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adgloriam
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alphawoman
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I believe God exists, and my logic leads me to that conclusion.
However, it stands that no atheist can ever disprove the existence of God, just as I can’t prove a theologically neutral universal negative.
However, it stands that no atheist can ever disprove the existence of God, just as I can’t prove a theologically neutral universal negative.
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adgloriam
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I’ll try to answer as simply and elegantly as I can.
Logic…What logic? Boolean logic? First-order logic? Noncommutative logic? Linear logic?
Proof…What proof? Natural deduction? Structural proof theory?
“Fides et Ratio”
But let’s forget for a minute today’s “dominant discourse” that is “scientific discourse”.
And yes, how would we apply science to human behavior, to freedom? Not being an “exact science” it would have to be a “social science”. And thus stochastic, both statistical and probabilistic. Exactness being recovered whenever verifying previous empirical findings that yielded mathematical distributions descriptive of the social object analyzed.
Let us escape all this, just for a moment.
Someone defined science as: repeatability. That is: given the same conditions, the same experiment yields the same result.
So, we certainly aren’t the first to believe, and likely won’t be the last. What does that previous accumulated experience and body of knowledge teach us?
Well, “general revelation” being God “revealing Himself” should give us the necessary insights into Divine nature that should allow us to bring forth on our part the necessary conditions to repeat the experiment and thus recover and verify causality that confirms repeatability.
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Nap66
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You have reached the essence of my OP. Why does God prod some more than others to believe in him? From my very limited experience in life (yes I don’t know everyone on planet earth), the ones I know who have no belief in God seem to have lives that are easier with less tragedy. There’s no reason to turn to a God because life is good. When my life was going good (and that was very short periods of time) I had no reason to really believe in God. It was only when my life turned to crap that my belief solidified. Would a bout of crapiness in an atheist’s life turn that person to God? Or does God already know that would not happen so why bother? Of course people say that God doesn’t cause crap in your life but I believe he does at times to gain greater good, and especially the greater good of you returning to a belief in him.
I thank you adgloriam for your thoughts and observations. Even the atheist I spoke of in my OP said to me the other day that I’m alot slower now… Slower. What I told him was that I am more at peace now. Of course I still don’t know why God does what he does on this earth, but I’m getting to the point of accepting it. I back slide of course when I see evil triumph or non-justice at work, but then I try to realize that in the end… better things await for me.
That’s what an atheist doesn’t have - the hope of better things awaiting for them after this life. Maybe that’s why God gives them the better things in this life.
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adgloriam
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Ohh gosh @Nap66 thanks for those lovely laughs 
I found both wording and observations of very very good humor which is indeed a sign of the Holy Spirit as pope Francis said just recently in “Gaudete et exsultate” 122-128. I loved that post !!!
It’s way past my bedtime here in Europe so I’ll answer at a latter time
God bless
I found both wording and observations of very very good humor which is indeed a sign of the Holy Spirit as pope Francis said just recently in “Gaudete et exsultate” 122-128. I loved that post !!!It’s way past my bedtime here in Europe so I’ll answer at a latter time
God bless
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FiveLinden
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It all depends what you mean by ‘God’. For most definitions, the test of fallibility is not met. That is, the proposition "God exists’ cannot be falsified by any possible experience. If I put forward the hypothesis that there is a god, she made all things, she is a rainbow-coloured dolphin, and created us all and everything just like we are now with all our thoughts and memories and the appearance of age in the earth and the structures we take to be made by people, and did so 5 minutes ago, there is nothing you can find or imagine that would falsify the proposition. It is therefore not something that can be addressed by science. Most ideas of god are like this and this is why you will not find science attempting to research these hypotheses. There is no point.
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adgloriam
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alphawoman
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The beauty of God is that he reveals himself to different people in ways that they are most able to receive and appreviate.
For me, logic did it. For others, it’s observing the seeming irrationality of heroic charity of people caring for others who can never give back to them. For others, it’s the majesty and intricate interconnectedness of the cosmos…
God’s marvellous, and he leaves us many ways to marvel at him!
For me, logic did it. For others, it’s observing the seeming irrationality of heroic charity of people caring for others who can never give back to them. For others, it’s the majesty and intricate interconnectedness of the cosmos…
God’s marvellous, and he leaves us many ways to marvel at him!
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FiveLinden
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This is observed in many living creatures, notably ants and bees, who regularly give up their lives for the good of others. It seems likely that human altruism evolved from such origins as a way of ensuring greater survival of close relatives and hence one’s own genes. It is an instinct, like liking children. Sometimes such instincts are so strong that the flow over into extreme behaviours, or behaviours that are not of particular advantage, like loving baby hedgehogs or kittens. God is not required as an explanation for altruism.
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alphawoman
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Yes. I think the book Sapiens makes some good arguments for social and biological roots of altruism.
However, biology doesn’t explain personal sacrifice for those outside one’s immediate community, where there is no financial benefit, and charity is not observed by others for plaudits. Of course, it can be argued that there’s self esteem value from doing good works, but I contend that aspect of charity reaches diminishing returns quickly, and generally before the limit of charity actually undertaken.
And I love the line about hedgehogs. Lol!! Makes me imagine a group of hedgehogs somewhere chattering about irrational love of humans…
However, biology doesn’t explain personal sacrifice for those outside one’s immediate community, where there is no financial benefit, and charity is not observed by others for plaudits. Of course, it can be argued that there’s self esteem value from doing good works, but I contend that aspect of charity reaches diminishing returns quickly, and generally before the limit of charity actually undertaken.
And I love the line about hedgehogs. Lol!! Makes me imagine a group of hedgehogs somewhere chattering about irrational love of humans…
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HerCrazierHalf
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Besides a certain joy of helping others I suppose “egotistical altruism” is a possibility. If others do well then we all do well. For example, I support a charity that helps homeless children with schooling. I don’t live in the county they operate in. I could drop my funding by computer without another soul’s knowledge. But beyond the good feelings I’m attempting to make a better world for all … including me.
I still ponder whether or not charity and generally altruism is self centered in a round about way. I’m hoping others will assist me in my time of need as I assist those in my time of excess. I’m going to improve the world for others and indirectly myself.
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FiveLinden
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Hmmm. I don’t agree with people who think we humans act out of self interest. Rather I think we have evolved to mostly act out of group interest. If we define people as being in our group our altruism clicks in.So I spend a fortune on my dog but kill mice. One is on and the others out. I don’t believe that self-denying altruism is a benefit to the individual but to the group. That is why people do it to the extent of giving up their lives.
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MountCarmel
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Hmmn, when it comes to atheists, the question arises, how many really/genuinely don’t believe there is any deity, and how many just don’t want to believe in one - mainly because to believe in one just might get in the way of their own [more convenient] ‘moral and ethical’ rules and considerations?
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PickyPicky
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Well, yes, it can hardly be because they have come to an honest opinion, can it? Do you mind, @MountCarmel, if I take just a little bit of offence at your insinuation?
It’s fascinating just how many people here who have never met me feel able to make detailed statements about me. And how many of those detailed statements turn out to be derogatory.
Atheists and believers are just people — people who have come to different conclusions about a subject on which a multitude of opinions can be (and indeed are) honestly held.
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Mike_from_NJ
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You may find it useful when you come across a term that you are not familiar with to use the internet to do some incredibly quick research. I popped it into Bing and got “quotation marks used around a word or phrase when they are not required, thereby eliciting attention or doubts,” which exactly is how and why you used them in your earlier post.Mike_from_NJ:
One, didn’t see any “scare”.
The original post certainly didn’t limit the scope of atheists to be discussed as those in Western secularized countries, but I’m more than willing to present several examples.
Here’s a paper from the NYU Law Review listing a few cases where custody went against people who weren’t full-fledged believers. It’s long and I’m not expecting this to be read in depth. Just look at pages 633, 634, and 635 and the footnotes list several cases. Also note that it’s by no means exhaustive.
We can talk about those who have gotten heat from their families for announcing their atheism. You don’t even need to check out the various testimonials online, since when you check CAF you’ll find stories of people who have had the same troubles announcing their Catholicism to their non-Catholic family.
It’s probably just easier to check out this Reddit thread if you want to see various examples of trouble modern atheists have had in their lives.
By claiming that atheists can’t come to their atheist through study (whether it be through anything from not being knowledgeable to outright bearing false witness) then, yes, it’s an attempt to undercut their reasoning without addressing it whatsoever.
How often are people told to place faith over reason? Where does a childlike faith in God, something that is praised without question, come from if not from feelings?
I’m not sure how to respond to that. You interact with atheists here and yet you seem unable to even fathom the notion that they might have come to their conclusions honestly and thoroughly. I can do the same for theists even though I disagree with them.
Bury your head long enough and eventually everything tastes like sand.
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Mike_from_NJ
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The Catechism is not grounded in facts. It presupposes conclusions and then stitches together any bits it can find to “prove” (see, scare quotes) that their conclusions are true. Religion is neither provable nor falsifiable (the latter of which means there is no methodology by which it could in theory be disproven). We have to go through life either being convinced or not of religious ideas, either have doubts or be sure of where we stand. While I do not believe your God or any god exists, I allow that the topic is so vague and nebulous that I could be wrong. What I’m getting at is while Catholics may be right, there is no way on God’s green Earth that the Catechism can be described as having rigor in showing Jehovah must exist.
I agree that to some degree modern Western cultures have moved away from religion, although you must admit that of the Western nations the United States has moved away from religion at a far lesser degree. None of this shows that atheists have an “easy life”. For some (not all) there is a struggle in not only being an atheist but also announcing to others that one is an atheist. The evidence is right there – beyond all of the sand.
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glorybe
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My father was an atheist. He committed suicide when he was 49. I don’t think life was very easy for him.
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MountCarmel
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PickyPicky - Did I claim that there were no atheists who simply and ‘honestly’ have come to a conclusion there is no God/or god(s)? What I said was in the form of a question - a genuine question, thankyou. My own, none atheist opinions are personally based upon my understanding of God through both faith, history, AND science {as far as current reasoning and logic in that field will take us. p.s. Didn’t Stephen Hawking make some real bloopers in his old age!?
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BrunoMaria
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To say “atheists rejecting and even lauhing at God, do in indeed seem to have easier lives”, lacks any foundation.
Facts look different.
For to whom should an atheist talk when he’s alone?
Whom to confide in? Ask whom for help?
A lone atheist is truly alone and abandoned by God. A Christian has God and is never alone. Yes, he HAS GOD as I got a friend. But ow much more is God than a friend?!
I for one had a lot of help - not just by belief and believing in God, but also direktly from God - which was evident.
Furthermore an atheist thinks - after death there is nothing. What then makes much sense in life? Just to be for a while - nothing after? How dreadful!
Facts look different.
For to whom should an atheist talk when he’s alone?
Whom to confide in? Ask whom for help?
A lone atheist is truly alone and abandoned by God. A Christian has God and is never alone. Yes, he HAS GOD as I got a friend. But ow much more is God than a friend?!
I for one had a lot of help - not just by belief and believing in God, but also direktly from God - which was evident.
Furthermore an atheist thinks - after death there is nothing. What then makes much sense in life? Just to be for a while - nothing after? How dreadful!
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PickyPicky
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Sure, so if I said something equally ridiculous about Catholics but posed it in the form of a question? Say, The question arises how many Catholics believe in confession because it allows them to sin and get away with it? Say I posted something as ridiculous and unpleasant as that — you wouldn’t regard that as insulting to Catholics?
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