffeine analogy.
Absolutely! Please, please, please…consult your spiritual father. And if you don’t have one…ask your confessor or parish priest.
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april32010
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:yup:I told you april.
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Mickey
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The Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Health Care Ministry, has a pastoral handbook called,“Church, Drugs, and Drug Addiction.” It teaches that cannabis use is “incompatible with Christian morality” because it is an intoxicant that dims reason and potentially is damaging to the integrity of one’s body and soul.
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Mickey
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“As a former physician and presently a Catholic priest I can affirm that both medicine and moral thinking argue against the legalization of marijuana.”
Marijuana “alters brain function” and for the most part has “harmful effects” on mood, consciousness and behavior.
“It poses a physical and mental danger to its users and to those exposed to the lives and actions of users. Marijuana causes addiction and opens the way to addiction to many other drugs. For any citizen this should be sufficient to advise against legalization of marijuana,”
Fr. Juan Velez
Marijuana “alters brain function” and for the most part has “harmful effects” on mood, consciousness and behavior.
“It poses a physical and mental danger to its users and to those exposed to the lives and actions of users. Marijuana causes addiction and opens the way to addiction to many other drugs. For any citizen this should be sufficient to advise against legalization of marijuana,”
Fr. Juan Velez
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Mickey
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“We have all witnessed the devastating effect substance abuse has had on our communities and our families, which often started with recreational marijuana use and then progressed to more seriously harmful drugs and narcotics. Do we really want to implicitly invite our young people to go down this road, rather than give them the constant and consistent message, ‘Just say “no’ to drugs’?”
**Bishop Cordileone
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**Bishop Cordileone
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Mickey
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The legalization of drugs implies the risk of causing the opposite effect to that sought. In fact, it is easy to admit that what is legal is normal and therefore moral. Through the legalization of drugs, it is not the product that is thereby legalized, but rather the reasons leading to the consumption of this product that are justified. Now, no one will deny that drug use is an evil. Whether drugs are illegally purchased or distributed by the State, they are always harmful to man.
Pontifical Council for the Family
Pontifical Council for the Family
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Ghosty
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Care answer the question, rather than make personal attacks?
Mickey: The fact is that neither of us know what is being referred to, because it’s not explained, and drug is an ambiguous term. Does it refer to legal substances such as “bath salts”, or eating large quantities of nutmeg? Does it refer only to illegal substances, or also to things like nitrous oxide which is found in pressurized whipped cream? Does it refer to the fumes from paint or pens?
It’s not a useful guideline because it’s interpretation is up to the beholder. You casually write off the caffeine example, but perhaps you shouldn’t throw it aside too casually. The fact is that this very same discussion occured about coffee, and the view of the clergy changed. I can’t claim to know how the opinion of pot will proced, but I will happily submit to the judgement of the Church on the matter. At this time I have none from my Bishop, and my priests have said it’s not sinful in moderation. I’m not a user and don’t plan to be, but I caution anyone who would be to consult their spiritual guide and follow their bishops. As I’ve said many times I don’t advocate its use, I advocate its legalization.
Peace and God bless!
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CopticChristian
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Ghost,
You are not adhering to the call of God, assenting to the Will of God, using Reason and a pretense of lack of understanding. Here is the Catechism.
The issue here is the gift of Life…God gave you your life.
Temperance is a virtue that requires that you use, not abuse food, alcohol and tobacco.
Drugs except on therapeutic grounds is a grave offense. Now here is where a formation of conscience is necessary…
I am a Physician. I am telling you that Prudence dictates an understanding that the law of the Land…Federal dictates that Marijuana is illegal. I don’t care what the pagans are doing. I don’t care if the States pass laws that suggest you can violate a law. I don’t care if you believe that the Feds won’t inforce the law…
You are called to be a witness to the Faith…you are to share in the Apostolic mission by example, you are called to share in the priesthood of Christ and recognize that you have also been given gifts of Wisdom, Knowledge, Counsel, Understanding, Fortitude, Piety and Fear of the Lord…
Make use of these gifts and be a witness so that you do not lead yourself into sin and others into sin…do you honestly believe that you are posting so that others may lead a path from or to sin?
Give me a list of substances and I will tell you which is a drug and which is not and under what circumstances…if that will help…let me help you…
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Jala
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Ghosty
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CopticChristian: I appreciate your concern, but I’m not a drug user nor do I advocate drug use. 
Your offer to advise one what is a drug and what isn’t is kind, but it’s not at all helpful to the question at hand. As a physician you certainly classify alcohol as a drug of addiction (at least if you follow AMA guidelines), yet you would also have to admit that alcohol is not included in the Vatican definition of as drug as applied in the Catechism, as nebulous as it is. You would have to admit that nicotine is a drug as well, yet you would also have to admit that it is not included in that category according to the Catechism.
So the Catechism definition is simply not helpful for the discussion at hand because it is imprecise and subject to vastly different interpretations depending on the culture and the mindset of the person reading it.
As for the legal angle, the fact remains that in the American legal system a law is not binding if not enforced, nor if a jury will not convict (jury nullification). The Federal government has explicitly said that it will not enforce use laws on marijuana, so while the crime is on the books (like the wire-cutter law of Texas, or the dancing law of California) it is not necessarily an applied law. Regardless, advocating a change in law is not illegal, and the Washington State law is not illegal, so I’m not advocating the breaking of any law anyway.
Peace and God bless!
Your offer to advise one what is a drug and what isn’t is kind, but it’s not at all helpful to the question at hand. As a physician you certainly classify alcohol as a drug of addiction (at least if you follow AMA guidelines), yet you would also have to admit that alcohol is not included in the Vatican definition of as drug as applied in the Catechism, as nebulous as it is. You would have to admit that nicotine is a drug as well, yet you would also have to admit that it is not included in that category according to the Catechism.
So the Catechism definition is simply not helpful for the discussion at hand because it is imprecise and subject to vastly different interpretations depending on the culture and the mindset of the person reading it.
As for the legal angle, the fact remains that in the American legal system a law is not binding if not enforced, nor if a jury will not convict (jury nullification). The Federal government has explicitly said that it will not enforce use laws on marijuana, so while the crime is on the books (like the wire-cutter law of Texas, or the dancing law of California) it is not necessarily an applied law. Regardless, advocating a change in law is not illegal, and the Washington State law is not illegal, so I’m not advocating the breaking of any law anyway.
Peace and God bless!
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Ghosty
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It wouldn’t matter, because any honest medical declaration would contradict the Catechism, since alcohol and nicotine are medically classified as addictive drugs in the U.S. (by both the AMA and the CDC), yet the Catechism permits it.
I’m not a physician, but I’ve worked in the medical field for some time and I’m familiar with the classifications and how they contradict Catholic teaching.
Peace and God bless!
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CopticChristian
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CopticChristian
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Ghost,CopticChristian: I appreciate your concern, but I’m not a drug user nor do I advocate drug use.
Your offer to advise one what is a drug and what isn’t is kind, but it’s not at all helpful to the question at hand. As a physician you certainly classify alcohol as a drug of addiction (at least if you follow AMA guidelines), yet you would also have to admit that alcohol is not included in the Vatican definition of as drug as applied in the Catechism, as nebulous as it is. You would have to admit that nicotine is a drug as well, yet you would also have to admit that it is not included in that category according to the Catechism.
So the Catechism definition is simply not helpful for the discussion at hand because it is imprecise and subject to vastly different interpretations depending on the culture and the mindset of the person reading it.
As for the legal angle, the fact remains that in the American legal system a law is not binding if not enforced, nor if a jury will not convict (jury nullification). The Federal government has explicitly said that it will not enforce use laws on marijuana, so while the crime is on the books (like the wire-cutter law of Texas, or the dancing law of California) it is not necessarily an applied law. Regardless, advocating a change in law is not illegal, and the Washington State law is not illegal, so I’m not advocating the breaking of any law anyway.
Peace and God bless!
The AMA says addiction is a disease and the APA says addiction is a disorder. I agree with neither. Addiction is habit. As it regards the issue of habit/addiction there are many things that can be the source of addiction/habit that cause problems. The list includes alcohol but that does not mean that drinking is in and of itself addictive.
I understand your concern with tobacco. Tobacco is the most addictive substance on the planet and as far as the Catechism it is not necessarily condoning it…you are required to constantly form your conscience. The Catechism is not the United States Pharmacopia nor is it Goodman and Gillman…The Catechism says nothing of Arsenic or drinking radiator coolant…but prudence and formation of your conscience should steer you clear.
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CopticChristian
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Ghost,
Alcohol is an antiseptic and is part of beverages that are not 100% alcohol. Now the Catechism says nothing about the proof of Alcohol. So because it says nothing about 90 proof or 180 proof do you blindly drink 180 proof until you die, of course not, because to you was given the gift of reason and the ability to form your conscience…Alcohol has the potential to be addictive or habit forming but it is not the substance that is the issue it is the person…so the classification has nothing to do with it.
I have no love for the AMA, so using the AMA has little credence with me.
The AMA classifies addiction as a disease based on faulty science and advertises AA/a religion as a source of help…
That same AMA has joined with the APA and with no science has accepted the politically correct DSM that removed homosexuality as a disorder and is trying to shut down Joseph Nicolosi in California because of religous overtones.
So the AMA approves of Religion/AA for addiction, and can be found on their website and wrongly calls it a disease based on faulty science and then using no science accepts the DSM claiming homosexuality is normal and tries to shut down Joseph Nicolosi claiming he has faulty science and has religous ties.:hypno:
That same AMA has no problem with SMART recovery or St. Gregory or St. Jude that deny that addiction is a disease and promote other than the 12 step religion. Is this making any sense to you?
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Jala
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This:
“Give me a list of substances and I will tell you which is a drug and which is not and under what circumstances…”
If anyone is going to enlighten me as to what is and isn’t a “drug” under which “circustances,” I’d prefer to hear it from someone who knows their butt from a hole in the ground.
Jala
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