Eastern Catholics Uncomfortable with De-Latinization

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Something from Dr Alexander Roman who is quoted on the Forum as an expert on Uniate/Greek Catholic things.

Use of the Word "Uniate"

unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/useoftheword.htm

As a Ukrainian Catholic, I don’t know why the word “Uniate” or “Greaco-Uniate” would be offensive to anyone. It is, in fact, the earliest name for those members of the Orthodox Church who came into union with Rome at the Union of Brest in 1596. There are publications dating from that time that (proudly) use that term. Another early name for us then was “Orthodox in union with Rome” or “Orthodox Uniate.”

Throughout our evolution as a Church, our name changed and developed. The Austro-Hungarian Empire preferred the term “Greaco-Catholic” and this is in vogue today among Ukrainian Catholics of the Byzantine Rite in Ukraine.

What is in a name? Well, spiritual identity for one thing. We need a name that underscores our Byzantine Rite and heritage. The Byzantine Catholics have done a marvellous job in this department and I wish that Ukrainian Catholics could follow suit.

The fact that “Uniate” has taken on a pejorative term is not only something that derives from certain Orthodox circles, but also from Roman Catholic ones. Roman Catholic ecumenical commissions studying the history of the Union of Brest and others have come to the conclusion that such “Unia” were historically wrong for the Roman Church to pursue as they divided Churches and peoples (see the Catholic Encyclopaedia on this topic). Roman Catholic scholars involved in ecumenism with the East have also dismissed the “Unia” as a model for any future Church agreements on unity.

At least the term “Uniate” reminds me of my Orthodox heritage and ethos, and those of my ancestors before me, which should still be part of our spiritual experience as Eastern-Rite Catholics. Even His Holiness the Pope, in celebrating the 400th anniversary of the Union of Brest said that the Union is that old and did not make any statements about the “existing” union prior to AD1054. Why did His Holiness say that the Union is only 400 years old?

Because he spoke the truth! Yes, the Churches were one in the first Millennium. The issues of the Filioque and others deriving from that fundamental issue in understanding the Trinity still divide us and must be addressed before a real resolution to Church unity can take place.

As for Ecumenism itself, I find the Orthodox perspective much more spiritually refreshing than that of the Roman Catholic Church or the Protestant churches. The Orthodox will not water down or else compromise, or else be seen to be compromising, their Faith. My point is, if you believe that something is true, then don’t try to hide the fact for the sake of ill-advised ecumenical “togetherness.” This doesn’t mean that ecumenical discussion can’t take place. It just means that differences of faith must be taken seriously. I have met Roman Catholics who have left their Church over this and other issues. They are now Orthodox Christians of Western Rites.

In terms of terminology to describe the Ukrainian Catholic Church, there is no accepted name for us.

Originally, those Orthodox bishops and their flock who came into communion with Rome at the Union of Brest-Litovsk, were called either “Orthodox in union with Rome” or else “Greco-Uniates.”

I believe that the term “Uniate” acquired a pejorative connotation during this century as a reaction against “creeping Uniatism” and such expressions and feelings toward these Churches.

As a term, it simply means “united.” As a matter of fact, members of the formerly excommunicated Old Rite Orthodox Believers who came into union with the Moscow Patriarchate beginning in the nineteenth century were also called “uniates” or “United Believers.”

I can see “Uniate” being pejorative in the sense that it doesn’t provide for an integral Church Identity for members of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. But, then again, neither does the term “Ukrainian (Greek) Catholic.” Remember, that the term “Greek” in our title itself comes from the former “Greco-Uniate” term of the seventeenth century. Also, at the beginning of this century, “Greek Catholic” was a term adopted by many Orthodox communities in North America.

“Ukrainian Catholic” or even the newly proposed “Kyivan Catholic” really does little or nothing, from my point of view, to underline our Eastern Church Identity and our historical, ecclesial roots. I prefer the proposition of others regarding the term “Orthodox Catholic.” Russians in union with Rome refer to themselves this way ( I think they may even call themselves, “Catholic Orthodox”). In terms of theological, liturgical and other areas, there is minimal difference between our two Churches, although that “minimal” is still enormous enough to divide us. With the term “Orthodox Catholic,” we can begin a real Eastern Rite reform in our Church with a beginning of an appreciation for the spiritual riches of the East.

I don’t want to be a “Uniate.” I want to be fully Orthodox and Catholic from the perspective of the Church Fathers of the first 1000 years of the Church.

Dr. Alexander Roman alex@unicorne.org
 
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ByzCath:
This is just another example why our issues should not be discussed in this forum but rather should be discussed in the Catholic sections among our brethren.
But wouldn’t there be the likelihood that in the general Catholic sections your messages would attract little interest. The regular Roman Catholic is either not too interested or not too well informed. In an odd sort of way, you are better of with us in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section where you can be sure of a good response.
 
a couple byzantine divine liturgies i went to had kneeling during the triasgon or sanctus, with a women reading the first lesson. at a syro-malabar liturgy, they had a women reader and the priest faced ad populum or towards the people.

i think women readers and mass facing the people is generally a abuse in the latin rite as well. as for the kneeling, i like standing better, but the priest was very old and i’m sure he and some of the parishoners are just use to it.
 
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StMarkEofE:
I still think that since you are under the auspices of Rome that you should keep the Latinizations. You seem to be comfortable with them so why not??? The “u” word is used by Rome frequently so I naturally thought that this was a latinization. However, as I mentioned before, if you feel this latinization is offensive then you much petition Rome to refraim from using in in official capacity.

StMarkEofE
Hmmm, you are wrong. Pope John Paul II told us to return to our traditions. There is no need to “petition” Rome on this matter.

So it seems that because we have returned to Communion with Rome as was in the Early Church, you think we should suffer latinizations? What about the Orthodox Churches here in North America that have latinizations, should they stay?

And just so you know, we are not “under” Rome.

Just more Orthodox bashing which is why I normally stay out of this topic at the forum.
 
oat soda:
a couple byzantine divine liturgies i went to had kneeling during the triasgon or sanctus, with a women reading the first lesson. at a syro-malabar liturgy, they had a women reader and the priest faced ad populum or towards the people.

i think women readers and mass facing the people is generally a abuse in the latin rite as well. as for the kneeling, i like standing better, but the priest was very old and i’m sure he and some of the parishoners are just use to it.
I don’t know if you know this, but kneeling is a sign of repentace Only in the Eastern Rites, AND kneeling is only required during the Great Fast (Lent). Of course too, the priest is supposed to face East or toward the Icon of the Theotokos which is behind or above the altar. The priest Leads the People just like in the old tradition of the Church.
 
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Edwin1961:
Member of the CAF 5K club.
Hey, me too! I know there is also HagiaSophia. She has hit 7000 plus. How many in the CAF 5K Club? Does this get us any sort of privileges, immunity, free latte and Danish with the CA staff? 😃
 
This post:
Fr Ambrose:
But wouldn’t there be the likelihood that in the general Catholic sections your messages would attract little interest. The regular Roman Catholic is either not too interested or not too well informed. In an odd sort of way, you are better of with us in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section where you can be sure of a good response.
is precisely why I suggested that Easter (Orthodox & Catholic) issues belong in their own MAIN forum, right on the front page.

While Eastern Catholics and Orthodox Christians have much in common with each other, they also have much in common with Latin Catholics.

The “Non-Catholic Religions” ought to be a place for Protestants, Muslims & Jews, and hard-to-group non-Christians such as Jehovah’s Witnesses & LDS.

Since my last post, I spoke with two Ukrainian priests and one Melkite priest – all three of them were adamant that “uniate” is both *offensive *(in it’s frequent derogatory use) and flammable, as well as simply not needed.

We all know that that term has significant baggage associated with it. What purpose would it serve to use it when it incites such reactions in our brothers and sisters in Christ? Just because the term can be found in different documents doesn’t justify its use when Eastern Catholics have specifically asked that it not be used.

Fr. Ambrose mentioned that some Orthodox use “Immaculate Conception” in a derogatory way but that does not stop us from using that title. I would politely suggest that your analogy is slightly off-mark.

“Immaculate Conception” is not a term that is thrown at another person in a derogatory fashion. “Uniate” has been used in precisely that manner on a great number of occasions for many years. Furthermore, the normal, that is regular, understanding of “Immaculate Conception” describes an event in history, not a human being that is reading this thread. Finally, we could find all sorts of references to “nigger” in various historical writings, but that wouldn’t justify its use. We could even look up the word in the dictionary and find that it means “lazy” and therefore argue with an African American person that they misunderstand the term. It would be fruitless – it is (or has become) an offensive word.

“Uniate” carries more baggage than it is worth arguing over. It is (or has become) offensive – whether that is from derogatory usage or from the term itself is, to me, academic.

One last thought - re-locating (or creating anew) a main forum topic for Eastern Christianity might draw further attention to such issues and increase Latin Catholic’s interest and/or awareness of the beauty of the East.

Glory to Jesus Christ,
 
I really don’t have a problem with the term Uniate, simply because it reflects an actual condition that exists. Specifically, the fact that certain Eastern churches are under the authoritative jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome. I don’t mean to be rude, but if it walks like a duck…
I agree that Eastern Catholics are more like us than they are Roman Catholics, sans the fact that they are under the jurisdiction of the Roman See. However, they cannot be called Orthodox. Personally, I would like to see all of us contained under one subject heading for the sake of theological similarities, but as a certain Byzantine Catholic pointed out, the Roman Catholics are your “brethren”. Therefore, I feel the term “uniate” is appropriate.
 
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livingtashlikh:
I really don’t have a problem with the term Uniate, simply because it reflects an actual condition that exists. Specifically, the fact that certain Eastern churches are under the authoritative jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome. I don’t mean to be rude, but if it walks like a duck…
We are in communion with Rome with our own hierarchs. We are not under Rome no matter how many of you Orthodox make this claim.
I agree that Eastern Catholics are more like us than they are Roman Catholics, sans the fact that they are under the jurisdiction of the Roman See.
Again, we are not under Rome.
However, they cannot be called Orthodox. Personally, I would like to see all of us contained under one subject heading for the sake of theological similarities, but as a certain Byzantine Catholic pointed out, the Roman Catholics are your “brethren”. Therefore, I feel the term “uniate” is appropriate.
We are Byzantine Catholics and it is because of posts like yours and your Orthodox brethren in this thread that I think we Byzantine Catholics should not be included with you in a section here.

After all, you treat us as some bastard child, even to the point of telling us we do not have a right to our ancient tradtions and that we should keep the latinizations.
 
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livingtashlikh:
I really don’t have a problem with the term Uniate…QUOTE]

The name “Uniate” is regarded as a pejorative by all Greek Catholics, because it is disrespectful, though many historians continue to use it.

Sadly, many of the “scholars” who write about the history of the Greek Catholics are not even Christian. Use of the name “uniate” in any publication automatically indicates that the author is heterodox.

Stojgniev
 
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livingtashlikh:
I really don’t have a problem with the term Uniate, simply because it reflects an actual condition that exists.
The Byzantine Catholics are in the difficult postion of being sometimes misunderstood, and even resented by both the Catholics of the West and the Orthodox.

At one time not so long ago Roman Catholic priests would make disparaging remarks aboout the Eastern rite churches. I have heard the stories from Eastern Catholic priests directly. The way the words “Uniate” “schismatics” rolled off their tongues was clearly intended to insult (until quite recently Roman Catholics would refer to Eastern Catholics as schismatics, although from the Roman perspective they clearly could not be).

One story that particularly sticks with me had something to do with a prediction by a Roman priest bragging to a Ukrainian priest that within so many years the Roman church would “swallow up” the Ukrainian Catholic church! There hasn’t always been such a cordial relationship between the churches as we have today.

The same is often true coming from Orthodox circles, a certain disdain for Eastern Catholics. The term technically should only apply to K’yivan Rus from the former kingdom of Poland, and possibly by extension to the TransCarpathian Rus from the Hungarian kingdom but some people take delight in using the term on Eastern Catholics from just about everywhere, including India and Africa!

The official documentation of the Roman Catholic church has used the term, it is true. They had been using it from the beginning, long before it had developed it’s qualities of derision. There are scholarly works and official decrees where this term can be found and sometimes when discussing these particular documents there is no way to avoid the words. However it is never used in those documants to deride or insult and we can usually understand these to be period pieces and innocent of malice.

I would suggest that all parties, Catholic and Orthodox respect the wishes of those in the Eastern Catholic churches who wish that the term be set aside. It is not all that hard to address their churches by the proper names or accepted terms. If we are going to have respectful dialog it is the very least that we can do.
 
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ByzCath:
We are in communion with Rome with our own hierarchs. We are not under Rome no matter how many of you Orthodox make this claim.

Again, we are not under Rome.

We are Byzantine Catholics and it is because of posts like yours and your Orthodox brethren in this thread that I think we Byzantine Catholics should not be included with you in a section here.

After all, you treat us as some bastard child, even to the point of telling us we do not have a right to our ancient tradtions and that we should keep the latinizations.
Your fathers chose Rome over Orthodoxy - your fathers chose Rome as a foster mother by abandoning their real Mother Church in the East. What else can one think? You consider “going home” means going to Rome. Going home is just what it means, returning to your roots and origins The Eastern Orthodox Faith.

StMarkEofE
 
[And just so you know, we are not “under” Rome.]

So you are not ‘under’ Rome. You are just ‘in communion with Rome’?

Can you possibly point us to the canons within the ‘Code of Canons of the Eastern Catholics’ which stipulate or verify this?

Can you perhaps reference some websites that indicates that the Latin Catholic Church has changed it’s administrative structure where it stipulates that to be ‘in communion with the pope’ no longer means to accept papal authority as final and supreme?

Orthodoc
 
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ByzCath:
Again, we are not under Rome.
You are most definitely under Rome. Patriarch Lubomir of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Chruch could not even ordain a new bishop last month without approval from the Pope. What Patriarch needs permission from another Patriarch to ordain bishops??!! 😦 As well as that he even needs Pope Benedict’s approval to shift a bishop from one diocese in the Ukraine to another diocese! This is a sign of how tightly even the largest of the Greek Catholic Churches is under the control of Rome.

For details please see
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=826384&postcount=79
 
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Stojgniev:
Use of the name “uniate” in any publication automatically indicates that the author is heterodox.
Stoij,

You’re making it up as you go. Tsk! Is the Vatican automatically “heterodox” for calling Greek Catholics “Uniates”?

Is this man “automatically heterodox”?
Professor Waclaw Hryniewicz, Catholic theologian and director of the Ecumenical Institute at Poland’s Catholic University of Lublin.

See his article at
wfn.org/2000/08/msg00054.html

Is Cardinal Casper “heterodox” for using the word? See the article above for an example. You can find lots more by reading through his speeches and lectures.
 
Originally Posted by ByzCath
Again, we are not under Rome.

It’s your own ‘code Of Canons Of The Eastern Church’ that defines that being ‘in comunion with Rome’ also means being ‘under Rome’. Somehow you all tend to ignore that fact -

Canon 43The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office(munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; **therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power inthe Church which he can always freely exercise.

**Canon 451. **The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy ofordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishopspossess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded. **2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always united in communion with the other bishops and with the entire Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, of exercising this function. 3. **There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.
**
Canon 571. The erection, restoration, modification and suppression of patriarchal Churches is reserved to the supreme authority of the Church. 2. Only the supreme authority of the Church can modify the legitimately recognized or conceded title of each patriarchal Church. 3. If it is possible, a patriarchal Church must have a permanent see for the residence of the patriarch in aprincipal city inside its own territory from which the patriarchtakes his title; **this see cannot be transferred except for a most grave reason and with the consent of the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church and the assent of the Roman Pontiff.
**
Canon 58: Patriarchs of Eastern Churches precede all bishops of any degreeeverywhere in the world, with due regard for special norms of precedence established by the Roman Pontiff.

=========

Canon 921. The patriarch is to manifest hierarchical communion with the Roman Pontiff, successor of Saint Peter, through the loyalty,veneration and obedience which are due to the supreme pastor o fthe entire Church. 2. The patriarch must make a commemoration of the Roman Pontiff as a sign of full communion with him in the Divine Liturgy and divine praises according to the prescriptions of the liturgical books and to see that it is done faithfully byall the bishops and other clerics of the Church over which he presides. 3. It is to be the custom for the patriarch to visit the Roman Pontiff and, according to the norms established especially for this, to send to him a report concerning the state ofthe Church over which he presides. Within a year of his election and then often during his tenure in office, he is to make a visit to Rome to venerate the tombs of apostles Peter and Paul and present himself to the successor of Saint Peter in primacy over the entire Church.

==========

Canon 1551. A metropolitan Church sui iuris is presided over by a metropolitan of a determined see who is appointed by the Roman Pontiff and assisted by a council of hierarchs according to the norm of law. **2. It is solely the right of the supreme authority of the Church to erect, modify, suppress and define thet erritorial boundaries of metropolitan Churches sui iuris.
**
Canon 1561. Within three months after episcopal ordination or, if already ordained a bishop, after the enthronement, the metropolitanis bound by the obligation to petition the pallium from the Roman Pontiff, which is a sign of his metropolitan power and full communion of the metropolitan Church sui iuris with the Roman Pontiff. 2. Prior to the imposition of the pallium, the metropolitan cannot convoke the council of hierarchs or ordain bishops.

You can go through the entire Code Of Canons of your church at -

http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM

Orthodoc
 
THIS IS AN APPEAL TO CA FORUM STAFF
AND ALL MODERATORS

Please create a sub-forum for Eastern and Oriental Catholics right on the main forums.catholic-questions.org page. Discussions about our Eastern and Oriental Catholic brethrens on the Non-Catholic Religions under Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have been leading to inappropriate, cruel, and uncivil posts in this part of the forum. Creating a sub-forum for them will give them a better opportunity to educate both Latin Catholics and orthodox and people of other faiths about themselves, their rites, and their traditions. It will further give them the space in this forum to properly defend themselves against hostilities and cruelties. And I believe any post that concerns the Eastern and Oriental Catholics in this non-Catholic sub forum be made sticky or automatically transferred to that Eastern and Oriental Catholics sub-forum. I pray that my request be heard. Thanks. 🙂
 
Lumen Gentium:
THIS IS AN APPEAL TO CA FORUM STAFF
AND ALL MODERATORS

Please create a sub-forum for Eastern and Oriental Catholics right on the main forums.catholic-questions.org page. Discussions about our Eastern and Oriental Catholic brethrens on the Non-Catholic Religions under Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have been leading to inappropriate, cruel, and uncivil posts in this part of the forum. Creating a sub-forum for them will give them a better opportunity to educate both Latin Catholics and orthodox and people of other faiths about themselves, their rites, and their traditions. It will further give them the space in this forum to properly defend themselves against hostilities and cruelties. And I believe any post that concerns the Eastern and Oriental Catholics in this non-Catholic sub forum be made sticky or automatically transferred to that Eastern and Oriental Catholics sub-forum. I pray that my request be heard. Thanks. 🙂
Yes that could be a good thing I guess, but it still smells like a ghetto to me. I do not understand what is so hard with just treating us as Catholics and putting threads in the appropriate topics as they stand today. I would suggest that the moderators just move them out of this topic to the appropriate one when/if they appear in this one.

But then maybe we could get these Orthodox who seem to think of themselves as experts on everything Eastern Catholic from misleading everyone on what the truth is.

I wonder what the reaction would be if I went to an Orthodox Forum and started to tell them how they are schismatics and other such derogatory comments that we Byzantine Catholics have had to suffer not only in this thread but in many others in this part of the forum.
 
Lumen, you have a point of course. But since the Eastern Catholic Churches are presented as the model by which the Orthodox Churches will eventually be integrated into the Catholic Church the Orthodox take a keen interest in what happens in the Eastern Catholic Churches. If integration ever occurs Rome will deal with us as she presently deals with the Eastern Catholics.

So you see why the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics have something in common? Their present reality is the future which Rome has in mind for us.

So when we see things such as Patriarch Lubomir and the Synod of the Ukrainian Church being unable to ordain bishops or even to simply transfer them from one diocese to another without approval from Rome, it sets off alarm bells for the Orthodox.

I realise that you have never had any personal contact in Samoa with either Orthodox or Eastern Catholics and so you may not have quite grasped the full situation and how we interact.
Lumen Gentium:
THIS IS AN APPEAL TO CA FORUM STAFF
AND ALL MODERATORS

Please create a sub-forum for Eastern and Oriental Catholics right on the main forums.catholic-questions.org page. Discussions about our Eastern and Oriental Catholic brethrens on the Non-Catholic Religions under Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have been leading to inappropriate, cruel, and uncivil posts in this part of the forum. Creating a sub-forum for them will give them a better opportunity to educate both Latin Catholics and orthodox and people of other faiths about themselves, their rites, and their traditions. It will further give them the space in this forum to properly defend themselves against hostilities and cruelties. And I believe any post that concerns the Eastern and Oriental Catholics in this non-Catholic sub forum be made sticky or automatically transferred to that Eastern and Oriental Catholics sub-forum. I pray that my request be heard. Thanks. 🙂
 
The bottomline is** ignorance**.

That’s why there should be more education at the proper place and proper level in this forum.

I, a Latin Catholic for one, came to this forum ignorant of everything about Eastern and Oriental Catholicism. It took me several weeks in this – of all places – non-Catholic religions part of the the forum to understand everything amidst uncharitbale posts, quarrels and accusations of being a Latin “triamphalist.”
I should have picked them all up at once right from the front main page.
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ByzCath:
Yes that could be a good thing I guess, but it still smells like a ghetto to me. I do not understand what is so hard with just treating us as Catholics and putting threads in the appropriate topics as they stand today. I would suggest that the moderators just move them out of this topic to the appropriate one when/if they appear in this one.

But then maybe we could get these Orthodox who seem to think of themselves as experts on everything Eastern Catholic from misleading everyone on what the truth is.

I wonder what the reaction would be if I went to an Orthodox Forum and started to tell them how they are schismatics and other such derogatory comments that we Byzantine Catholics have had to suffer not only in this thread but in many others in this part of the forum.
 
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