Drinking alcohol and smoking pot – what are your thoughts?

[CopticChristian]

This:

“Give me a list of substances and I will tell you which is a drug and which is not and under what circumstances…”

If anyone is going to enlighten me as to what is and isn’t a “drug” under which “circustances,” I’d prefer to hear it from someone who knows their butt from a hole in the ground.

Jala

Jala,

Now you are talking. I think of the movie “The Jerk” and there is a scene where he is being taught about shinola…he learned. Now when it comes to holes in the ground I think I know the difference.

If you must know, my father is a graduate of USC school of Pharmacy and I am an MD graduate of UCSF. Both of us have seen the movie the jerk.

 

[Jala]

Jala,

Now you are talking. I think of the movie “The Jerk” and there is a scene where he is being taught about shinola…he learned. Now when it comes to holes in the ground I think I know the difference.

If you must know, my father is a graduate of USC school of Pharmacy and I am an MD graduate of UCSF. Both of us have seen the movie the jerk.

I’ve worked in pharmaceutical research for over 12 years. I’m pretty good with “shinola” and holes in the ground myself. And I loved that movie, and often sing the thermos song to my children.

Jala

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve worked in pharmaceutical research for over 12 years. I’m pretty good with “shinola” and holes in the ground myself. And I loved that movie, and often sing the thermos song to my children.

Jala

Jala,

Ok,

Now come clean…“worked in Pharmaceutical research”…what does that mean…?

Lab tech
PharmD
??

your turn

 

[Ghosty]

Ghost,

The AMA says addiction is a disease and the APA says addiction is a disorder. I agree with neither. Addiction is habit. As it regards the issue of habit/addiction there are many things that can be the source of addiction/habit that cause problems. The list includes alcohol but that does not mean that drinking is in and of itself addictive.

I understand your concern with tobacco. Tobacco is the most addictive substance on the planet and as far as the Catechism it is not necessarily condoning it…you are required to constantly form your conscience. The Catechism is not the United States Pharmacopia nor is it Goodman and Gillman…The Catechism says nothing of Arsenic or drinking radiator coolant…but prudence and formation of your conscience should steer you clear.

To be honest, if your simply offering your personal opinion and not following any generally accepted medical guidelines, like the CDC’s or the AMA’s (and I tend to agree with you in your assessments, BTW), then I don’t see what relevance your medical training is in telling people what is a drug and what isn’t. I don’t intend to disrespect your credentials, I just don’t see how they apply in this case.

I also agree that the Catechism isn’t necessarily condoning tobacco, nor alcohol for that matter.

My point is that any relevant classification of drugs based on physical properties would either include both alcohol and THC, or exclude both. They operate on different receptors of the brain, but their general experienced effects are quite similar in both type and degree (though THC is irrefutably less lethal, and as a physician I think you know this; I’ve treated lots of cases of alcohol poisoning, never of THC poisoning). The only classification that could objectively classify them as different, from the perspective of using the term “drugs”, would be legality, but that’s fluid and is precisely the change being discussed.

So I don’t find the Catechism paragraph at all helpful in this case, and I say that as someone who always goes to the Catechism first despite it often not being relevant to my tradition. What’s more, the Latin bishops of my state took a neutral stance on the marijuana law despite being willing to take an open stance against gay marriage, so the relevant local Church officials did not find the law worthy of remark one way or another.

With clear guidance from neither the Catechism nor the Bishops, I’m left with forming my own conscience on the matter. Since the principles that make drug use morally illicit seem to be the damage to the body and impairment of reason, I must evaluate each given substance according to what is clearly permitted:

Marijuana is at most as destructive as alcohol physically, though in my understanding it is actually less so; therefore marijuana can’t be prohibited on the basis of physical damage since alcohol is not considered physically damaging enough to be inherently morally evil.

Marijuana is at most as psychoactive as alcohol, though dosages are hard to quantify on the black-market. Used in moderate amounts marijuana does not impair the use of reason any more than alcohol; therefore marijuana can’t be prohibited on the basis of psychotropic properties, though excess is obviously forbidden on the same grounds as alcohol.

These alone wouldn’t push me to legalize, but consideration of the social and financial costs of prohibition of marijuana, and considering that by all objective moral standards it is equivalent with alcohol (which can be used in moderation), I support the legalization and regulation of marijuana. I do not support its use, though I don’t consider it inherently morally wrong, but I have taken a strong stance regarding its prohibition based on careful consideration of the teachings and traditions of the Church, especially my favorite theologian St. Thomas Aquinas.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Porknpie]

So I don’t find the Catechism paragraph at all helpful in this case, and I say that as someone who always goes to the Catechism first despite it often not being relevant to my tradition. What’s more, the Latin bishops of my state took a neutral stance on the marijuana law despite being willing to take an open stance against gay marriage, so the relevant local Church officials did not find the law worthy of remark one way or another.!

Ghostly,

Hit both links, I can not find a marijuana article and the open stance on same sex Marraige article read like this below,from the Washington State Bishops. Where’s the meat?

Conclusion
As teachers and Church leaders, we reaffirm the need to recognize and defend the rights of all people. However, redefining marriage as a means of dealing with important issues of equality and respect for persons with same-sex attraction will not achieve this goal and would overturn centuries of common law. We are deeply concerned about equality, justice and the good of society and the family. Our support for traditional marriage is not born of bias or intolerance toward anyone. Instead, our purpose is to support the legal definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman in order to promote the common good. We therefore urge Catholic people to uphold our consistent teaching on marriage for the good of the Church, society, spouses and their children. Finally, we reject the redefinition of marriage as a “civil contract between two persons.”

 

[jackson3997]

Drinking withholding getting drunk is fine. I can tell you that smoking pot is not, IMHO. I puffed for many, many years on and off and found nothing seriously wrong with it per se. That is until I wanted to take my faith seriously. It does affect your reason, it makes you less social, it can cloud judgement, and it is still not legal on the federal level, therefore should be avoided. It has a negative stigma attached to it. How can one one advance Gods kingdom when high? I think it can be scandalous, if your known as a recreational puffing Catholic. I tried this and my conscience couldn’t reconcile. It was either the pot or a serious Catholic. It took a good many confessions, and a wake up call but I got the message. Pray for me that serious Catholic keeps winning the battle. God Bless…

 

[Mickey]

The fact is that neither of us know what is being referred to,

You and I both know. There is no need to feign ignorance. Remove the scales from your eyes.

It’s not a useful guideline because it’s interpretation is up to the beholder.

It is a wonderful guide. You are upset because it does not jive with your opinion.

You casually write off the caffeine example,

Nice try. Coffee is not a hallucinogenic. In fact they are finding antioxidant properties in coffee. If you get a prescription to take a THC pill due to the effects of chemotherapy…I’m okay with that. But let me know when they discover the benefits of inhaling marijuana smoke into the lungs…and the health benefits of recreational use of marijuana.

my priests have said it’s not sinful in moderation.

I think that is unfotunate. Are they Latin or Melkite?

As I’ve said many times I don’t advocate its use, I advocate its legalization.

The vast majority of priests and bishops do not advocate its use or legalization.

“It is true that there is a distinct difference between the use of drugs and the use of alcohol: while a moderate use of the latter as a drink does not offend moral principles, only its abuse can be condemned;** instead, the use of drugs is always** unlawful because it implies an unjustified and unreasonable renunciation of thinking, desiring and acting as a free person”
Pope John Paul II

 

[Mickey]

yet you would also have to admit that alcohol is not included in the Vatican definition of as drug as applied in the Catechism, as nebulous as it is.

I see. If the CCC does not support your stance…it is nebulous.

So the Catechism definition is simply not helpful for the discussion at hand

Same as above.

Regardless, advocating a change in law is not illegal, and the Washington State law is not illegal, so I’m not advocating the breaking of any law anyway.

It does not matter if the world classifies it as legal or not. It is a violation of the Divine Law…

 

[Mickey]

Addiction is habit.

Yes. Many things can be addiction. Pornography, video games, etc.

I understand your concern with tobacco. Tobacco is the most addictive substance on the planet and as far as the Catechism it is not necessarily condoning it…you are required to constantly form your conscience. The Catechism is not the United States Pharmacopia nor is it Goodman and Gillman…The Catechism says nothing of Arsenic or drinking radiator coolant…but prudence and formation of your conscience should steer you clear.

Good points Coptic. I smoked for 27 years and quitting was the most difficult thing I’ve ever done in my life (six years and counting). The urge returns once in a great while. My spiritual father has told me that smoking is sinful due to the damage done to one’s health. That helps me to fight the occasional urge.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Recreational is a slippery slope when one first decides what and when to indulge, and then, when recreational becomes a vice then habit? I’m a bit skeptical about the theory. Moderation is another I’m not a fan of.

 

[Mickey]

What’s more, the Latin bishops of my state took a neutral stance on the marijuana law

Uh…that does not mean they are pro-legalization of marijuana…or pro-marijuana in any form. It means that they expect the people to have a properly formed conscience on the matter.

With clear guidance from neither the Catechism nor the Bishops,

I beg to differ. You have not shown one example of a bishop or a priest (with the exception of your priest from Seattle…so you say) which condones the use or legalization or moral acceptance of “recreational” marijuana. And the CCC refutes your opinion…whether you like it or not.

I’m left with forming my own conscience on the matter.

This is key.

marijuana can’t be prohibited on the basis of physical damage since alcohol is not considered physically damaging enough to be inherently morally evil.

You are not inhaling alcohol deeply into the lungs. Also, there is still much unkown regarding the effect of marijuana on the brain.

Used in moderate amounts

There is no such thing. People smoke weed to get high. You smoke…you get high. That is called intoxication. People can have a drink and not get drunk. Your theory about regulating THC levels is bogus. Even if that ocurred…it would not work. In the black market…as it exists today…people desire good weed. They will not buy the junky “dirt” weed. They want the Hawaiian buds…or the hydroponically grown Caifornia buds. This is the stuff that sells…and this is the stuff that will get you stoned on one hit. And this is what they will demand. If legalized, you will have generations of stoned out unmotivated pot heads who now have easy access to legal weed. I think your support for this issue is shameful. It cannot, and will never, have the potential to be used in moderation.

I support the legalization and regulation of marijuana.

How very sad.

 

[epan]

Ghost,

The AMA says addiction is a disease and the APA says addiction is a disorder. I agree with neither. Addiction is habit. As it regards the issue of habit/addiction there are many things that can be the source of addiction/habit that cause problems. The list includes alcohol but that does not mean that drinking is in and of itself addictive.

I understand your concern with tobacco. Tobacco is the most addictive substance on the planet and as far as the Catechism it is not necessarily condoning it…you are required to constantly form your conscience. The Catechism is not the United States Pharmacopia nor is it Goodman and Gillman…The Catechism says nothing of Arsenic or drinking radiator coolant…but prudence and formation of your conscience should steer you clear.

Hi Coptic - When you say that, “addiction is habit”, are you not only referring to the behavioral aspects? I think I could make a case for physiological changes that follow from the behavior, when we are talking substance abuse, which is the topic here. Of course, the APA is concerned with behavior. The AMA might be more concerned with the physical aspects. I mean, if an alcoholic comes to you asking for help with withdrawal, wouldn’t you manage the physical aspects first, and then worry about the behavioral aspects (other than cutting off the booze right away)?

 

[Mickey]

Drinking withholding getting drunk is fine. I can tell you that smoking pot is not, IMHO. I puffed for many, many years on and off and found nothing seriously wrong with it per se. That is until I wanted to take my faith seriously. It does affect your reason, it makes you less social, it can cloud judgement, and it is still not legal on the federal level, therefore should be avoided. It has a negative stigma attached to it. How can one one advance Gods kingdom when high? I think it can be scandalous, if your known as a recreational puffing Catholic. I tried this and my conscience couldn’t reconcile. It was either the pot or a serious Catholic. It took a good many confessions, and a wake up call but I got the message. Pray for me that serious Catholic keeps winning the battle. God Bless…

Prayers and blessings to you for your strength and good sense. It is indeed a spritual battle on many levels. It definitely affects your reason, clouds judgment, and makes you less social. It also leads to sloth and gluttony (laziness and excessive hunger). Paranoia is another side effect in many people as well as short term memory loss. Again, much is unknown about the effects of marijuana on the brain. I also belive that it opens the door to experimentation with other drugs.

And my personal opinion, is that it opens the door to legion.

 

[Jala]

Now come clean…“worked in Pharmaceutical research”…what does that mean…?

Lab tech
PharmD
??

your turn

I’m currently a statistical programmer for pharmaceutical trials. I take data from drug studies, and create the stats tables and graphs showing (hopefully!) that a drug is safe and effective, which a pharmaceutical company would then submit to the FDA to get their drug approved for the market. The company I work for now creates contracts with different pharmaceutical companies, so I’m only working for one drug company (start listing them in your head; it will probably be in your top 3), but work on numerous drugs. In previous jobs, I’ve worked on drugs from just about every pharmaceutical company you can name.

In the past, I did database programming for a central lab, where most of my work was with statins (but I did have the occasional cancer study). Oddly enough, it wasn’t my programming skill that got me the job–I was about to graduate college and I had never heard of the programming language that I was to use–but rather my experience as a vet tech (including plenty of lab work). Even though I wasn’t being hired to work in the lab, they thought it was a huge plus that I knew the difference between a chemistry panel and a hematology panel.

(Bragging rights: name the top 3 statins you can think of. My previous company helped bring 2 of them to market; I personally worked on one of them.)

At my current company, I was originally assigned to CNS drugs, but transferred to a different department a few months ago to work on a wider variety.

My own surgeon was quite unhappy with me when I told him I had quit taking a certain drug because I was concerned about side effects. He told me not to believe “all the hype.” I told him I spend 8 hours a day creating tables of data of Adverse Events for drug trials. He told me I knew too much (he meant it as an insult.)

Jala

 

[GaryTaylor]

I mean, if an alcoholic comes to you asking for help with withdrawal, wouldn’t you manage the physical aspects first, and then worry about the behavioral aspects (other than cutting off the booze right away)?

Both

 

[CopticChristian]

To be honest, if your simply offering your personal opinion and not following any generally accepted medical guidelines, like the CDC’s or the AMA’s (and I tend to agree with you in your assessments, BTW), then I don’t see what relevance your medical training is in telling people what is a drug and what isn’t. I don’t intend to disrespect your credentials, I just don’t see how they apply in this case.

I also agree that the Catechism isn’t necessarily condoning tobacco, nor alcohol for that matter.

So I don’t find the Catechism paragraph at all helpful in this case, and I say that as someone who always goes to the Catechism first despite it often not being relevant to my tradition. What’s more, the Latin bishops of my state took a neutral stance on the marijuana law despite being willing to take an open stance against gay marriage, so the relevant local Church officials did not find the law worthy of remark one way or another.

Marijuana is at most as destructive as alcohol physically, though in my understanding it is actually less so; therefore marijuana can’t be prohibited on the basis of physical damage since alcohol is not considered physically damaging enough to be inherently morally evil.

Marijuana is at most as psychoactive as alcohol, though dosages are hard to quantify on the black-market. Used in moderate amounts marijuana does not impair the use of reason any more than alcohol; therefore marijuana can’t be prohibited on the basis of psychotropic properties, though excess is obviously forbidden on the same grounds as alcohol.

I do not support its use, though I don’t consider it inherently morally wrong, but I have taken a strong stance regarding its prohibition based on careful consideration of the teachings and traditions of the Church, especially my favorite theologian St. Thomas Aquinas.

Peace and God bless!

Ghosty,

Your opinion is personal opinion. My opinion is educated and informed and based on knowledge, training and experience. It does not take a brain surgeon to understand classification of drug or no drug. Convince yourself of what it is you choose to do. Look here…go to this site and research what is being written about Marijuana…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=marijuana

Cannabis, tobacco and domestic fumes intake are associated with nasopharyngeal carcinoma in North Africa.

Feng BJ, Khyatti M, Ben-Ayoub W, Dahmoul S, Ayad M, Maachi F, Bedadra W, Abdoun M, Mesli S, Bakkali H, Jalbout M, Hamdi-Cherif M, Boualga K, Bouaouina N, Chouchane L, Benider A, Ben-Ayed F, Goldgar DE, Corbex M.
Source
Genetic Epidemiology Group, International Agency for Research on Cancer, 69372 Lyon, France. bingjian.feng@hsc.utah.edu
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The lifestyle risk factors for nasopharyngeal carcinoma (NPC) in North Africa are not known.
CONCLUSION:
Tobacco, cannabis and domestic cooking fumes intake are risk factors for NPC in western North Africa./

QUOTE]

COPD. 2012 Aug;9(4):367-74. Epub 2012 Apr 12.
Impact of changes in regular use of marijuana and/or tobacco on chronic bronchitis.
Tashkin DP, Simmons MS, Tseng CH.
Source
Departments of Medicine, David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Los Angeles, California 90095, USA. dtashkin@mednet.ucla.edu
Abstract
We found that continuing smokers of either marijuana or tobacco had a significantly increased likelihood of having chronic bronchitis at follow-up compared to both never smokers and former smokers. On the other hand, former smokers of either substance were no more likely to have chronic respiratory symptoms at follow-up than never smokers. These findings demonstrate the benefit of marijuana smoking cessation in resolving pre-existing symptoms of chronic bronchitis./

QUOTE]

Fortschr Neurol Psychiatr. 2012 Nov;80(11):635-43. doi: 10.1055/s-0032-1325415. Epub 2012 Nov 8.
[Can cannabis use increase the risk for schizophrenic psychoses?].
[Article in German]
Bugra H, Rapp C, Studerus E, Aston J, Borgwardt S, Riecher-Rössler A.
Source
Zentrum für Gender Research und Früherkennung, Universitäre Psychiatrische Kliniken, Universitätsspital Basel, Schweiz.
Abstract
Background: In recent years, cannabis has been increasingly discussed as one of the most Conclusions: We have concluded that although a causal relationship between cannabis use and schizophrenic psychoses cannot be definitely proven, the available evidence strongly supports its plausibility. Furthermore, the results of the review indicate that cannabis might cause psychosis especially in individuals with a predisposition for schizophrenia and in adolescents with an early onset of cannabis use

.

So, smoking marijuana may be associated with an increase in nasopharyngeal cancer and these are lovely patients, Chronic Bronchitis…a hacking constant cough and sputum production with frequent risk for illness like pneumonia, possible psychosis since you may or may not know you are at risk for Schizophrenia…and

If you smoke marijuana and drive you get a DUI
A conviction with Marijuana excludes you from student government loans
testing positive for Marijuana may cost you your job…

So, the Catechism is not your source for information and you have an inclination to believe that medical societies dictate something…reality is what I dictate…please smoke marijuana, have at it.,…but please know that you are putting yourself in a risky place and anyone that follows your advice should realize the same…as for me and my house…I will serve…

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Coptic - When you say that, “addiction is habit”, are you not only referring to the behavioral aspects? I think I could make a case for physiological changes that follow from the behavior, when we are talking substance abuse, which is the topic here. Of course, the APA is concerned with behavior. The AMA might be more concerned with the physical aspects. I mean, if an alcoholic comes to you asking for help with withdrawal, wouldn’t you manage the physical aspects first, and then worry about the behavioral aspects (other than cutting off the booze right away)?

Epan,

Make whatever case you want. There are two schools of thought.

Addiction is disease, based on a faulty study by Jehlinek, outlined in Peele, The Diseasing of America, and pioneered and promoted by the AMA and the National Council of Alcohol. What kind of disease? A spiritual disease. Acceptance of this paradigm equates to 12 step/AA religion, a religion declared to be a religion by the 7th & 9th Circuit Court of Appeals…

and

Addiction is not a disease as seen by those like Baldwin Research, St. Jude, St. Gregory and Stanton Peele, Phd…author of The Truth about Addiction. Baldwin Research outlines the process of thought here and if you go to St. Jude and St Gregory websites they dispel the disease paradigm with fact.

baldwinresearch.com/

I agree every habit can cause physiologic issues that are short lived. Tobacco once ceased is gone in 72 hours from the body. Alcohol, unless taken for a prolonged time has a spectrum of shakes, cravings…and then of course then there are those that drink for a long time that withdraw…and the rare DT and Seizures…Peele makes the point that withdrawal from opiates and the like is vastly over advertised as horrible and points out that many stop these substances on their own…you should read his book.

I unfortunately/fortunately have experience with addicts of all types in hospital. I recall many nights sitting at the bedside of a Chronic Alcoholic, injecting Valium 10mg every 10 minutes until they quieted and of course the Barb addicts that were given alternative drugs asking for more every day…one Senior Physician asked…“would you be happy with coma?”…and then of course the sad teen prostitute heroin user dying from cotton lung.

Most alcoholics don’t come looking for help from withdrawal…many don’t know they are addicted, they find themselves needing help for withdrawal by way of ambulance, jail, or intervention…and unfortunately intervention usually leads to the 12 step religion…

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m currently a statistical programmer for pharmaceutical trials. I take data from drug studies, and create the stats tables and graphs showing (hopefully!) that a drug is safe and effective, which a pharmaceutical company would then submit to the FDA to get their drug approved for the market. The company I work for now creates contracts with different pharmaceutical companies, so I’m only working for one drug company (start listing them in your head; it will probably be in your top 3), but work on numerous drugs. In previous jobs, I’ve worked on drugs from just about every pharmaceutical company you can name.

In the past, I did database programming for a central lab, where most of my work was with statins (but I did have the occasional cancer study). Oddly enough, it wasn’t my programming skill that got me the job–I was about to graduate college and I had never heard of the programming language that I was to use–but rather my experience as a vet tech (including plenty of lab work). Even though I wasn’t being hired to work in the lab, they thought it was a huge plus that I knew the difference between a chemistry panel and a hematology panel.

(Bragging rights: name the top 3 statins you can think of. My previous company helped bring 2 of them to market; I personally worked on one of them.)

At my current company, I was originally assigned to CNS drugs, but transferred to a different department a few months ago to work on a wider variety.

My own surgeon was quite unhappy with me when I told him I had quit taking a certain drug because I was concerned about side effects. He told me not to believe “all the hype.” I told him I spend 8 hours a day creating tables of data of Adverse Events for drug trials. He told me I knew too much (he meant it as an insult.)

Jala

Jala,

So then you would be familiar with holes in the ground and Shinola and would respect that my ability to discern the same would be on par with your ability and perhaps a tad better.

 

[epan]

Epan,

Make whatever case you want. There are two schools of thought.

Addiction is disease, based on a faulty study by Jehlinek, outlined in Peele, The Diseasing of America, and pioneered and promoted by the AMA and the National Council of Alcohol. What kind of disease? A spiritual disease. Acceptance of this paradigm equates to 12 step/AA religion, a religion declared to be a religion by the 7th & 9th Circuit Court of Appeals…

and

Addiction is not a disease as seen by those like Baldwin Research, St. Jude, St. Gregory and Stanton Peele, Phd…author of The Truth about Addiction. Baldwin Research outlines the process of thought here and if you go to St. Jude and St Gregory websites they dispel the disease paradigm with fact.

baldwinresearch.com/

I agree every habit can cause physiologic issues that are short lived. Tobacco once ceased is gone in 72 hours from the body. Alcohol, unless taken for a prolonged time has a spectrum of shakes, cravings…and then of course then there are those that drink for a long time that withdraw…and the rare DT and Seizures…Peele makes the point that withdrawal from opiates and the like is vastly over advertised as horrible and points out that many stop these substances on their own…you should read his book.

I unfortunately/fortunately have experience with addicts of all types in hospital. I recall many nights sitting at the bedside of a Chronic Alcoholic, injecting Valium 10mg every 10 minutes until they quieted and of course the Barb addicts that were given alternative drugs asking for more every day…one Senior Physician asked…“would you be happy with coma?”…and then of course the sad teen prostitute heroin user dying from cotton lung.

Most alcoholics don’t come looking for help from withdrawal…many don’t know they are addicted, they find themselves needing help for withdrawal by way of ambulance, jail, or intervention…and unfortunately intervention usually leads to the 12 step religion…

My knowledge of addiction is cursory. From what I do know, I would agree with you that it is a spiritual problem.

What do you make of the thinking that there may be some genetic predisposition?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Maybe legalization of pot is not a religious issue, but rather a secular issue? Christians have a conscience before God; if a Christian believes smoking pot is sinful for them, they shouldn’t smoke it. Why should non-Christians be bond or controlled by religious views on issues like this, as well as other contemporary debatable issues?

Legalization of pot would be very beneficial on the war on drugs. Some of us are from the west coast and are very aware of increased drug cartel power and violence in Mexico. I don’t think America is winning the war on drugs.