Eight transgender questions maybe more

[Rau]

Intersex is a birth defect, not a third sex

Yes, but I think the point is simply that these few cases might defy classification as male or female.

 

[Rau]

Because everyone MUST be, and be seen to be, male or female according to you, right? Can’t have any possibility of ‘other, correct?’ So you have to do something, according to you, right?

A better answer than “other” might be “not determined”. At some stage, practical considerations might get to a working answer - perhaps following the opinion of the individual concerned.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

Because everyone MUST be, and be seen to be, male or female according to you, right? Can’t have any possibility of ‘other, correct?’ So you have to do something, according to you, right?

No not according to me, according to the natural order, there is male and female, and in the rare instance that one is born intersex, it is not some third natural sex, or as you so eloquently put it “other correct”, it is a birth defect, that IMHO should be treated as such.

Well, is it fair at least to say that there are some who are born, and live their whole earthly lives, in such a state that none save God will be able to know whethee they are male or female?

In fairness we cannot arbitrarily assign a gender to such, nor make them do so themselves either. In that sense.we can only accurately describe them as ‘other’ in that they cannot be indisputably classified as being of either male or female gender.

 

[CathBoy1]

Well, is it fair at least to say that there are some who are born, and live their whole earthly lives, in such a state that none save God will be able to know whethee they are male or female?

I would honestly say that it is their cross to bear, and I’m certain it would be quite heavy, but as the old saying goes, God only gives you what He knows you can handle.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

Well, is it fair at least to say that there are some who are born, and live their whole earthly lives, in such a state that none save God will be able to know whethee they are male or female?

I would honestly say that it is their cross to bear, and I’m certain it would be quite heavy, but as the old saying goes, God only gives you what He knows you can handle.

Not my point! What do you put on the birth certificate, drivers licence or passport of such a person if you cannot allow for a category of “other” (and remember you are the one saying you cannot).

 

[CathBoy1]

Not my point! What do you put on the birth certificate, drivers licence or passport of such a person

I’m not really sure, that’s a great question.

Edit.
Perhaps intersex?

if you cannot allow for a category of “other” (and remember you are the one saying you cannot).

I said no such thing, please do not put words in my mouth.

 

[kapp19]

• Can they always be called by the preferred pronoun and name or is this some type of lie?
• Do they have to disclose their status when getting baptized and converting especially if they are passing?
• Do they have to attempt to detransition if they convert, or may they keep on living the way they have been?
• May they take a Saint name of the gender they please?
• If not impotent, may they have a valid Catholic marriage to the opposite biological sex (if a trans woman they would marry a female, if a trans man they would marry a male), do they have to detransition for this?
• If they have partially transitioned may they complete the process after baptism?
• Is wearing clothes of their preferred gender considered crossdressing and if so is it a sin?
• Especially if passing, after their conversion may they participate in parish life as the gender they prefer (attending gendered events, etc) or is this considered a type of sin?

Some short answers…there is some more nuance, but basically:

1- It’s more or less a lie and they do not have the right to force you to pretend their world is real.
2 - Yes.
3 - Yes, they must detransition.
4 - Not really.
5 - Yes, unless the sexual act is impossible.
6 - No.
7 - Yes.
8 - No, it is a sin.

-K

 

[MNathaniel]

1. This is the only answer I think I can help with. Under normal circumstances, yeah, I think you’re allowed to choose any Confirmation name you want, regardless of saint’s gender. I mean, I know many nuns who took the names of male saints (Peter, Thomas, John, the list goes on…), and monks who incorporate a female name into theirs (usually variations on Mary, but I don’t know if exclusively).

The only potential ‘issue’ I’d see here is with what’s in the best interests of the person in question, and what’s driving their heart to choose the name. Sometimes the motivation of the heart is what determines the rightness or wrongness of an otherwise neutral action.

If one is entirely motivated by wanting to be called by an other-gendered name, that might be a red-flag reason, and I hope they have a trusted priest to work through that with. I don’t imagine it’d be prohibited (and maybe this isn’t the place to start the baby steps), but am no pastor myself and wouldn’t want to step on toes if for some reason the actual pastor sees fit to try to help the person not take on a name that may interfere with a coherent sense of self that the Church is trying to help them learn with regards to the goodness of their own body.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

No more than a heart defect implies a different type of circulatory system.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

LilyM:

And what happens when the experts say that the biological markers are simply too ambiguous and they cannot give you an answer?

And what happens when the experts say it’s a boy or girl, would you move forward? or simply ignore and let that child grow up and go through life completely confused?

Different experts say different things. I think the litmus test has to be “what gender do you feel like you are?”. It’s not impossible that an intersex person might be, for instance, more or less “male” with some “female” characteristics and traits, yet feel like she is female. It might even be a variation on the theme of gender dysphoria.

I realize that in some Catholic circles, the word “feel” or “feelings” is disliked and derided, because Catholicism is in many ways more of a “head” religion than a “heart” religion. I prefer rational, according-to-Hoyle, black-and-white distinctions myself, but that’s not always possible.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I think the litmus test has to be “what gender do you feel like you are?”.

But here’s the problem…

If it were just a matter of hairstyles and clothing and playing with pronouns, it would be easy enough to look the other way and let a person figure it out for themselves.

But what’s actually happening is teens are being enticed to take sterilizing and disfiguring meds without so much as a psyche eval

-AND-

Laws are being written and enforced to back all this up.

And we don’t even know what transgenderism is or what causes gender dysphoria

Bad law and bad medicine.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I think the litmus test has to be “what gender do you feel like you are?”.

But here’s the problem…

If it were just a matter of hairstyles and clothing and playing with pronouns, it would be easy enough to look the other way and let a person figure it out for themselves.

But what’s actually happening is teens are being enticed to take sterilizing and disfiguring meds without so much as a psyche eval

-AND-

Laws are being written and enforced to back all this up.

And we don’t even know what transgenderism is or what causes gender dysphoria

Bad law and bad medicine.

Just to clarify, I was referring solely to intersex situations, where the body actually does have elements of both genders. Even though the body looks — and pardon me for having to be so crude — for instance, two-thirds male and one-third female, I can foresee the person being able to say "yes, that is true, but I feel far more female than male, it’s as though the ‘male aspect’ of my body, to the extent it exists, isn’t really ‘me’ ". In that the person is already intersexed to begin with, if the person wants to be defined more clearly “one or the other”, I have to think it might be licit to undergo surgery to make matters “entirely female”.

While chromosomes are important, there is the case of women (and they are women) who had androgen insensitivity system (AIS) in the womb, and even though they are XY (male) at a DNA level, everything develops as though they are XX (female), with the exception of not having ovaries or a uterus, having internal testes instead. They never know they are “male” until they find themselves unable to have periods, then a DNA test shows that they are XY, and an ultrasound (or X-ray, or whatever) shows that they don’t have a female reproductive system. There is outwardly nothing “male” about them, in fact, they tend to be very attractive females. To suggest “you have to be made into a male” is the height of cruelty and grotesqueness.

 

[Montrose]

Not trying to be snarky but what if they are born both? I had a friend growing up who was born with a penis but also had quite large boobs, no facial hair, a high pitched girls voice and according to doctors, female hormones. What happens to people like this?

And I apologize if this has been answered already. I just barely noticed this topic.

The Church insists doctors normalise intersex babies at birth with surgery.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I appreciate the clarification

 

[RuthAnne]

I’m not sure what that means to normalize them. He was anything but normal growing up. He finally became a she at about age 24 and has had an okay life since then.

 

[Rau]

Our duty as Christians are to love others. Loving someone is willing them to heaven. I will the best for this person (heaven), and them living in a lie–without repentance–will damn them to hell.

I think such judgements are best left to God. Best if you consider other ways to extend kindness I think.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

RuthAnne:

Not trying to be snarky but what if they are born both? I had a friend growing up who was born with a penis but also had quite large boobs, no facial hair, a high pitched girls voice and according to doctors, female hormones. What happens to people like this?

And I apologize if this has been answered already. I just barely noticed this topic.

The Church insists doctors normalise intersex babies at birth with surgery.

The Church says this? I’ve never heard that before. I find “sources, please” people to be one step up from calling someone a liar — it’s really off-putting — but that said, do you have a source for this? Not calling you a liar, just wondering where this comes from.

I know post-WWII American society, where everyone was expected to conform to a litany of various ideals, and differences were disliked intensely, thought in this manner, and might have had this sort of expectation, but the Church? It’s the same kind of thinking that drove parents in this era to have their newborn sons circumcised, because “that’s what is done”, end of story. (We spared our son this mutilation.)

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Montrose:

It does not matter what a person thinks, says, does, how they dress, what drugs they take or surgery they may have done they remain what they were biologically born.

Not trying to be snarky but what if they are born both? I had a friend growing up who was born with a

Spoiler

penis

but also had

Spoiler

quite large boobs

, no facial hair, a high pitched girls voice and according to doctors, female hormones. What happens to people like this?

Leaving nothing to the imagination, eh?

Doesn’t bother me a bit, but some of the ladies down at the Legion of Mary meeting might have some issues with it.

This is precisely the type of intersex situation to which I referred above.

 

[Veritas6]

I think such judgements are best left to God. Best if you consider other ways to extend kindness I think.

I agree we cannot judge others, and I shouldn’t presume as I did. The fact remains if someone truly consents to gender transition and body mutilation, and we encourage this or don’t urge this person to reconsider, then we can be held accountable. It appears in these cases these people struggle deeply with delusions and might not always have rationality. In those cases we might not be able to hold them accountable, but we have a duty to prevent sin from happening, or at least prevent someone from destroying their body.

I suppose my example is about those who do know better about the consequences of their actions. If so, they can be held accountable for deliberately sinning and living a lie. I won’t presume here but we have a duty to help them along and love them enough to change their ways to get to heaven. We cannot force them, but that is how we Christians are called to love - to will the best of the other.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

We have somewhat bifurcation this thread. In one prong we are discussing transgender (note the small t) and in the other prong, we are discussing Intersex conditions. The two are NOT the same, nor should be treated the same.

There are two Intersex people in my extended family. Neither identify with, nor approve the transgender tendency to lump them into the same bucket.

It has been pointed out that sometimes the sex is not determinate. My sister had both outie and innie at birth. In the 50s, born in a doctors office, the doctor asked her parents to “pick one”. They guessed wrong.

It is not a case of “bearing your cross”, Her different parts went to war with each other.and she almost died. She had to “transition”. No choice.

Physiological issues are dealt with by the medical professionals. The Church doesn’t dictate that these people commit suicide, because, in many cases, that’s what it would be.

By the way, her original birth certificate showed female, but was “corrected” after the parents picked. Later in life she was corrected and birth certificate similarly corrected.

One does not change genders, but one can correct an incorrect “judgement”.