Eastern Catholics Uncomfortable with De-Latinization

[Orthodoc]

[And let me finish with, True Orthodoxy lies in Communion with Rome.]

If that is true than why the aversion to any identity that identifies that communion with Rome in any way, shape, or form? Why the unwilligness to admit that ‘communion with Rome’ also means accepting Rome as the final authority and, with the exception of the filioque, the theology that Rome proclaims and defends?

Orthodoc

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

[And let me finish with, True Orthodoxy lies in Communion with Rome.]

If that is true than why the aversion to any identity that identifies that communion with Rome in any way, shape, or form? Why the unwilligness to admit that ‘communion with Rome’ also means accepting Rome as the final authority and, with the exception of the filioque, the theology that Rome proclaims and defends?

Orthodoc

You must have me confused with someone else as I have no such aversion to the first and as for the second, you are just clouded by your anger to understand.

And now I go back to ignoring you and the others of your ilk, only way to stay charitable.

 

[Joe_Monahan]

David B:

I know there has been a push for quite a few years now for Eastern Catholics to take back their traditions and heritage and to discard most of the Latinizations that were forced on it to “fit in” with the US Latin Rite. Is there any resistance among Eastern Catholics to ditch Western devotions like Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, Stations of the Cross, and the Rosary?

The question that David posted in opening this thread was an interesting one (albeit it might be more properly situated elsewhere than in the Orthodoxy subforum - but I’m going to leave it here for the moment) and, as Catholics and Orthodox who participate on pan-Eastern boards know, it is a real issue.

The thread has begun to drift significantly from David’s query. I’m not sure that there is a lot more to be said on the topic, but I’m inclined to allow another opportunity for it to be discussed. If subsequent posts don’t reflect a return to the topic, the thread will be closed.

Joe Monahan

Notice that, for the moment, I’m smiling

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Joe Monahan:

Originally Posted by David B:

I know there has been a push for quite a few years now for Eastern Catholics to take back their traditions and heritage and to discard most of the Latinizations that were forced on it to “fit in” with the US Latin Rite. Is there any resistance among Eastern Catholics to ditch Western devotions like Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, Stations of the Cross, and the Rosary?

The question that David posted in opening this thread was an interesting one (albeit it might be more properly situated elsewhere than in the Orthodoxy subforum - but I’m going to leave it here for the moment) and, as Catholics and Orthodox who participate on pan-Eastern boards know, it is a real issue.

The thread has begun to drift significantly from David’s query. I’m not sure that there is a lot more to be said on the topic, but I’m inclined to allow another opportunity for it to be discussed. If subsequent posts don’t reflect a return to the topic, the thread will be closed.

Joe Monahan

Notice that, for the moment, I’m smiling

I will take the advice and try to steer this back.

David B,
(from another David B)
As I said earlier, there is some resistance from the older crowd as they grew up with these things so they do not truely realize that they are not proper to our traditions.

That being said, I do not think we ever did Benediction as a Latin would know it for the main reason that our Eucharist is of levened bread and will not fit in a monstrance.

There is a service that we do that resembles Benediction but I do believe it is part of our tradition.

The main thrust is not only to remove latinizations but to replace them with the devotions/liturgy/service that they supplanted.

The younger generation is moving forward on this for the most part but we must not move to fast. These changes need to be done in a pastoral manner.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Joe Monahan:

The question that David posted in opening this thread was an interesting one (albeit it might be more properly situated elsewhere than in the Orthodoxy subforum - but I’m going to leave it here for the moment

Would it be appropriate for the Byzantine Catholics to have their own Byzantine Catholic folder, rather than being included with the Orthodox and the Muslims in the “Non-Catholic Religions”?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fr Ambrose:

Would it be appropriate for the Byzantine Catholics to have their own Byzantine Catholic folder, rather than being included with the Orthodox and the Muslims in the “Non-Catholic Religions”?

I would say no as we are Catholics.

Questions like this should appear in the appropriate topic. For this one, I would think Liturgy & Sacraments or Spirituality.

We do not need to be ghettoize any further.

 

[Diaconia]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I must support my brother’s take on this:

ByzCath:

I would say no as we are Catholics.

Questions like this should appear in the appropriate topic. For this one, I would think Liturgy & Sacraments or Spirituality.

We do not need to be ghettoize any further.

Catholics who are members of Eastern Churches are time and time again always thought of as an after-thought.

Suspicion, disrespect and most of all, a tremendous amount of MISUNDERSTANDING seems to accompany any discussion that involves Eastern Christians (whether Orthodox or Catholic).

These threads are consistently sprinkled with animosity, distrust and sins against charity. Why is the term “uniate” still being thrown around? My spiritual father taught me long ago that term is about like calling someone a “nigger.”

I myself am a latin rite deacon, but with a particular love and respect for all things Eastern. While in the seminary, one of my finest professors was a bi-ritual priest who taught me so much about the universality of the Church.

Catholics of any Eastern Church ought to be very uncomfortable with latinizations, not de-latinizations.

Take back your traditions, take back your pride, and certainly take back your churches (meaning buildings). Stations of the Cross, holy water fonts and the like have no business in Byzantine churches, for instance.

John Paul was completely supportive of Byzantines being Byzantines, Benedict XVI will be just as suppportive, in fact, perhaps even more so.

Not only should their not be a Byzantine ghetto, I would argue that “Eastern Orthodox” have no business being grouped together with Muslims & Mormons. Neither Mormons not Muslims are Christians. Neither are Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why are our Orthodox brothers and sisters sitting nearer them then they are to us?

In my opinion, “Eastern Christianity” (regardless of Orthodox or Catholic) ought to be a MAIN forum off the main page. Churches that possess valid orders, celebrate the Divine Liturgy, and in fact are a very essential and needed component of the mystical body of Christ (confer JPII’s "both East & West lungs analogy) ought to be acknowledged in a special way.

In the service of Him who walked among us,

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

I absolutely agree with your post!

ByzCath:

I would say no as we are Catholics.

Questions like this should appear in the appropriate topic. For this one, I would think Liturgy & Sacraments or Spirituality.

We do not need to be ghettoize any further.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Diaconia:

These threads are consistently sprinkled with animosity, distrust and sins against charity. Why is the term “uniate” still being thrown around? My spiritual father taught me long ago that term is about like calling someone a “nigger.”

Dear Father Deacon,

Only in some quarters in the States.

Are you referring to my recent post? I was quoting a Catholic Answers article which uses the word “Uniate.”

Theologians and scholars, both Catholic and Orthodox, use it.
See "Orthodox-Catholic relations at an impasse after Baltimore talks"
by Professor Waclaw Hryniewicz, a Catholic theologian and director of the Ecumenical Institute at Poland’s Catholic University of Lublin
wfn.org/2000/08/msg00054.html

It was used time and again at the 2000 “Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church” in Baltimore, both as the title of lectures and throughout official documents.

It is used by the Vatican. And used by Cardinal Kasper.

Also, see Dr Alex Roman’s article on the use of “Uniate” -he has no problem with it and he is himself a Ukrainian Uniate.
"Use of the Word "Uniate"
unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/useoftheword.htm

In short, the world has no problem with the term but in the strange PC world of the States it seems to have been arbitrarily designated as non-PC.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fr Ambrose:

In short, the world has no problem with the term but in the strange PC world of the States it seems to have been arbitrarily designated as non-PC.

Fr Ambrose,
Just as the n word that Fr Deacon spoke of is used within the African American Community but when the use of it by those outside of that community is frowned upon.

I do not think it is an issue of Political Correctness. That, calling something PC, is now a new form of PC.

You are aware that the term is seen as derogatory by many here and as a guest it would be polite not to use it rather than attempt to lecture us on its use.

Now saying that, I have no problem with the word. I acutally take pride in it most especially when others attempt to use it in a derogatory way.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

ByzCath:

You are aware that the term is seen as derogatory by many here and as a guest it would be polite not to use it rather than attempt to lecture us on its use.

If the Vatican uses it, if your bishops use it (the Catholic-Orthodox International Theological Conference, Baltimore), if *Catholic Answers * uses it (see catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd00622.htm ), if internationally recognised Catholic theologians and ecumenical representatives use it, if Ukrainian Catholics use it, etc., etc., then it cannot be derogatory and I am not sure of the authority of trying to forbid us to use it here when it is used throughout the Catholic world and at the highest levels. That is tantamount to a criticism of the Vatican and of the Magisterium which after all employs the term.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fr Ambrose:

If the Vatican uses it, if your bishops use it (the Catholic-Orthodox International Theological Conference, Baltimore), if *Catholic Answers * uses it (see catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd00622.htm ), if internationally recognised Catholic theologians and ecumenical representatives use it, if Ukrainian Catholics use it, etc., etc., then it cannot be not derogatory and I am not sure of the wisdom of trying to forbid us to use it here when it is used throughout the Catholic world and at the highest levels. That is tantamount to a criticism of the Vatican and of the Magisterium which after all employs the term.

Again, this goes to my analogy of the African American community and their use of the n word.

I know for a fact that you would never use that word, even though they use it.

So if our Catholic Community uses the word, why do you not understand that many take it as derogatory when used by the Orthodox, especially when a large number of them use it in just such a manner?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

ByzCath:

So if our Catholic Community uses the word, why do you not understand that many take it as derogatory when used by the Orthodox, especially when a large number of them use it in just such a manner?

Many Orthodox use the word “Pope” and “Latin” and “Roman” and “Immaculate Conception” in a perjorative manner. But we can’t forbide them to use these words.

Seriously, if the Catholic Magisterium, your bishops and your theologians and your ecumenical people use the word, I refuse to be muzzled and censored and told it must be expunged from my vocabulary. There is such a thing as freedom of speech.

In point of fact I don’t use the word very often but I think there is no need to play word games and set up rules where some words may be used by Catholics and not be used by non-Catholics. Is there a list of words which the Vatican has forbidden to be used by the Orthodox? Why did the Vatican allow the Orthodox and the Catholics to use the word a thousand times at the Baltimore International Conference in 2000, in the lectures and in the printed material?

 

[StMarkEofE]

Fr Ambrose:

Many Orthodox use the word “Pope” and “Latin” and “Roman” and “Immaculate Conception” in a perjorative manner. But we can’t forbide them to use these words.

Seriously, if the Catholic Magisterium, your bishops and your theologians and your ecumenical people use the word, I refuse to be muzzled and censored and told it must be expunged from my vocabulary. There is such a thing as freedom of speech.

In point of fact I don’t use the word very often but I think there is no need to play word games and set up rules where some words may be used by Catholics and not be used by non-Catholics. Is there a list of words which the Vatican has forbidden to be used by the Orthodox? Why did the Vatican allow the Orthodox and the Catholics to use the word a thousand times at the Baltimore International Conference in 2000, in the lectures and in the printed material?

My first response would be for the Byzantines, an Eastern Catholics to petition Rome to revise their use of vocabulary and then you would have a valid argument against any non-Roman using terms which apparently cause insult. I have read on several occassions when Rome has refered to the Eastern Catholic church as something else than it is. (trying here not to use THAT word) So it would be wise to let the Vatican know of your disapproval. This would be a first good step.

StMarkEofE

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fr Ambrose:

Many Orthodox use the word “Pope” and “Latin” and “Roman” and “Immaculate Conception” in a perjorative manner. But we can’t forbide them to use these words.

Seriously, if the Catholic Magisterium, your bishops and your theologians and your ecumenical people use the word, I refuse to be muzzled and censored and told it must be expunged from my vocabulary. There is such a thing as freedom of speech.

In point of fact I don’t use the word very often but I think there is no need to play word games and set up rules where some words may be used by Catholics and not be used by non-Catholics. Is there a list of words which the Vatican has forbidden to be used by the Orthodox? Why did the Vatican allow the Orthodox and the Catholics to use the word a thousand times at the Baltimore International Conference in 2000, in the lectures and in the printed material?

Its not a matter of word games. Its a matter of common curtesy, when you know it bothers people you refrain from using it.

But I guess that is expecting to much seeing the lengths one will go to justify it.

This has nothing to do with this topic though so I will leave it alone.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

StMarkEofE:

My first response would be for the Byzantines, an Eastern Catholics to petition Rome to revise their use of vocabulary and then you would have a valid argument against any non-Roman using terms which apparently cause insult. I have read on several occassions when Rome has refered to the Eastern Catholic church as something else than it is. (trying here not to use THAT word) So it would be wise to let the Vatican know of your disapproval. This would be a first good step.

StMarkEofE

And this from someone who tells us we should keep the latinizations.

This is just another example why our issues should not be discussed in this forum but rather should be discussed in the Catholic sections among our brethren.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Some Catholics are proud of the term and inscribe it on the foundation stones of their churches.

See photograph at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_rite#The_Term_Uniat.5Be.5D

Belarussians are proud to call themselves Uniates…

*“Father, we are Uniates, and would like to talk to you later.” *

belarusians.co.uk/catholic/history-church.html

But do some research and you will find that it is only among some people in the States where this term is being equated with ‘nigger.’ Internationally it is used by Catholics and they are not ashamed nor offended by it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fr Ambrose:

But do some research and you will find that it is only among some people in the States where this term is being equated with ‘nigger.’ Internationally it is used by Catholics and they are not ashamed nor offended by it.

That seems to be part of the issue that you can not grasp.

I know of no one who is ashamed nor offended by it. What we dislike is the derogatory manner it is used in by many Orthodox.

But again, I guess common curtesy means nothing when one is just out to win points.

 

[StMarkEofE]

ByzCath:

And this from someone who tells us we should keep the latinizations.

This is just another example why our issues should not be discussed in this forum but rather should be discussed in the Catholic sections among our brethren.

I still think that since you are under the auspices of Rome that you should keep the Latinizations. You seem to be comfortable with them so why not??? The “u” word is used by Rome frequently so I naturally thought that this was a latinization. However, as I mentioned before, if you feel this latinization is offensive then you much petition Rome to refraim from using in in official capacity.

StMarkEofE

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

ByzCath:

That seems to be part of the issue that you can not grasp.

I know of no one who is ashamed nor offended by it. What we dislike is the derogatory manner it is used in by many Orthodox.

But again, I guess common curtesy means nothing when one is just out to win points.

Excuse me, but what is your issue here? I always use “uniate” courteously. I use it accurately and in its historical context.