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TheLittleLady
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I’d edit to say seen by SOME Catholic bioethicists. There has not been a decree from Rome on the matter.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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Exactly.
And some of the reason is rooted in that gender dysphoria is a symptom—a subjective phenomenon. Where the cause is unknown.
The Church doesn’t “rule” on symptoms, whether that symptom is a headache, itchy skin or disliking ones own body.
Another is that this is a fairly new psychiatric phenomenon.
The Dysphoria-From-Birth variant doesn’t emerge in the literature until the late 1800s.
The late onset variant wasn’t seen until very recently. Late 1900s (and I’m being very generous with that estimate).
Furthermore, because of the politication and weaponing of anything surrounding “gender identity”,
we aren’t even allowed to study it.
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Veritas6
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- I talked to Trent Horn in person about this question and he told me we can call anyone by their preferred name, a name is just a name, but I cannot call a man a woman because that is lying and doesn’t correspond to truth.
- If a biological male wants to be baptized he cannot lie about who he is fundamentally, even if he doesn’t feel like a man.
- Christians are called to live in truth and not lie to themselves. A transgender woman will always be a man biologically, and is called to remain a man. If he suffers from gender dysphoria, it doesn’t give him any more license to live a delusion any more than the schizophrenic patient who is convinced dragons live in her bedroom.
- Christians cannot transition genders, but a girl I know has St. Maximillian Kolbe’s name as her patron (she is not transgender). Check with your priest, but I wouldn’t think names make much of a difference.
- A biological male can only marry a biological female. No lying here thank you.
- If it was a forced transition early on they might have difficulty but Christians are called to live as their biological gender or sex.
- Christians cannot live in sin and convince themselves of delusions.
- Christians must conform to the truth and be who they are fundamentally, not what they perceive to be.
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rosejmj
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I doubt they would need to detransition. I also think that if they did transition that people would refer to them by the pronouns they look like(so if a male transitioned to female with hormones and surgery people would refer to them as she because that’s what they look like). One can choose any confirmation saint of any sex and probably even baptismal name of any sex. It’s a complex issue that I’ve never heard addressed, but assuming they have already undergone physical transition, it would be difficult to de transition and would not be required although maybe a priest would suggest therapy that seeks to treat gender dysphoria without transitioning. It would also be difficult and take a toll on the person if they had to de transition socially as well as physically and I don’t think it should be expected m. Gender dysphoria is real problem and people are just doing the best they can to live with it.
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rosejmj
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It’s not our duty to allow or not allow people to live a certain way because you believe it’s unethical or a lie. While you don’t have to agree with them, it’s often not ones place to try to convince them that what they are doing is wrong- especially with something like transgenderism where correction or convincing might just further push them away
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Veritas6
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Our duty as Christians are to love others. Loving someone is willing them to heaven. I will the best for this person (heaven), and them living in a lie–without repentance–will damn them to hell. The wrong approach is to condemn them and hate them. That is NOT the Christian way. I want them in heaven, so I desire a friendship with this person and be their support. We are not called to be tolerant of other people’s sins, but to love as God loves:
“Of course, for Aquinas to love means to consistently will and choose the good of the other. To love neighbor as self means seeing their sharing in the good as constitutive of your own sharing in the good. To love God, whose good we cannot will strictly speaking — as He is purely actualized good itself — is to love what God loves, which, of course, is the neighbor’s good. So we come full circle.”
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rosejmj
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The problem is that people have free will. We can force people to act a certain way
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Mrchatsworth
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Liked your list answers.
My two cents worth
My two cents worth
- Outside of the actual pastor of the parish I’m not sure anything can be enforced in regards to pronouns. I’d imagine most would oblige but some may not. You can’t really make sure someone in the pew or on a committee says ma’am when it’s a sir.
- Yep, many youth candidates for confirmation choose opposite gender saints as well.
- As far as gender specific groups within the parish, I’m guessing they wouldn’t be denied a men’s conference or women’s conference or bible study, but as far as youth programs (retreats) or bathrooms go you would need to identify with your biological true gender.
Yes, and this “compassion and love” needs to include understanding that many of these people truly, to the very core of their being, think and feel like they are the gender opposite to their biological and chromosomal one, and that they are indeed “trapped in the wrong body”. The closest thing I can imagine, is if I were to wake up tomorrow morning, and my physiology notwithstanding, everyone were united with one voice in affirming that I am a female. Then I would be expected to deny what I am, be told “you should think of yourself as a female, you should feel like a female, you have to live life as a female, and you must like men”. That wouldn’t be to my liking, and that is putting it mildly.
I can’t condone having one’s body mutilated, nor taking hormones to “make yourself more like the gender you feel like you are” (assuming that would even work, if you were a male taking estrogen, or a female taking testosterone), but I am not convinced that someone in this predicament can simply be told “come on, now, this is your biological gender, that’s just the way it is, and you need to get your mind right and get rid of all this gender dysphoria business”. I don’t understand gender dysphoria, because I don’t experience it, but I have to assume these people are sincere and can’t help the way their mind works. Who would ever voluntarily decide to have gender dysphoria?
Intersex is another matter entirely.
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LilyM
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There are some (admittedly rare) who are genuinely born intersex - as in with mixed male and female reproductive organs and/or other biological markers of being male or female such that they actually are of indeterminate sex.
So.right off the bat it is incorrect to say there is only male or female.
Of course this does not apply to the vast majority of transgender persons, but it means we do need to be careful not to lump every case into the same basket.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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Intersex is a birth defect, not a third sex and here’s why…
Biological sex is for reproduction. Father (man) makes sperm, mother (woman) produces an egg.
At no point is a third or alternate cell needed or produced.
I know many men who have taken female saint names (not only Mary) at their confirmation, so I can safely tell you that this is allowed.
As far as the other questions go, I am sorry but I have no idea.
I have personal opinions, but opinions are like bellybuttons everyone’s got one.
The best advice anyone can give you on these forms is to tell this person to talk to their pastor and to be honest and upfront.
Also, I’m thinking of It’s Pat, for those who don’t know/remember it was a somewhat crude snl skit that even got adapted into a film.
Edit.
Removed picture of movie poster as has been (privately) pointed out that it may be considered offensive, which was certainly not my intent.
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LilyM
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So what biological sex is someone who is born with mixed attributes of both male and female then?LilyM:
Intersex is a birth defect, not a third sex and here’s why…
Biological sex is for reproduction. Father (man) makes sperm, mother (woman) produces an egg.
At no point is a third or alternate cell needed or produced.
As I said, sometimes it is truly unabke to be determined, so you cannot simply say they are a “defective male” or a “defective female” - at least not without serious risk of being wrong.
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This is a very good question, and I’m not sure how my approach would be judged morally, so I would say above all else this decision should not be taken lightly and after much prayer.
But I would say that it would probably be best determined by an ethical medical professional with some level of expertise in this peculiar/particular field, perhaps the child’s true gender could be determined by studying and monitoring their testosterone/estrogen levels?, or something along these lines and make the necessary changes/adjustments to reflect the correct gender based upon all available information, it would perhaps be best to do this during infancy if possible.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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Even if a person had a birth defect that made them capable of self-fertilization, the binary model still holds because it still took a sperm and an egg cell to produce the pregnancy.
There was still no third cell.
A case like that would be, admittedly, pretty cool.
There was still no third cell.
A case like that would be, admittedly, pretty cool.
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FrostArcana
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Could they morally fertilize themselves? It appears Church dogma has outcast any self-fertilization activity, in case it ever happens. Catholic doctors of theology remain divided… 
Yes, I know all about Pat. However, s/he was genuinely of ambiguous gender (i.e., in the way s/he was presented in the show, not suggesting that s/he was meant to be an intersex character) — that was the whole joke, constantly dancing around and skirting any attempts to identify Pat as one gender or the other. Ralph, on the other hand, was known by everyone to be female, but dressed as a male and had a male’s name. There was no ambiguity, it was just a plot device, a running joke. I don’t recall what pronouns Ralph used. Green Acres was a surreal show, just as The Addams Family was about a wholesome, loving family who just happened to have death and the macabre as lifestyle accessories.HomeschoolDad:
Also, I’m thinking of It’s Pat, for those who don’t know/remember it was a somewhat crude snl skit that even got adapted into a film.
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LilyM
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And what happens when the experts say that the biological markers are simply too ambiguous and they cannot give you an answer?LilyM:
This is a very good question, and I’m not sure how my approach would be judged morally, so I would say above all else this decision should not be taken lightly and after much prayer.
But I would say that it would probably be best determined by an ethical medical professional with some level of expertise in this peculiar/particular field, perhaps the child’s true gender could be determined by studying and monitoring their testosterone/estrogen levels?, or something along these lines and make the necessary changes/adjustments to reflect the correct gender based upon all available information, it would perhaps be best to do this during infancy if possible.
Because everyone MUST be, and be seen to be, male or female according to you, right? Can’t have any possibility of ‘other, correct?’ So you have to do something, according to you, right?
Do you flip a coin? Or what?
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No not according to me, according to the natural order, there is male and female, and in the rare instance that one is born intersex, it is not some third natural sex, or as you so eloquently put it “other correct”, it is a birth defect, that IMHO should be treated as such.
And what happens when the experts say it’s a boy or girl, would you move forward? or simply ignore and let that child grow up and go through life completely confused?
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